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Old Feb 25, 2013, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowflake6515 View Post

As for a crown in the runway, I believe that this was addressed by a previous poster. The crown will tend to make the bird lean away from "level" so the Guardian will try to correct with ailerons whereas I think you were hoping for rudder correction for ground tracking. Do a search and I'm fairly certain that others addressed this point.

Michael
That was me with my taildraggers. The nastier ones are biplanes. So yes I am looking for rudder correction on the take off run. The advice was to take off in 3d mode with heading hold on. It should work but haven't been able to maiden mine, so can't really report.

I just decided to buy one to try it out. Can't be worse than without one and if it helps my nice models from ending in the ditch and spare me repairs and epoxy, I will very happy.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 07:10 PM
Fokker,I didn't even kiss her
Bob Dunlop's Avatar
United States, VA, Fredericksburg
Joined Apr 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
Bob,

That is why I bought it. It is my first 1/4 scale plane. With a Guardian I figure I can sit in a lawn chair and fly it.

Bill
It's funny you say that...I already sit in a lawn chair when I fly mine
With the Guardian you might fall asleep
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...ostcount=15772
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by MichaelT1960 View Post
I am using my Futaba 14SG to switch from nor/off/3d modes but when I go into 3D (while running the software) the plane is shown as not being level! Switch to off or 2D and the plane is level. Tried to reset to neutral but does not good! Anyone know where the problem is?

During flight yesterday the 2D worked but when I switched to 3D it still seemed like I was fighting the model like in 2D. If I gave right aileron and return to neutral stick the model would go back somewhat to the left (like I gave left aileron). It also would not keep atitude...

I tried different gain settings (on the transmitter) and backed off from oscillations...

3D heading hold and Direct Rate 3D are both checked.

Help!

Thank you,

Michael
I think there is no problem. In some previous posts there was a better and more detailed explanation, but here is my short view to the logic:

- in 2D, Guardian compares the planes attitude against the reference level, that it knows from the last level reset = AHI (Artificial Horizon Indicator) locked
in reference to the ground and plane.
- in 3D, there is no such permanent reference level (it doesn't know/care where the earth is), it compares the planes attitude against the inputs you give, and the last reference defined by centering sticks. From Guardian manual: "last locked 3D heading".
Looking at the AHI indicator in 3D mode is thus confusing.

To the second part, how it behaves in 3D, I'm not expert, but I might experiment with ticking off the HH and leaving DR, it should free you from fighting against gyro.

I'm using T8FGS tx and I have one dial dedicated for master gain. I have 4 Guardians in use at the moment. I have tried to synchronize the dials effect with Guardian pots in each plane so that the dial's middle position in 2D stabilization mode gives pretty nice carefree flight behaviour. Then I can dial more gain for heavy winds and decrease when I want more control. And then there is one 3-way switch for 2D-OFF-3D mode selection, of course.

Hope this helps a bit.
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 05:59 PM
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United States, AZ, Queen Creek
Joined Aug 2004
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I lost my DLE 30 powered Katana today. I just rolled over to the left and crashed. I had the Guardian installed but turned off.With the Guardian turned off the aileron pulse still passes thru it. Would the vibration from the engine affect the Guardian as the aileron pulse passes thru it?
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 08:17 PM
Michael
United States, ME, Wells
Joined May 2008
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Vibration

Sorry to hear about your loss.

For gassers, most people use a double layer of the 3M exterior grade double-sided sticky tape (Home Depot / Lowes). However, that is for when the Guardian is in 2D or 3D mode, not OFF as you indicated.

My understanding of the Guardian is that, when in pass through mode, the gyros and accelerometers are not factored into the outputs and the only changes would be if you enabled elevon mixing (not likely with the Katana) or reversed the Aux channel. Still, that is logic programming and, again, does not rely upon the six internal devices.

My guess is that some other factor caused the roll-over; even vibration on, e.g., throttle linkage that, in turn, can effect some radio systems. Still, most folks using gas engines are aware of this and take precautions.

So, my guess is an aerodynamic problem, perhaps getting too slow and a stall/spin entry, recovery not possible, ...

This is pure speculation on my part, of course, and not something with which I normally get involved, but I would be very surprised if a Guardian, in the OFF position, could cause the problem.

Michael
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtybird View Post
I lost my DLE 30 powered Katana today. I just rolled over to the left and crashed. I had the Guardian installed but turned off.With the Guardian turned off the aileron pulse still passes thru it. Would the vibration from the engine affect the Guardian as the aileron pulse passes thru it?
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 10:27 PM
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United States, AZ, Queen Creek
Joined Aug 2004
797 Posts
The Guardian was mounted with two layers of double stick tape.
I have tested the Guardian mounted on oscillating sander and it completely destroys its ability to self level.
But then I had it turned off.
There is a possibility that it tip stalled but the aircraft was lightly loaded and I had about 1/2 throttle.
The radio was a 2.4ghz that I have flown many times before.2.4 dont glitch. It just will quit. If it wasn't a tip stall something caused the servo to go over. Maybe a bad servo.
I am going to test the servo ,tomorrow,and a test it when the pulse is passing thru the Guardian.
At any rate the Guardian needs more vibration isolation than double stick tape. I am thinking of suspending it with rubber bands like we did the receivers in the 50's
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 10:44 PM
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Canton, Michigan USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtybird View Post
The Guardian was mounted with two layers of double stick tape.
I have tested the Guardian mounted on oscillating sander and it completely destroys its ability to self level.
But then I had it turned off.
There is a possibility that it tip stalled but the aircraft was lightly loaded and I had about 1/2 throttle.
The radio was a 2.4ghz that I have flown many times before.2.4 dont glitch. It just will quit. If it wasn't a tip stall something caused the servo to go over. Maybe a bad servo.
I am going to test the servo ,tomorrow,and a test it when the pulse is passing thru the Guardian.
At any rate the Guardian needs more vibration isolation than double stick tape. I am thinking of suspending it with rubber bands like we did the receivers in the 50's
I want to here more about your success (or failure) with running a Guardian in a Gasser. I plane to put on in my new giant scale Hangar 9 Cub.

Of course, it certainly would be great if Eagletree representatives would chime in with some experience and input regarding sensitivity to vibration from Giant Scale motors.

Bill
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Old Feb 26, 2013, 11:01 PM
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USA, FL, Pensacola
Joined Mar 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daler View Post
I only fly in the 3D mode and do not have the Mode wire connected.
I would really like to be able to turn 3D Heading Hold on and off with a switch on my transmitter while in flight.

I know that this currently not an option, but is it possible with configuration or software changes?

Anyone have any ideas?

I got this response from Eagle Tree.
Daler

Tue, Feb 26 2013 11:02am - staff
We're adding your suggestion to our "feature request" list which our product development team reviews regularly for prioritization of future development projects.
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Last edited by Daler; Feb 26, 2013 at 11:10 PM.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 02:30 AM
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China, Shanghai
Joined May 2011
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Maidened my Guardian today in a maiden for a new lpane. Maybe not the best choice to start with but I figured that if the thing is as good as it says it should help correcting some bad trims or setup on a new plane. My plan was to take it up in 3D Mode with HH on, try 2d and then switch it off up high and see how bad the trims were really off.

The model is a WW2 warbird and taildragger. Taxiiing in front of the house had shown a strong pull to the left on accelleration. I don't have a knob on my Tx to control the overall gain, so I set the gain pots to about 75% on all 3 axis. Wind was calm. I started down the runway in 3D HH and the pull to the left was not so pronounced but the guardian was not able to fully correct it. I had to give a bit of right rudder, but it still ran down the runway diagonally to the left.

In the air 3D HH seemed ok, althought the nose kept pointing up, and corrections to straight flight did not help - when I let the sticks centre, the nose would point up again and the plane climbed. I must say, I set the CG according to the manual, and I had the feeling that it's a bit too far back for the model, nothing dramatic though. My expectation was that if I put the plane flying straight, that the guardian would keep it in that attitude and compensate for maybe a CG slightly back. Also it seemed to want to roll a bit. It kept a straight line so the guardian seemed to keep the rudder in line. So in 3D HH I had a bit off roll, and nose wanting to go up.

Switched to 2d and the most noticeable thing was again the nose up attitude and the bird climbing. I did a level and trim set on the bench at home and so it can be that in reality the plane was not level but slightly up, so the guardian might have been doing its job, but since it thinks the nose up is level, the plane just climbs.

in the end didn't really try it with the guardian off, just very shortly but not enough to really try it. In all, I'm holding final judgement for the second flight because at least I didn't really have any scary moments during the maiden, so could have been the guardian who saved me, but on the other hand it was no brake though moments.

I know that a lot of you will say I did it the wrong way around, and that I should have flown first with the thing off, trim everything properly and then try the guardian. Yes, I agree, but I wanted to try it the other way around just to see how effective this thing really is. Unfortunatetly I just had a short time in my lunch brake, so I was not able to test it fully like I wanted to. Hopefully it will come the next few days, and final judgement can be passed.

Any comments on the beahaviour that I described are of-course most welcomed.

Cheers

PS I didn't crash on a maiden - that's always good, right?
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadorey View Post
...
The model is a WW2 warbird and taildragger. Taxiiing in front of the house had shown a strong pull to the left on accelleration. I don't have a knob on my Tx to control the overall gain, so I set the gain pots to about 75% on all 3 axis. Wind was calm. I started down the runway in 3D HH and the pull to the left was not so pronounced but the guardian was not able to fully correct it. I had to give a bit of right rudder, but it still ran down the runway diagonally to the left.

In the air 3D HH seemed ok, althought the nose kept pointing up, and corrections to straight flight did not help - when I let the sticks centre, the nose would point up again and the plane climbed. I must say, I set the CG according to the manual, and I had the feeling that it's a bit too far back for the model, nothing dramatic though. My expectation was that if I put the plane flying straight, that the guardian would keep it in that attitude and compensate for maybe a CG slightly back. Also it seemed to want to roll a bit. It kept a straight line so the guardian seemed to keep the rudder in line. So in 3D HH I had a bit off roll, and nose wanting to go up.

Switched to 2d and the most noticeable thing was again the nose up attitude and the bird climbing. I did a level and trim set on the bench at home and so it can be that in reality the plane was not level but slightly up, so the guardian might have been doing its job, but since it thinks the nose up is level, the plane just climbs.

...
One guess is that Guardian is making adjustments in the correct direction, but that between how far Guardian is moving the servos and the control authority of the control surfaces, the combination does not have enough strength to counter
drift that exists.

Assuming that you have already tested on the ground that the control surfaces react in the correct direction to disturbances, the other thing that I can guess is to turn-up the gyro gains more.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 04:15 AM
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Get ready for this - I was just checking the plane to see if the tail wheel was maybe causing the problem on the ground by not runing straight or something. I had checked it before, but a second time never hurts. Indeed the bloody thing was a bit off centre which would turn my bird to the left. Strange, I thought, and started to adjust the linkeage to the tail wheel, only to find out that it was loose at the servo arm. So basically my tail wheel and rudder were loose!

this probably explains why the Guardian couldn't keep a straight take off roll - it was probably trying its damnest but couldn't turn the tail wheel or rudder - and since the linkeage wasn't completly loose it took off with a slight rudder right which would explain the roll to the left because it couldn't correct with the rudder in the air. If all my suppositions are correct, than bloody #&^%9q38764! the guardian probably saved my new toy today, and I didn't even notice! If I had taken off and flown with the Guardian off, I am not sure if my flying skills would have prevented a crash. I mean, it was not just flying with ailerons and elevator - the rudder was loose but not completly, so I actually did not have full rudder authority and the rudder was pushed or pulled a bit in one direction, but then stayed there - it did not return to centre and was then completly off trim!

Still does not explain the nose up tendency and why it didn't correct that...
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 04:21 AM
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Joined Feb 2013
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Artificial Horizon Logging?

Ok. It's late so maybe I'm just missing it, but how do I get the data from the Art. Horiz. to record to the eLogger V4? I don't see anything on my Guardian that would output this data to it.. Nor have I been able to locate set-up information regarding that. I'm certain there MUST be way, or clearly the option wouldn't be there.

When I live mode the Guardian directly, it shows up and works on my PC screen. However, when downloading the flight data recorder file and playing it back, the Art. Hor. gauge on my FDR screen doesn't move.

Suggestions? Information?
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by 3rdidvet View Post
Suggestions?
Yes. Post your question in a Guardian or V4 thread. Someone there might have input. This thread, as the title says, is for/about Guardian 2D/3D.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by gadorey View Post
Still does not explain the nose up tendency and why it didn't correct that...
Because you need to set your trims in flight (assuming 3D mode) and then do a "reset trims" on the ground. Without having the trims set, Guardian takes your stick inputs (even if you're just inputting to hold level) as a response request. Your stick movements don't just move the control surfaces like you're accustomed to, Guardian (in direct rate) takes them as aircraft response requests. Gotta give Guardian a good, trimmed, baseline to work from.
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Old Feb 27, 2013, 08:50 AM
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China, Shanghai
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Originally Posted by t.edwards View Post
Because you need to set your trims in flight (assuming 3D mode) and then do a "reset trims" on the ground. Without having the trims set, Guardian takes your stick inputs (even if you're just inputting to hold level) as a response request. Your stick movements don't just move the control surfaces like you're accustomed to, Guardian (in direct rate) takes them as aircraft response requests. Gotta give Guardian a good, trimmed, baseline to work from.
Ok, I understand that. But does it still hold true if I have the heading hold on? Shouldn't it then try to keep whatever attitude it has when I centre the sticks? In this case being level altitude.
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