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Old Nov 04, 2012, 12:40 PM
Michael
United States, ME, Wells
Joined May 2008
1,186 Posts
3D over 2D

I wholeheartedly concur. In a previous post I mentioned that I programmed a couple of mixes to force 2D regardless of actual Guardian Mode position; using an easily reachable momentary switch to activate the mixes.

Consequently, unless the wind is over 15mph, especially a cross-wind, and strong gusts, I remain in 3D mode and, when my overenthusiastic flying goes awry, I momentarily press the switch to recover; then resume 3D mode flying. I keep dialing the overall gain down as I become more comfortable with the ship and the winds. My original intention was to press the momentary 2D mode button, then switching to 2D mode as my breathing returned to normal. I have not found it necessary; 2D recovery, then resuming 3D works great.

In a previous post, I indicated that I have used 3D mode for the maiden flights on a couple of new ships when experienced pilots weren't available to trim 'er out. Very easy to switch Guardian off, trim the bird out, etc., knowing that 2D or 3D is available to save the bird.

One of the club instructor pilots had me configure a Guardian in a students trainer. He took it up and shortly gave it to the student who flew with more confidence. The Guardian sells itself.

Michael

Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
I believe that if you will fly in 3D mode and only use 2D as an emergency recovery mode you will enjoy the rseults a lot more.

2D does not feel natital because it is an auto pilot and when auto pilot is turned on it resist input from the pilot. You can tweak the size of the box and the level of contriol the Guardian has but much simplier to just use 3D and enjoy.


Charles
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Old Nov 04, 2012, 12:56 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
2,195 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galand View Post
So net/net, setting dual rates will affect the surface travel, independently wether the input comes from the sticks or from the Guardian. Right?
Yes. Lowering the rate or using expo has approximately the same effect.
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Old Nov 04, 2012, 04:02 PM
Registered User
Joined Jul 2009
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Originally Posted by LLFly View Post
I intend to start very basic and defensive. As I have a slider for the flaps I can neutralize them and use that channel for gain control during trimming the gain-pots. I also have a 3-position switch so I can utilize all modes. Im curious how you have mounted the guardian in your T28. Mine is quiete crowded inside just where the CG is. If you have any pictures, that would be nice to see.

/Lennart
Sorry for the delay in getting you the picture of my Guardian install in a PZ T-28, but here it is.

Jed
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Old Nov 04, 2012, 08:17 PM
Static Model Collector LOL
Katy, TX
Joined Dec 2009
1,448 Posts
Short video from today, flew mainly in 2D mode, both launches were in 3D mode

At 21 sec mark I was in 3D mode, almost lost it, flicked to 2D, centered sticks

11 04 12 Light FunJet Ultra with Num 16 Cam (1 min 32 sec)


FCA
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Old Nov 05, 2012, 05:41 AM
Sopwith Camel's Cousin
Between my tx and crashed aircraft
Joined Mar 2006
3,803 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidN View Post
"I guess that barbecue warning is still stuck in my throat. Sorry!" Galand,My first thought when reading this is that it stems from the famous MacDonald's case. As I recall an award was made to an individual who drove away with a cup wedged between her thighs & spilt coffee there sustaining burns. The case was lost because there was no warning label that the coffee was hot. My understanding is that there was no appeal, so we are stuck with the precedent. It seems crazy to me that it could have been decided that an adult would NOT know that; but there you are.
My memory of that McDonald's case was that the case was lost in part because the coffee water was made hotter than it needed to be for coffee and that McDonald's was warned that this would increase the severity of burns from any accidental spilling.
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Old Nov 05, 2012, 05:54 AM
Sopwith Camel's Cousin
Between my tx and crashed aircraft
Joined Mar 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
Interesting, thanks.

As I read that AMA document it appears it would be against AMA code, and therefore nullify your insurance, to have a Guardian set up with a 2 pos switch 2D/3D unless there is an option elsewhere for off. Also a violation to fly without a mode switch unless gain can be set to zero. And a violation to fly a plane with a Guardian that you can't fly without it.

I think we have been recommending these things anyway but it's different to have it in code.
That AMA document talks about "aircraft", as opposed to "airplanes", which sounds like it should also apply to helicopters and multi-rotor copters.
A problem is that turning off the tail gyro on most model helicopters (or 3 axis gyro on most flybarless helicopters or multi-rotor copters) that I know of, would render them uncontrollable, so that is often not given as an option.

Then again, the gyro units that I have or plan to deal with can always be manually "overridden" by moving the appropriate (A,E, or R) Tx control stick in the desired direction, so this may count as a form of deactivation?
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Old Nov 05, 2012, 07:13 AM
lud
Making mischief in the air
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Berkshire UK
Joined Jan 2008
902 Posts
Dumb question I'm sure re centering sticks - do you have to center throttle as well or only the control surfaces ?
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Old Nov 05, 2012, 07:13 AM
LiPo-Sucker & Airframe EMT
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Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
Joined Aug 2010
3,934 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by flying-llama View Post
My memory of that McDonald's case was that the case was lost in part because the coffee water was made hotter than it needed to be for coffee and that McDonald's was warned that this would increase the severity of burns from any accidental spilling.
Well.

That notorious case seems like a Rorschach test of people’s views in the debate about frivolous litigation / tort reform. Each of the opposing points of view sees the case through its own prism.

Wikipedia has a brief article, which seems to be reasonably balanced:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck...;s_Restaurants

(Sorry for the OT; we now return this thread to its regular technical content.)

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Old Nov 05, 2012, 09:02 AM
Your customer
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Berkley, MI
Joined Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flying-llama View Post
That AMA document talks about "aircraft", as opposed to "airplanes", which sounds like it should also apply to helicopters and multi-rotor copters.
A problem is that turning off the tail gyro on most model helicopters (or 3 axis gyro on most flybarless helicopters or multi-rotor copters) that I know of, would render them uncontrollable, so that is often not given as an option.

Then again, the gyro units that I have or plan to deal with can always be manually "overridden" by moving the appropriate (A,E, or R) Tx control stick in the desired direction, so this may count as a form of deactivation?
I read it as applying to airplanes only. They need to create three sub-sections for each aircraft since each one has completely different flight dynamics.

You can still maintain control of a helicopter without a gyro or flybarless controller (even with no mechanical flybar) but it takes a whole lotta focus, and a big wallet. For the main rotor, an increase in mass means an increase in stability. So you'll find "Nobar" helis in larger 3D and multiblade scale models, but I know of 1 or two pilots who've attempted this in 200 size helis. Removing the flybar makes the heli's cyclic pitch very sensitive with a strange lag. I don't recommend it - danger factor increases also.

http://www.helifreak.com/group.php?groupid=260
http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/t662412p1/

EXI 450 - Flybarless No Stabilization - First Test (3 min 36 sec)

Restored Vintage RC Helicopter GMP Competitor First Test Hops (1 min 59 sec)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8ov9zgikOE

The preferred setup of course is a 5 chan(roll, pitch, yaw, governer, gain) flybarless control unit these days. Although now and then, someone will want to be different and fly with no stabilization at all on a flybarless helicopter - its a reoccuring theme - why I don't know.

http://www.rchelicopterfun.com/flybarless.html

A multicopter on the other hand will be completely unflyable because with no stabilization the main unit looses the ability to vary the individual speeds of the motors in the right proportions for balancing and holding orientation (and I'm not referring to levelling).

Multicopter PI-tuning: How to recognize different settings. (7 min 52 sec)

A simple example of differing flight dynamics? For zero motor power...an airplane will glide. A heli will autorate. A multicopter will fall.
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Last edited by Silverexpress; Nov 08, 2012 at 08:35 AM.
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Old Nov 05, 2012, 09:36 AM
Southern Pride
everydayflyer's Avatar
Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
34,839 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lud View Post
Dumb question I'm sure re centering sticks - do you have to center throttle as well or only the control surfaces ?
Only the control surfaces unless the motor is causing excessive speed which is causing fluttering of control surfaces .

A bit of basic logic helps. If aircraft is in a high speed dive at full throttle and you flip a switch for 2D recovery or even just release the elevator stick the recovery may be to sudden for the airframe or the servo or the control linkages.

Charles
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Old Nov 05, 2012, 12:13 PM
Electric baptism 1975
DavidN's Avatar
Vernon, BC, Canada
Joined Dec 2000
2,921 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lud View Post
Dumb question I'm sure re centering sticks - do you have to center throttle as well or only the control surfaces ?
No throttle doesn't pass thru guardian.
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Old Nov 05, 2012, 01:40 PM
lud
Making mischief in the air
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Berkshire UK
Joined Jan 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
Only the control surfaces unless the motor is causing excessive speed which is causing fluttering of control surfaces .

A bit of basic logic helps. If aircraft is in a high speed dive at full throttle and you flip a switch for 2D recovery or even just release the elevator stick the recovery may be to sudden for the airframe or the servo or the control linkages.

Charles
You mean like this ?? checkout 5.20 into the vid

RC Plane CRASH With Guardian 2D/3D Stabilizer On Board (8 min 41 sec)
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Old Nov 05, 2012, 02:54 PM
Static Model Collector LOL
Katy, TX
Joined Dec 2009
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Looks like the culprit was the plastic horn

I am using full throws, high speed metal great servos, 4-40 rods, with Dubro heavy duty clevises

A bit over kill, but I can turn on a dime and not have to worry about something ripping off

FCA
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Old Nov 05, 2012, 05:36 PM
Sopwith Camel's Cousin
Between my tx and crashed aircraft
Joined Mar 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverexpress View Post
...
You can still maintain control of a helicopter without a gyro or flybarless controller (even with no mechanical flybar) but it takes a whole lotta focus, and a big wallet. For the main rotor, an increase in mass means an increase in stability. So you'll find "Nobar" helis in larger 3D and multiblade scale models, but I know of 1 or two pilots who've attempted this in 200 size helis.
Thanks for all the pointers!
I have heard of some of this, but not much, as I tend to fly smaller stuff: 200 to 300 size is about a large as I have gotten, and I tend to smaller sizes these days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverexpress View Post
...
A multicopter on the other hand will be completely unflyable because with no stabilization the main unit looses the ability to vary the individual speeds of the motors in the right proportions for balancing and holding orientation (and I'm not referring to levelling).
....
I think I have heard of some large, old tri-copters possibly attempting to being flown without gyros. A, E, Pitch/Throttle are controled similarly like A, E, Pitch/Throttle in a CCPM heli (of course with the difference that the Tri-copter is fixed pitch).
In a tri-copter, yaw is controlled by a servo tilting the main rotor in-line with the front/rear axis (like the bottom leg of a "Y"), and not by varying CW versus CCW main rotors.
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Old Nov 05, 2012, 10:41 PM
Your customer
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Berkley, MI
Joined Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flying-llama View Post
Thanks for all the pointers!
I have heard of some of this, but not much, as I tend to fly smaller stuff: 200 to 300 size is about a large as I have gotten, and I tend to smaller sizes these days.


I think I have heard of some large, old tri-copters possibly attempting to being flown without gyros. A, E, Pitch/Throttle are controled similarly like A, E, Pitch/Throttle in a CCPM heli (of course with the difference that the Tri-copter is fixed pitch).
In a tri-copter, yaw is controlled by a servo tilting the main rotor in-line with the front/rear axis (like the bottom leg of a "Y"), and not by varying CW versus CCW main rotors.
No problem. I love that multicopter setup video. A lot of good stuff out there.
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