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Old Jan 05, 2013, 03:01 PM
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Question: Could this unit be used as a completely independent (other than power) to stabilize a camera for pitch/roll ala~ the super simple job here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1793759
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 06:20 AM
Mike
United Kingdom, England, Thurstonfield
Joined Feb 2012
80 Posts
Question:
Can anyone advise me
I have installed the gaurdian stabiliser in my FunCub and with help from the manual and this forum it is working 0n the bench perfectly although I have not flown the plane as yet.
My question is:
I have an Hitec Optic5 Tx with a Gear/Cut Button on the 5th channel and I am using this as the 2D/3D toggle on the Gaurdian Mode input.
I believe I must disable stabilisation when I reset trims and level flight and without the center "0" mode switch this is not easy the only way I understand is to center all the pots which is a nusiance!
Will it be possible to electrically "open circuit" the servo wire which is connected between my receiver 5th channel and the Gaurdian mode input and would this effectivley give me the center "0" switch postion whilst on the ground. I could then reset my trims close the switch and fly in 2D/3D modes using the Hitec Gear button.

Any advise would be appreciated

Thanks a Lot

Mike
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 09:09 AM
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United States, OH, Loveland
Joined Feb 2007
354 Posts
I am reposting this question because I need an answer before I can finish my cub. How far off the center of the plane on the CG line can you mount the Gardian? Is 50mm to one side of the planes center to far? It is on the CG line but off from the center mark. Will it still work in 2D mode?
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Deerslayer View Post
Aha! That makes sense ... I think. In other words, if I had lots of Expo on a control, it might appear to me that I am moving the stick with no response (as opposed to the "delicate" or "soft" response I am expecting) until a certain point is reached.
I don't think so. Guardian is "fly by wire". It takes your inputs as desired responses not just control suface movements. Expo works very normally. In 2D, expo should just make the "box" seem bigger.

My 3D planes (with Guardian 2D/3D in 3D mode) all have expo settings very similar to what I flew without Guardian.
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 09:53 AM
Michael
United States, ME, Wells
Joined May 2008
1,064 Posts
CG Distance

On one of my models, I mounted my Guardian unit closer to 60mm to the side (profile, foamy), but on the CG, laterally. Zero problems, works great in 2D and 3D.

On another one of my models, I mounted my G unit about 60mm in front of the CG, but fairly close, laterally. Again, no problems.

My models range from fast EDF jets to foamy birds, to large scale models; once dialed in, I have not observed any problems.

Michael
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinowace View Post
I am reposting this question because I need an answer before I can finish my cub. How far off the center of the plane on the CG line can you mount the Gardian? Is 50mm to one side of the planes center to far? It is on the CG line but off from the center mark. Will it still work in 2D mode?
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 10:58 AM
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Joined May 2004
538 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by METATRON12 View Post
Question:
Can anyone advise me
I have installed the gaurdian stabiliser in my FunCub and with help from the manual and this forum it is working 0n the bench perfectly although I have not flown the plane as yet.
My question is:
I have an Hitec Optic5 Tx with a Gear/Cut Button on the 5th channel and I am using this as the 2D/3D toggle on the Gaurdian Mode input.
I believe I must disable stabilisation when I reset trims and level flight and without the center "0" mode switch this is not easy the only way I understand is to center all the pots which is a nusiance!
Will it be possible to electrically "open circuit" the servo wire which is connected between my receiver 5th channel and the Gaurdian mode input and would this effectivley give me the center "0" switch postion whilst on the ground. I could then reset my trims close the switch and fly in 2D/3D modes using the Hitec Gear button.

Any advise would be appreciated

Thanks a Lot

Mike

You should be OK with the setup you have....

Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
Reset Level Flight and Trims is from 2D to 3D and back or from 3D to 2D and back once.

Resets Trim is the same but twice.

Charles
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by t.edwards View Post
I don't think so. Guardian is "fly by wire". It takes your inputs as desired responses not just control suface movements.
T. Edwards, you have made a most important point. "It takes your inputs as desired responses not just control surface inputs."

Guardian has taken us a giant step into controls technology. Unfortunately there has been too little effort on the part of the manufacturer to help us understand this subtle but giant leap leap in how we fly. Controls engineers on full scale airplanes have given names to many of the advanced control schemes to help others understand. I think we need the language to help us as well.

First off, FLY BY WIRE means simply that a pilot's commands are transmitted to the surfaces by electrical signal, not cable or pushrod. U-control planes use cables and pushrods, therefore we call them MECHANICAL CONTROL SYSTEMS. All radio control planes are Fly By Wire and have been for over half a century.

So just saying "Fly By Wire" doesn't tell us enough. Now come the new words:

You can break Fly By Wire control systems into two broad categories. The first category, SURFACE DIRECT (or "Stick To Surface") tells us that we are directly controlling the movable surface. Our brains are compensating for such things as changes in sensitivity due to changing airspeed and we are simply adjusting our inputs to get the airplane reaction that we want.

The second Fly By Wire category is COMMAND AUGMENTATION. It is what the words imply. Some device (such as the Guardian) is AUGMENTING your COMMANDS. The Command Augmentation System (CAS for short) is looking at your stick inputs and interpreting them as desired airplane response. So the CAS then moves the surfaces in whatever manner is necessary to make the airplane respond as you have commanded. With a CAS, your "aileron" control stick is no longer commanding a surface deflection, but a roll rate or a bank angle. As a matter of fact, your aileron stick movement may be causing aileron, elevators and rudder all to move in order to achieve the precise bank angle or roll rate that you have commanded. That's why your surface response sometimes seems so puzzling when you test it on the ground. The Guardian needs airplane motion to "close the loop".

Both Surface Direct and Command Augmentation can have lots of submodes. Guardian 2D and 3D are submodes of CAS. This post has gotten too long already, so I'll stop for now. If there is enough interest, I will take the next step in a subsequent post.

Dick
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Last edited by otrcman; Jan 06, 2013 at 12:14 PM. Reason: better wording
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by otrcman View Post
So just saying "Fly By Wire" doesn't tell us enough. Now come the new words:

The second Fly By Wire category is COMMAND AUGMENTATION. It is what the words imply. Some device (such as the Guardian) is AUGMENTING your COMMANDS. The Command Augmentation System (CAS for short) is looking at your stick inputs and interpreting them as desired airplane response. So the CAS then moves the surfaces in whatever manner is necessary to make the airplane respond as you have commanded. With a CAS, your "aileron" control stick is no longer commanding a surface deflection, but a roll rate or a bank angle. As a matter of fact, your aileron stick movement may be causing aileron, elevators and rudder all to move in order to achieve the precise bank angle or roll rate that you have commanded. That's why your surface response sometimes seems so puzzling when you test it on the ground. The Guardian needs airplane motion to "close the loop".
Yes, just saying "fly by wire" isn't really correct, but Guardian does move us away from stick movent just giving a fixed control surface response. It really changes the game.

I believe guardian doesn't go as far as you're describing as "CAS". I believe aileron input only gives aileron response. At least in 3D, heading hold is dis-abled when you give aileron or elevator commands past a threshold point. We get heading hold with aileron and elvator inputs/sticks "centered". A great asset to me as it gives a moment to figure out "which way is up" again.
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 01:00 PM
Mike
United Kingdom, England, Thurstonfield
Joined Feb 2012
80 Posts
Thanks a lot sit-n-fly
I feel very happy with my set up understanding more every day with help.
Just need the courage to fly the Funcub now will give it a go when the rain and wind stops in the uk maybe 2015 lol

Mike
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 01:16 PM
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Joined Mar 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t.edwards View Post
I believe guardian doesn't go as far as you're describing as "CAS". I believe aileron input only gives aileron response. At least in 3D, heading hold is dis-abled when you give aileron or elevator commands past a threshold point. We get heading hold with aileron and elvator inputs/sticks "centered". A great asset to me as it gives a moment to figure out "which way is up" again.
The Guardian may not be a full Command Augmentation System in every mode. We can discuss the various Guardian submodes for a long time. CAS is just a general category. Remember that in a CAS system, moving the aileron stick while leaving the elevator and rudder untouched will be interpreted as, "move in roll axis but do NOT move in pitch or yaw". A non-command on the part of the pilot is seen as a command to not move. So if the airplane moves in pitch or yaw for any other reason, the Guardian may make a correction because it thinks that's what the pilot wants.

Dick
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by otrcman View Post
Remember that in a CAS system, moving the aileron stick while leaving the elevator and rudder untouched will be interpreted as, "move in roll axis but do NOT move in pitch or yaw".
Which would give a perfectly axial roll?
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by t.edwards View Post
Which would give a perfectly axial roll?
Yes, I think so. At least within the limits of the control surfaces. The electronic control system will always be limited by the aerodynamic capability of the airplane itself.

Dick
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 09:36 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
1,977 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by otrcman View Post
The second Fly By Wire category is COMMAND AUGMENTATION. It is what the words imply. Some device (such as the Guardian) is AUGMENTING your COMMANDS. The Command Augmentation System (CAS for short) is looking at your stick inputs and interpreting them as desired airplane response. So the CAS then moves the surfaces in whatever manner is necessary to make the airplane respond as you have commanded. With a CAS, your "aileron" control stick is no longer commanding a surface deflection, but a roll rate or a bank angle. As a matter of fact, your aileron stick movement may be causing aileron, elevators and rudder all to move in order to achieve the precise bank angle or roll rate that you have commanded. That's why your surface response sometimes seems so puzzling when you test it on the ground. The Guardian needs airplane motion to "close the loop".
The Guardian documentation indicates this type of behavior but I confess this has always been a point of logical disconnect for me. In 3D mode if this was strictly true then, while sitting on the workbench/ground, any aileron stick input should drive the ailerons to the limits as the guardian attempts to achieve the commanded roll rate with a plane that is immobile. This doesn't happen. In fact, the aileron behavior under these conditions looks pretty much like without a Guardian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by t.edwards View Post
Which would give a perfectly axial roll?
That would be nice but, not really. Remember, Guardian is only trying to hold position while the stick is centered. Clearly, if you are trying to roll the plane the stick is not centered. Once you move the stick off center the plane is free to move on all three axes, not just roll, so the nose is free to droop down. You can demonstrate this on the ground. Set 3D mode with the plane in an unusual attitude and set it down so that all three axes are at max deflection. As soon as you move the aileron, the aileron will move to the commanded position and the other two axes will center, no longer trying to hold their attitude. It would be interesting to see what would happen if each axis behaved independently of the others so that a roll command didn't relieve the other two of holding attitude. Then we might get axial rolls, for mode 1 fliers anyway, it would be hard to do this in mode 2.
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Last edited by choochoo22; Jan 06, 2013 at 09:41 PM.
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
That would be nice but, not really.
That's two points you've mis-understood and taken out of context.
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by otrcman View Post
Yes, I think so. At least within the limits of the control surfaces. The electronic control system will always be limited by the aerodynamic capability of the airplane itself.
Within the context of your post it seemed likely. This has got to be a bit beyond the computational capacity of the guardian. Sophisticated CAS sure would make make you look like an ace pilot. A perfect rolling harrier comes to mind.
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