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Old Jan 18, 2013, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by goldsworthy View Post
Sounds easy! but I lack the skills to do these modifacations. I have the money but they dont sell a 9X with all these mods allready done
Come on! Grow up. I'm a 72 year old geezer and found it very easy to do. And actually fun also.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 09:07 PM
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Canton, Michigan USA
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Originally Posted by goldsworthy View Post
Sounds easy! but I lack the skills to do these modifacations. I have the money but they dont sell a 9X with all these mods allready done
goldsworthy,

The 9X with upgrades has quite the following, almost cult-like. I have the skills but decided the upgrades and base QC problems with the 9X radio were not worth the investment in time. I know me saying this will require me to put on a firesuit. I bought a DX8 instead and use Guardians with my original DX7 and DX6i. Having the DX8 offers the proportional knob for gain adjustment but after running Guardians in a range of planes I doubt if I will use the remote master gain control with the DX8. I have found that once I dial in the initial pot gains for each axis I never change them.

Bill
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 02:03 AM
An Aussie in Chicago
Joined Apr 2012
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Originally Posted by Tudball View Post
hendrnk, don't tell my transmitter it won't work because so far it is working perfectly.
If you read my post I said some have made it worked in brackets.

I decided to change the switches and firmware to make it easier to work with. I couldn't make it work with stock firmware (Which I don't have any more). Also some Autopilots need 2 * 3 way switches for full functionality.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:07 AM
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Kingston Ontario Canada
Joined May 2006
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Master Gain

Once again, I ask:

What is the range of Master Gain?


Details:

We understand that at Servo travel = -100%, the Master Gain is 0, effectively being an OFF setting.

I take it from the Guardian manual that at Servo travel = 0, the Master Gain is 1.0 and therefore anything from 0 through +100 would then yield a Master Gain of from 1.0 to (2.0?).

Elsewhere in here, it was suggested that the Master Gain maximum is 1.0,
which would occur at Servo travel = +100%.

Which is true?

Despite what has been suggested elsewhere in here, I am not over-thinking this. It is a simple and obvious question and I have a very good reason to want to know. I see no reason why ET wouldn't want to make things as clear as possible.

BILLPA, can you help?
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:57 AM
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United States, AZ, Tucson
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Originally Posted by Galand View Post
Come on! Grow up. I'm a 72 year old geezer and found it very easy to do. And actually fun also.
You are a lucky man to have the skills at 72. I am 54 my only problem is I had a bad stroke and recovery is slow
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
It is difficult to say. The fact that you have a remote gain is a big help as you will be able to make some adjustments on the fly, but you can't adjust the relative gain without access to the individual pots. On the three sport planes I have, all three seemed to encounter oscillation on the ailerons more so than the others. If you hope not to have to remove the Guardian for adjustments later you could go with aileron at about 40% of max and the others at about 60%. On my planes these settings would be conservative. Aggressive settings would be 70% and 100% which would occasionally require me to back off the master, this is about where mine are set.
Thanks for your help I realise this is a difficult question to answer as every setup is different, but you took the time to give me ball park figures and I am prepared to give these a go. The fuselage of the aircraft has access only to the battery area, and therefore to get to the receiver/gaurdian arrangement meant mounting the gaurdian upside down in the battery hatch ceiling, a right swine to get to to adjust for future. But i think I may be able to get by now with those settings and hopefully only have to adjust the master gain.

cheers
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Deerslayer View Post
Once again, I ask:

What is the range of Master Gain?

...<snipped> ...

BILLPA, can you help?
Deerslayer,
I am not BILLPA but, I think the manual states that the range of the Master Gain is from 0% to 200%.

Here's the Master Gain as explained in the manual (hope it helps):
----
Stabilization “Master Gain” Control
The Guardian’s Gain input channel, when mapped to a knob (or slider) on your transmitter, serves as a Master Gain control. The Master Gain multiplies the individual Pitch/Roll/Yaw gains and serves as a way to easily tune all three. If you have an RC controller that has an analog knob, this can be mapped to the Gain channel to allow for in-flight stabilization gain adjustment. The higher the gain knob setting, the stronger the Guardian’s
stabilization effect will be.

The knob gives the ability to transition smoothly from stabilized flight to un-stabilized flight. Additionally, since changing airspeed can change your airframe’s flight characteristics, it is often helpful to be able to tune the controller in real-time. When this feature is used with 2D mode, the stabilizer’s control characteristics vs. the Master Gain control’s position is as follows:
  • -100% (1.1ms servo pulse): Stabilization is OFF.
  • -99% to ~0% (depending on Pitch/Roll/Yaw gain values): Medium Stabilization. As the Gain knob is increased from -100% deflection, the model becomes more stable. Depending on your knob selection however, the model may still be rolled by strong stick movements or turbulence
  • ~0% to 100% (1.9ms servo pulse, 200% Overall Gain): Maximum stabilization. The model should not roll over when in this range. Servo commands will become exaggerated, leading to tighter control of the plane. Oscillations may occur depending on the airframe.
------
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricoalonso View Post
Deerslayer,
I am not BILLPA but, I think the manual states that the range of the Master Gain is from 0% to 200%.

------
Thanks for your input!
Yes - that is my interpretation as well. Having said that, my understanding was shaken when someone else stated that 1.0 would be the maximum, i.e., when the switch was at the 100% location.

Now, what I have been doing on my DX7 is using the AUX2 toggle plus its trim slider. I can flip the switch down to effectively turn the Guardian OFF (I set the servo travel to -150% to ensure that regardless of trim setting the Guardian will see at least -100%). With the AUX toggle flipped up, and the servo travel in that direction set at something less than 100%, I have nice fine tuning adjustment for Master Gain. I may decide to set the servo travel max to a final value and disable the trim

Now, this Guardian will stay on my Mojo 25 plane, but I will replace the AR7000 7-channel Rx with an Orange 6-channel, leaving the Guardian locked into 3D and using the AUX2 as before.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 10:24 AM
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Kingston Ontario Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricoalonso View Post
Deerslayer,
I am not BILLPA but, I think the manual states that the range of the Master Gain is from 0% to 200%.

------
Thanks for your input!
Yes - that is my interpretation as well. Having said that, my understanding was shaken when someone else stated that 1.0 would be the maximum, i.e., when the switch was at the 100% location.

I have a set of notes which I keep updating. An early version is in here somewhere. I plan to introduce Guardian to some folks in our club and provide accurate information via these notes, also help others. Every answer to someone's question in here is important to me, even if it prompts a later correction. Thank you, again, for listening and helping me.

FYI:
What I have been doing on my DX7 is using the AUX2 toggle plus its trim slider. I can flip the switch down to effectively turn the Guardian OFF (I set the servo travel to -150% to ensure that regardless of trim setting the Guardian will see at least -100%). With the AUX toggle flipped up, and the servo travel in that direction set at something less than 100%, I have nice fine tuning adjustment for Master Gain. I may decide to set the servo travel max to a final value and disable the trim slider.

Now, this Guardian will stay on my Mojo 25 plane, but I will replace the AR7000 7-channel Rx with an Orange 6-channel, leaving the Guardian locked into 3D and using the AUX2 as before.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 10:50 AM
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Long Island, NY
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Originally Posted by goldsworthy View Post
You are a lucky man to have the skills at 72. I am 54 my only problem is I had a bad stroke and recovery is slow
Sorry, I did not know. Have speedy recovery!
If you want to, I can mod one for you. PM me.
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Last edited by Galand; Jan 19, 2013 at 11:05 AM.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deerslayer View Post
Thanks for your input!
Yes - that is my interpretation as well. Having said that, my understanding was shaken when someone else stated that 1.0 would be the maximum, i.e., when the switch was at the 100% location.
...

.
I'm glad it was helpful.

Yes, I understand your confusion and I also remember the same thing mentioned in the past. I even remember it was also mentioned that without the master gain connected, the master gain is at around 40% (as if the master gain control is set in the middle when it is connected). But, all these were later changed and updated together with a updated/new entry in the manual under Stabilization “Master Gain” Control section.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 01:20 PM
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Is there any way to increase the gain from the software?
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinowace View Post
Is there any way to increase the gain from the software?
You mean from the setup software (as in the Data Recorder software)? No, I don't think so... I don't think it has the capability of adjusting the gains thru that software. The only way is by manually turning the gain pots.
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Last edited by ricoalonso; Jan 19, 2013 at 04:27 PM. Reason: added text for clarity.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 03:00 PM
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yes, the setup software. I am wondering if there is a way of adjusting the gain using the computer?
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 05:09 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
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This discussion of gain is prompted by what seems to be an unfortunate choice of nomenclature by Eagle Tree. To begin with "percentage" of what, exactly are we talking about? In my mind it's percentage of maximum gain, which by definition is 100%. So with pots and master at max, this is the most gain we can get and should be 100%. Calling this 200% doesn't make much sense, but also doesn't make much difference.

Both the pots and master gain are uncalibrated analog knobs. When you turn them up you get more gain, down is less. Does it really matter what number is associated with the gain you are using? Typically you will adjust the gains for max gain short of oscillation and probably leave it there, perhaps dialing down the master occasionally. About the only time it seems to matter is when trying to communicate settings to someone else. If we communicate both the pot and master positions we should be fine.

The section of the manual quoted by ricoalonso stopped short of the line that says "The ranges given above apply when the Guardian gain dials are set to about +-50° from center", which is less than half travel. How does that alter the discussion? Also contributing to the confusion, it is rather difficult to determine with any accuracy how much gain you are actually experiencing. It might be interesting for someone with an uninstalled Guardian to set up a bench test. For instance, ET says with the gain plug disconnected, you get 40%, of 100%, or 200%? How does the gain change when the wire is plugged in and master at half, full position?

Deerslayer, you seem like the perfect person to set up such a bench test and determine how these settings actually translate to percentage figures.
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