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Old Nov 02, 2012, 01:07 PM
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Joined Jul 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LLFly View Post
Hi.
Ive been reading on about the Guartian 2D/3D stabilizer and it seems to be a perfect fit for my PZ T28. I have a setup with dual ailerons and flaps. Im a not so experienced pilot and the T28 is for me, a very nervous plane to fly. Here where I live on the Swedish westcoast, the calm days are counted on one hand in a year, so I think the Guardian will be a good help.
So, Im waiting for the next batch to be delivered and in the meantime Ive put together a flow-chart for the radio stick menu operation.

Cheers
/Lennart
The flow-chart is quite impressive - probably even the more so when I manage to figure it all out!

But my first install of the Guardian was in my PZ T-28 & it is a wonderful addition. But as many others in this thread have suggested, I would urge you to start out with really just the basics, get comfortable with it in both 2D & 3D modes without any master gain control (just set the pot gains to about 50%) & then go on from there. I have found no need to even program my radio for gain control as 50% on the pots is just about perfect for this plane due to its not very wide speed range. Good luck with it & thanks for the flow-chart.

Jed
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 02:28 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
2,094 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinowace View Post
I am sure this has been answered but... I will be putting the Guardian in a Cub so is the question- If I turn on the Guardian in 3D when I'm lined up for takeoff with the tail wheel on the ground, and I am using the Guardian to prevent ground looping, will the plane take off in the attitude of nose up tail down and not allow the tail to come up to normal flying (takeoff) attitude?
If this is the case should I be using 2D for takoffs and will the rudder be stablized to prevent ground looping?
I have one plane where I use the 3D technique all the time. It works wonderfully with that plane but I generally set a steeper climb angle. Yes it keeps the tail on the ground until takeoff, which is only a few feet with that plane. 2D would probably look nicer with a larger scale plane, a smoother surface, and a longer rollout (I'm usually on rough dirt I want to leave asap). You would add a little back pressure for rotation and climb out. I haven't tried the 2D takeoff but I notice rudder correction is less in 2D, which could be a problem preventing ground loops. You could also try 3D setting the angle with the tail up a bit. This will probably require you to bump the elevator up for rotation and climb out. Experiment, each plane, field, and pilot are a little different.
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
I have one plane where I use the 3D technique all the time. It works wonderfully with that plane but I generally set a steeper climb angle. Yes it keeps the tail on the ground until takeoff, which is only a few feet with that plane. 2D would probably look nicer with a larger scale plane, a smoother surface, and a longer rollout (I'm usually on rough dirt I want to leave asap). You would add a little back pressure for rotation and climb out. I haven't tried the 2D takeoff but I notice rudder correction is less in 2D, which could be a problem preventing ground loops. You could also try 3D setting the angle with the tail up a bit. This will probably require you to bump the elevator up for rotation and climb out. Experiment, each plane, field, and pilot are a little different.
choochoo22 - I'm also just installing a Guardian in another plane - a Sig Kadet LT-25. My initial thought was to use the exact procedure you describe for taking off in 3D mode. But based on your experience do you think it might work to line up, turn on 3D with the tail down attitude, start the take off & when the tail might want to lift up, just bump the elevator stick forward enough to allow it to lift & then at flying speed, bump it back to a climb out attitude? Since the Sig is such a gentle lady I'm not so worried about overcontrolling it but I wouldn't try this on some other planes.

Jed
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 06:47 PM
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Berkley, MI
Joined Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galand View Post
AMA document.
Especially point 5.e) is pure BS
In the style of my barbecue assembly manual saying "Do Not Touch Hot Coal".
It's not BS. It's to make us aware of this stuff....

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1296848

http://www.futaba-rc.com/techsupport/counterfeit.html

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10...m.htm#10737016

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1415892

http://helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=202803

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=214

Some people like risk, and actually will touch hot coal.

Mythbusters - Adam tries fire walking (1 min 55 sec)


In regards to incompatible devices, this was well experienced in the flybarless heli world. As an example,

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread....t=initializing

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=226831

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=253386

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=214

and there are many more...

I'm thinking the statement in 560 is likely just a fore warning at this time since the application of 3-axis stabilizing units is still somewhat new to fixed winged aircraft.
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 06:51 PM
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Berkley, MI
Joined Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choochoo22 View Post
Interesting, thanks.

As I read that AMA document it appears it would be against AMA code, and therefore nullify your insurance, to have a Guardian set up with a 2 pos switch 2D/3D unless there is an option elsewhere for off. Also a violation to fly without a mode switch unless gain can be set to zero. And a violation to fly a plane with a Guardian that you can't fly without it.

I think we have been recommending these things anyway but it's different to have it in code.
So many ways of looking at things, that I actually find this 560 a good thing. Manufacturers will now offer the ability to turn off stabilization units as a standard.
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 07:30 PM
GOTTA FLY STRIGHT UP
WILLIAM M's Avatar
United States, FL, Lake City
Joined Jun 2012
358 Posts
Has any one had this problem?

Installed Guardian 2D3D unit in plane checked and rechecked connections.
1: on power up if mod switch is down in 2d or 3d?[ don't know which] ail moves to full on. move mode sw to middle ail returns to center. move mode sw to up ail deploy to full other direction.
2: upon power up within 15 sec. mod sw will not reset any thing no mater how many times it is moved.

Transmitter is a fataba 10c rx is a Hobby King 8 ch

3: no movement of the plane will move any control surface.

4: tx will move any serface in any mode sw setting.

I have read and reread the manual and can not find help in it.
I would appreciate any help on this.

thanks

Bill
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 09:13 PM
Name brands compare me...Why?
BRAND X's Avatar
United States, NJ
Joined Feb 2012
369 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by LLFly View Post
Hi.
Ive been reading on about the Guartian 2D/3D stabilizer and it seems to be a perfect fit for my PZ T28. I have a setup with dual ailerons and flaps. Im a not so experienced pilot and the T28 is for me, a very nervous plane to fly. Here where I live on the Swedish westcoast, the calm days are counted on one hand in a year, so I think the Guardian will be a good help.
So, Im waiting for the next batch to be delivered and in the meantime Ive put together a flow-chart for the radio stick menu operation.

Cheers
/Lennart
That is great! Copy goes in my field bag for emergencies.
Thanks
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 09:24 PM
Static Model Collector LOL
Katy, TX
Joined Dec 2009
1,448 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverexpress View Post
So many ways of looking at things, that I actually find this 560 a good thing. Manufacturers will now offer the ability to turn off stabilization units as a standard.
I don't follow you on this one, ET, Fy tec, and Co-Pilot can all be turned off

Obviously you need a receiver with enough channels to allow those functions to be available

FCA
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 10:55 PM
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Berkley, MI
Joined Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLAME747 View Post
I don't follow you on this one, ET, Fy tec, and Co-Pilot can all be turned off

Obviously you need a receiver with enough channels to allow those functions to be available

FCA
It was never clearly defined why this option was needed. Therefore, up until now there would have a been a good chance of a manufacturer producing a unit at a very low cost with questionable performance, and no way to turn it off in mid flight. Now I speculate that moving forward all new systems announced shall have it. Currently, I can name a half a dozen stabilized um airplanes that do not have this feature.

As I see it the Guardian seems to be setting the standard for now. I hope they find a way to continually present it in a simple manner as they add more and more features (as mentioned earlier in this thread). A qoute from a company worth over 100 Billion dollars, “That’s been one of my mantras — focus and simplicity. Simple can be harder than complex: You have to work hard to get your thinking clean to make it simple. But it’s worth it in the end because once you get there, you can move mountains.”
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 03:40 AM
Chester UK
dodlestonian's Avatar
Joined Mar 2006
159 Posts
It sounds like you've got a mix set up in your tx that's affecting everything.

Set up a clean model. Bind your model to that.
Make very sure again that your servos are plugged into the right sockets in tour rx.

Make sure one of the servo plugs isn't upside down

AJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by WILLIAM M View Post
Has any one had this problem?

Installed Guardian 2D3D unit in plane checked and rechecked connections.
1: on power up if mod switch is down in 2d or 3d?[ don't know which] ail moves to full on. move mode sw to middle ail returns to center. move mode sw to up ail deploy to full other direction.
2: upon power up within 15 sec. mod sw will not reset any thing no mater how many times it is moved.

Transmitter is a fataba 10c rx is a Hobby King 8 ch

3: no movement of the plane will move any control surface.

4: tx will move any serface in any mode sw setting.

I have read and reread the manual and can not find help in it.
I would appreciate any help on this.

thanks

Bill
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 04:18 AM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
2,094 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedorme View Post
choochoo22 - I'm also just installing a Guardian in another plane - a Sig Kadet LT-25. My initial thought was to use the exact procedure you describe for taking off in 3D mode. But based on your experience do you think it might work to line up, turn on 3D with the tail down attitude, start the take off & when the tail might want to lift up, just bump the elevator stick forward enough to allow it to lift & then at flying speed, bump it back to a climb out attitude? Since the Sig is such a gentle lady I'm not so worried about overcontrolling it but I wouldn't try this on some other planes.

Jed
I think it could be done. I think you would eat a few props trying to get the timing right.

Try it first the way I described it. Line it up with the runway, hold it at the climb attitude you want, set 3D mode, wiggle it to confirm 3D engagement, put it down, hit the throttle and watch it take off and climb on it's own. The tail will likely be dragging but it will work fine.

To make a prettier takeoff (remember my "experience" does not include having done this). As above but set 3D with wheels on the ground and the tail up to level, blip the elevator up when you are ready to climb. It may take a few tries to perfect the "blip" but it should be harmless, at worst you just fly it out. This approach should allow the tail to rise as soon as it can and hold the tail up nicely until you pull the elevator.

Also, I wouldn't try any of this on the first flight with the Guardian. On the maiden you should leave the Guardian off until you get a couple of mistakes high and get the feel of it there. This protects you from a mistake made and not caught in setup. And keep your finger on the off switch until you are confident things are working to your satisfaction.
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 05:51 AM
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LLFly's Avatar
Halmstad, Sweden
Joined Feb 2007
64 Posts
Thank you all for your kind words.

I appreciate any feedback for correction. I found a typing error myself, so there might be a rev 1.1
I did this chart for myself to better understand the possibilities and glad others can have use for it also. Im going to have it as an emergency tool in my field bag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAND X View Post
That is great! Copy goes in my field bag for emergencies.
Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj604 View Post
Nice work! Thanks.

That's a very useful chart to have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by al_voisine View Post
That's great, thank you!

AL
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDougherty, Erie View Post
Very well done! ET should review for accuracy, and then send you some sort of reward. This will be useful to all of us.
Jim
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedorme View Post
The flow-chart is quite impressive - probably even the more so when I manage to figure it all out!

But my first install of the Guardian was in my PZ T-28 & it is a wonderful addition. But as many others in this thread have suggested, I would urge you to start out with really just the basics, get comfortable with it in both 2D & 3D modes without any master gain control (just set the pot gains to about 50%) & then go on from there. I have found no need to even program my radio for gain control as 50% on the pots is just about perfect for this plane due to its not very wide speed range. Good luck with it & thanks for the flow-chart.

Jed
I intend to start very basic and defensive. As I have a slider for the flaps I can neutralize them and use that channel for gain control during trimming the gain-pots. I also have a 3-position switch so I can utilize all modes. Im curious how you have mounted the guardian in your T28. Mine is quiete crowded inside just where the CG is. If you have any pictures, that would be nice to see.

/Lennart
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Last edited by LLFly; Nov 03, 2012 at 07:59 AM.
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 09:11 AM
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Norway, Vestfold, Sandefjord
Joined Oct 2010
51 Posts
What about expo? Do you zero out expo in 2D and 3D mode??

Morten
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 09:53 AM
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Long Island, NY
Joined May 2010
1,601 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverexpress View Post
It's not BS. It's to make us aware of this stuff....

I'm thinking the statement in 560 is likely just a fore warning at this time since the application of 3-axis stabilizing units is still somewhat new to fixed winged aircraft.
Come on Silver!!!
1) I do not need the AMA to exhort me into buy "good" stuff from "good" people. It is even a statistical probability that a portion of the ads in their nice magazine come from not so "reputable" suppliers. RC groups is THE source to find out such things. No need for the AMA there.
2) That 5.e statement, which is idiotic in itself, has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of 560, which in itself is a very important topic.

I guess that barbecue warning is still stuck in my throat. Sorry!

BTW: I agree that the capability to switch off in flight is important.
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Last edited by Galand; Nov 03, 2012 at 10:01 AM.
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 10:54 AM
Your customer
Silverexpress's Avatar
Berkley, MI
Joined Dec 2009
1,385 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galand View Post
Come on Silver!!!
1) I do not need the AMA to exhort me into buy "good" stuff from "good" people. It is even a statistical probability that a portion of the ads in their nice magazine come from not so "reputable" suppliers. RC groups is THE source to find out such things. No need for the AMA there.
2) That 5.e statement, which is idiotic in itself, has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of 560, which in itself is a very important topic.

I guess that barbecue warning is still stuck in my throat. Sorry!

BTW: I agree that the capability to switch off in flight is important.
Ah yes. I see your points, but remember...the AMA is in the business of insuring people. Avoiding liability is at the core of their guidelines. I'll end it here.
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