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Old Oct 14, 2012, 06:23 PM
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Canton, Michigan USA
Joined Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by jimschroed View Post
I went back tried the Prof's setup using the flap switch in conjunction with the retract switch and then mixing the two. Works well. I can turn it on or off from either 2D or 3D but not both. It depends on how I map the switch mix. Thanks for speedy feedback.

Jim
Cool, you now have 2D-3D on one switch and off and on another. Excellent. Thank goodness you know how to mix things on your Futaba. One club member didn't know how and rather than learn he bought a DX8.

If you another spare switch plug in the gain switch and set it at 100% and 50% so you can cut your pot gains from 100% to 50%. It's no slider but it gives you a remote gain adjustment at fixed values.
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Old Oct 14, 2012, 06:24 PM
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United States, WA, Port Angeles
Joined Oct 2012
20 Posts
Good idea on using the gain line

Thx for the idea on returning gain to zero which I presume the Guardian does internally when it sees a null servo pulse width. That would also allow me to trim the overall gain from the tx as a method tweaking.

The T28 is a good platform for gaining some experience with stabilization. I fly on a grass field close to the Strait of Juan de Fuca we have moderate winds from mid morning on which pushes the smaller planes around. Our strip is a cross wind land so the Guardian helps keep things under control.

On my first flight I landed with a "brown out" error. I am switching out the ESC for one with a higher capacity switched BEC. The standard unit is marginal.

Jim
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Old Oct 14, 2012, 10:24 PM
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Joined Sep 2011
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Ground loop fix?

what is the best set up for my guardian to inhibit the ground looping tendance of my tail dragger Black Horse Orbit?
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Old Oct 14, 2012, 10:25 PM
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Joined Oct 2012
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Now For Something Completely Different

Hi,

I'm interested in 'flying' a hand held video camera stabilization rig of my own design but which works something like the Steadicam Merlin. These rigs work by balancing the camera support platform on a gimbal. The whole thing is essentially a pendulum with a slightly larger mass below the gimbal to keep it 'balanced'. It is difficult to keep the support from swaying when accelerated and to aim or pan the camera where desired.

My goal is to attach a 3D control system such as the Guardian to such a stabilized platform. The outputs would simply move masses on the horizontal x and y axes to keep the platform level as it is accelerated in various directions. I'd also like something like the hold heading feature used on airplanes to keep the stabilizer pointed in a fixed direction.

Since the members here are all experts at RC motion control, my question is could the Guardian system be used for my application even though it isn't a motorized vehicle or airplane?
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Old Oct 14, 2012, 10:49 PM
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Oklahoma, USA
Joined Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof100 View Post
Cool, you now have 2D-3D on one switch and off and on another. Excellent. Thank goodness you know how to mix things on your Futaba. One club member didn't know how and rather than learn he bought a DX8.

If you another spare switch plug in the gain switch and set it at 100% and 50% so you can cut your pot gains from 100% to 50%. It's no slider but it gives you a remote gain adjustment at fixed values.
You might want to start with 10-30%. 50% can really oscillate at speed on some planes.

Steve
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Old Oct 14, 2012, 11:33 PM
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Great White North
Joined Jun 2008
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Originally Posted by tiede3d View Post
Hi,

I'm interested in 'flying' a hand held video camera stabilization rig of my own design but which works something like the Steadicam Merlin. These rigs work by balancing the camera support platform on a gimbal. The whole thing is essentially a pendulum with a slightly larger mass below the gimbal to keep it 'balanced'. It is difficult to keep the support from swaying when accelerated and to aim or pan the camera where desired.

My goal is to attach a 3D control system such as the Guardian to such a stabilized platform. The outputs would simply move masses on the horizontal x and y axes to keep the platform level as it is accelerated in various directions. I'd also like something like the hold heading feature used on airplanes to keep the stabilizer pointed in a fixed direction.

Since the members here are all experts at RC motion control, my question is could the Guardian system be used for my application even though it isn't a motorized vehicle or airplane?
If you are using servos to Control your gimbal then yes, i have been fooling around with the guardian as a gimbal controller for a multirotor gimbal. I believe Eagle tree will also have official support for that soon as well

Al
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 05:09 AM
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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Yes indeed

Snip from first post

Quote:
In addition to stabilizing fixed wing aircraft, firmware updates for stabilization camera mounts is also planned!
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 08:48 AM
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No. The servos would not control the gimbal. The gimbal is a a rather small and extremely low friction universal joint which is normally used to couple a driveshaft to a wheel. The 'driveshaft' part of the gimbal serves as the handle to support the whole structure. The other side of the universal joint is attached to the camera platform immediately under and as close as possible to the center of mass of the camera and support plate. This is inherently unstable so another mass is attached to the support plate such that it hangs below the pivot point. The whole structure is essentially a seesaw which is slightly unbalanced so that the line between the upper and lower masses is vertical. The camera support is very close to an inertial plane that stays level regardless of how the pivot point is moved. But, since it is essentially a pendulum, small oscillations of the pendulum can be generated when the pivot is accelerated. These eventually dampen out because of friction and the platform returns to level naturally.

The balance is so sensitive that even very small changes in the position of the mass on the support plate will change the balance. On the normal Merlin type stabilizers this is used to change the tilt direction. Something as simple as opening the display on the side of a video camera would require re-balancing.

Thus, my idea is to have small masses which can be translated in the x and y directions (independently) in response to any unbalance condition detected by the 3D gyro electronics. The servos could simply drive a screw which provides the translation. Or, perhaps the servos could rotate a shaft and pulley system to push or pull the mass into the balance position.

In my design, rather than change the balance of the support plate to create tilt, there is a yoke to support the camera(s) whose rotation axis passes through the center of mass of the whole yoke assembly. Thus only a small amount of torque would be needed to perform the tilt without changing upper center of mass or affect the overall balance of the platform. This axis could be rotated by a servo as well, either directly as a gimbal or more likely through rotary drive of a larger diameter wheel attached to the yoke for finer control.

Thus, to return to my initial question, could the Guardian system be used to control these sliding masses to control the balance?
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 10:56 AM
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Joined Sep 2007
643 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiede3d View Post
No. The servos would not control the gimbal. The gimbal is a a rather small and extremely low friction universal joint which is normally used to couple a driveshaft to a wheel. The 'driveshaft' part of the gimbal serves as the handle to support the whole structure. The other side of the universal joint is attached to the camera platform immediately under and as close as possible to the center of mass of the camera and support plate. This is inherently unstable so another mass is attached to the support plate such that it hangs below the pivot point. The whole structure is essentially a seesaw which is slightly unbalanced so that the line between the upper and lower masses is vertical. The camera support is very close to an inertial plane that stays level regardless of how the pivot point is moved. But, since it is essentially a pendulum, small oscillations of the pendulum can be generated when the pivot is accelerated. These eventually dampen out because of friction and the platform returns to level naturally.

The balance is so sensitive that even very small changes in the position of the mass on the support plate will change the balance. On the normal Merlin type stabilizers this is used to change the tilt direction. Something as simple as opening the display on the side of a video camera would require re-balancing.

Thus, my idea is to have small masses which can be translated in the x and y directions (independently) in response to any unbalance condition detected by the 3D gyro electronics. The servos could simply drive a screw which provides the translation. Or, perhaps the servos could rotate a shaft and pulley system to push or pull the mass into the balance position.

In my design, rather than change the balance of the support plate to create tilt, there is a yoke to support the camera(s) whose rotation axis passes through the center of mass of the whole yoke assembly. Thus only a small amount of torque would be needed to perform the tilt without changing upper center of mass or affect the overall balance of the platform. This axis could be rotated by a servo as well, either directly as a gimbal or more likely through rotary drive of a larger diameter wheel attached to the yoke for finer control.

Thus, to return to my initial question, could the Guardian system be used to control these sliding masses to control the balance?
Just to be clear, you are not trying to fly this around, you just want the Guardian to compensate for movement you want. Although the torques you need could be made to be small, the challenge is with RC servos. They will need to be large RC servos and they typically are designed to rapidly move small inertial loads (like a wing surface), not slowly move large inertial loads. They might overheat but using a big enough servo will deal with that. Overall the power level would probably exceed what the Guardian can channel so you would have to follow their instructions for feeding power directly to the servos. Once you add in the battery, have you figured out if you actually save any mass?
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 11:44 AM
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USA, AL, Huntsville
Joined Apr 2007
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Has anyone programmed, i.e., set up a Guardian on a conventional plane using a Futaba 9CAP?
I need some help, Please!
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 12:40 PM
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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Futuba 6ex user posted here

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=2081
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 01:26 PM
Rick
United States, CA, Santa Clara
Joined Mar 2011
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Originally Posted by rebranger View Post
Has anyone programmed, i.e., set up a Guardian on a conventional plane using a Futaba 9CAP?
I need some help, Please!
Have you tried following the instructions? If not, please try. If so, could you be more specific about what problems you encountered and what you need help with?
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 04:21 PM
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Joined Sep 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebranger View Post
Has anyone programmed, i.e., set up a Guardian on a conventional plane using a Futaba 9CAP?
I need some help, Please!
I have a Futaba 8FG radio but the radio setup is really not the hard part. Assign the mode channel to a 3 position switch, assign the gain channel to a slider or knob and you are done. The more challenging part is setting servo limits and gains on the different axes.
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 09:35 PM
GOTTA FLY STRIGHT UP
WILLIAM M's Avatar
United States, FL, Lake City
Joined Jun 2012
358 Posts
Hi guys

I have decided to buy 2, 2d3d, however the places that I checked have them on back order. so I am waiting.

I was going to install it in this plane see pic.

however I get the tooth pick award, the crash happened sat 10/13

maybe they will have them when I get it rebuilt. I built it from my own design so I guess I can fix it.

If anybody knows of any in stock please let me know.

thanks

Bill
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 10:48 PM
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Joined Oct 2012
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Yes, this stabilized platform is carried by hand and not flown.

I haven't computed the value of the inertial mass that might be needed. But the servo doesn't need to move the center of mass of the whole upper mass, only a small balancing mass relatively far from the center gimbal support. It is the torque which is mass times lever arm which is important. In this case the lever arm is large (maybe 6 or more inches) and the balancing torque needed should be small because the whole assembly is almost perfectly balanced to begin with. I imagine something with the mass of penny moved an inch or two might be the order of magnitude needed. The movement of the mass can be nearly frictionless so the servo motor wouldn't need to do much work . Both the mass (and thus the force) and the translation distance are small. As to servo torque, if the RPM of the servo motor is high enough, the translations can be smoothly accomplished even with low torque using the mechanical advantage of a screw with a large number of threads per inch.

I don't really need to worry much about how much mass is needed for batteries, controller, or servos because whatever is needed can be distributed or compensated with other additional mass to keep the platform center of mass over the gimbal. Since it is hand carried, a person can easily support the mass even with two small HD video cameras and all the hardware. The design allows a support rod attached to the gimbal to be further supported by a pocket attached to a belt.
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