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Old Mar 18, 2012, 04:04 PM
Sopwith Camel's Cousin
Between my tx and crashed aircraft
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otrcman View Post
...
For someone who has flown the Guardian already, I have a couple of questions:

1. When flying in 2D Flight Mode:

A . Do you have to hold an aileron input in order to maintain a turn ? In other words, if the airplane straightens out as soon as you center the stick, how do you maintain a turn ?

...
Guardian or otherwise, a not so fast moving airplane can turn with the wings level (not-banked) by using the rudder (a so called "flat turn").
I tend to fly at slow speeds and in fact tend to turn by using my rudder and purposely giving opposite aileron to prevent the plane from banking ("cross-aileron": used to make sure my slow moving plane has enough lift not to fall out of the sky).
At faster speeds, a flat turn does not work so well (get "skidding" sideways), and the instructions for at least one flight controller have mentioned that using the gyros to keep the wings level will result in a larger turn radius.

Side-note: I have found that helicopters seem to need more aileron in a turn (to keep from skidding) than airplanes.
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Old Mar 18, 2012, 04:32 PM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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A Yes Striaght and level means just that. If you turn and release the stick it has a new heading.

B Depends on the plane ,Guardian rate settings and Transmitter rate settings. Mine with Trans on low rates will not roll but will on high rates.

C Same as B however mine at top of loop does a roll / flip back to level flight.

In 3D mode it flys same as being off (non / no effect. except it corrects for wind much faster than a human can. Roll KE and center sticks and it stays in KE, level inverted and center sticks and it continues level inverted. Start a 45 gegree climb center sticks and it continues the 45 degree climb. 3D maintains last heading before sticks were centered. A loop or a roll is not a constant heading manuver IMO.

Perhaps this will help. In 3D it tried to maintain the planes last orientation right before the sticks were centered.
It does not remember the transmitter's sticks positions.If you are flying a circle the the heading (orintation) of the plane is constantly changing. Hold a compass in front of you and slowly walk in a circle. The compus keeps changing it reading, walk a striaght line and the compas maintains the same reading (heading)..



Charles
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Old Mar 18, 2012, 06:17 PM
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Excellent explanations Charles

Another analogy for 2D mode - fly by wire compared to non stabilized airplane flight is this:

When flying a non stabilized airplane, even mild deflection of aileron will result in a roll, with the speed of the roll dependent on how far over you push the stick (ie how much aileron deflection.

So to accomplish a turn, you need to initiate aileron, to achieve your desired bank angle, then return aileron towards neutral, then add a bit of up elevator. Depending on the plane, you may need to add and or subtract some aileron to keep the bank angle constant

Think of stabilized 2D mode (fly by wire) like driving a car. To turn continuously, you need to keep the wheel held in a turn. And at a constant car speed, the turn rate is determined by the angle you turned the wheel.

The guardian does something like that (this is also true for self leveling multirotors etc) - basically it translates your aileron stick deflection angle to a bank angle - so to keep the bank angle you need to keep the aileron stick deflected at that position.

But as Charles points out if you have high rates and move the stick all the way over, the plane may roll then relevel itself. The guardian add on handled this a bit differently in that it only allowed a certain maximum bank angle.

Generally, if you want to roll and loop switch to 3d mode.

Al
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Old Mar 18, 2012, 06:45 PM
Team30 Micro EDF
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Adelaide, Australia
Joined Apr 2004
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Thanks for the heads up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epoweredrc View Post
Good luck on getting that answered i seen you ask it few times. I have no clue maybe the owner of the product will come and post and let everyone know.
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Old Mar 18, 2012, 11:36 PM
FPV junkie
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He is presently waiting for production.

That is the only hold-up.
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Old Mar 19, 2012, 02:52 AM
Team30 Micro EDF
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Excellent. Thanks m_beeson.
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Old Mar 19, 2012, 03:39 AM
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Okay, I give up. I need help from one of you guys who are up to speed with this system.

Here is my exchange with the factory. Can anyone translate? How can you do tandem but opposite?
Martian to me.

I have a scratch design 2 meter fpv aircraft with dual differential ailerons, v-tail configuration. I need to use the guardian stabilizer to augment my 70-year old reflexes.
I've read the manual, I've read the forum, posted there, no answers.
1) With only one aileron output on the guardian, --how to connect two servos? In differential?
2) How to connect my v-tail servos?
Thu, Mar 8 2012 4:02am
I should have mentioned that I'm setting up a new OSD PRO, and wish to use thge guardian with it, as above.
Sun, Mar 11 2012 8:33am
Can I use a stand-alone v-tail mixer? If so, where would I put it?
If this will work, that still leaves the problem of the two aileron servos.
Is the newer 2D/3D unit a more capable unit?ie newer design?
Fri, Mar 16 2012 3:42pm - staff
Mr. Miller,

Sorry for the delay, provided that the ailerons move in tandem (but opposite one another) you should be able to use a servo reverser on one of your servos and a Y-cable for the OSD Pro to allow for attachment and movement of both servos.

Our newer 2D/3D unit is still being designed but it should support the stabilization of v-tail aircraft. We expect that we'll be shipping it within a couple of months or so.
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Old Mar 19, 2012, 03:50 AM
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Okay, I finally get the y-cable thing. But what about that external v-tail mixer? Rudder servo out from receiver straight to mixer, aileron servo out to guardian, and then to mixer?
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Old Mar 19, 2012, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wazoo22 View Post
Okay, I finally get the y-cable thing. But what about that external v-tail mixer? Rudder servo out from receiver straight to mixer, aileron servo out to guardian, and then to mixer?
The new guardian standalone which is the topic of this thread, will be able to do the stabilization you require.

I know the most recent firmware supports vtail. I have a dual aileron and vtail plane to test it on but have not had a chance to fly it yet

The older guardian add on which only works with the osd pro has a limitation of requiring the servo connections to go into the osd pro which as you know only has a channel for throttle, elevator, and either rudder or aileron but not both.

The new guardian when released will have you covered

Al
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Old Mar 19, 2012, 02:01 PM
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Thanks very much, Al.
My original topic was the issue of choosing between the guardian and the new 2d/3d standalone, and some of the pros and cons- an issue that is likely on the minds of about 90 percent of the owners of a guardian. My post above follows along that line of thought.

The standalone does not provide an AH, which is important to me- I'm used to it-
and the guardian still will not do differential ailerons, which is one very good reason for having two aileron servos, and using two channels.
Like others, I'm trying to put together a full-featured stabilization system- an autopilot, really- and remain loyal to the Eagle Tree product line, which seems a good one.,
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Old Mar 21, 2012, 07:14 PM
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Joined Nov 2003
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All, thanks so much for the continued interest in the Guardian. We can't wait to get it shipped!

I've been on vacation the last several days, but am catching up again now. Let me know if the below doesn't answer all the questions:

Re ship date, we are sticking to "Late Spring". The first production run of a new item can have unexpected delays, and I don't want to post a date and have us miss it. That said, things are going very well with production, and I hope to post a more exact, and pleasing, date soon. But I don't want to jinx it.

Re using the Guardian vs a gyro-only device, here are my (obviously biased) thoughts:
a) The way I have my Guardian set up, I launch in 2D mode, and then flip the switch to put the Guardian in 3D mode,or "no-D mode," for acrobatic maneuvers. Then, when needed or for landing, I flip the switch back to 2D mode, and "thwump," the plane immediately returns to level flight. I did a thwump about 10 feet off the ground the other day due to a poorly executed maneuver, which saved the day.
b) I have no idea about the feature set or performance of the gyro-only devices out there, but the Guardian has a good set of 3D features, and has built-in USB, so if we get feature requests or need to address an issue, the update is just a download away. We've added countless new software features to our existing devices, often years after we first ship the device.

Silverexpress,
Quote:
I often see comments about these gyro systems fighting you, and I think it is a misconsception.
Agreed. “Fighting the gyro” is what people experience when they have a gyro stabilizer that provides dampening effects to their airframe. On most of these systems, you will be unable to perform high rate maneuvers at high gains due to this dampening effect. In this, your gain decision becomes a compromise between stability and maneuverability. Reducing the gain during maneuvers makes sense, but could sacrifice stability during these maneuvers. With the Guardian, the gain is not lowered during maneuvers, rather the Guardian applies what we call “Direct Rate Control” to provide high rate maneuvering capability without compromising on turbulence rejection. This involves “closing the loop” on the angular rate of your plane as you perform your maneuvers.

Regarding the Guardian 2D/3D stabilizer (the subject of this thread) vs the OSD Pro + the Guardian expander, we recommend the following:

1) If you are not flying FPV, the Guardian 2D/3D stabilizer is the right choice.
2) If you are flying FPV, but don't plan on using an OSD, or have another brand of OSD (but why?? ), we recommend the Guardian 2D/3D stabilizer.
3) If you are flying FPV and need an OSD, we recommend the OSD Pro + the Guardian expander. This setup gives you world class Guardian stabilization, with on-screen setup and tight integration with all the features of the OSD Pro, AHI, RTH etc.

Our hope is that the above recommendations will meet the vast majority of our customers' needs, so using the OSD Pro with the Guardian 2D/3D will not be needed. But, Reed Hastings does not work here - our customers tell us, rather than the other way around. And I understand that some people may want to do 3D flying with their FPV rigs, rather than the more traditional FPV flying, and that some people need the additional input channel. We'll need to sort out these cases going forward.

Regarding the Guardian's data port, we have plans for some additional hardware enhancements, that will plug into that port. But, our plans for this are fluid now. All feedback is really appreciated.

Melnic,
Quote:
The big thing is to be able to turn the rudder gain down or off. The Eagle won't be able to do that. (this is what we're asking Eagle Tree to do in this thread).
The gains on all 3 axes, including the rudder, are fully adjustable.



tushev,
Quote:
What about vibration tolerance, no problems?
Vibration rejection has been priority #1 with our Guardian products, and a lot of engineering went into this hard problem. While nothing's perfect, I think we've done a great job of minimizing the effects of vibration.

bnick2k8,
Quote:
Someone wrote on another thread that this Guardian is aileron-only control in 2D mode and rudder and elevator do nothing... Is this true...?
No. The Guardian stabilizes in all 3 axes in 2D mode.
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Old Mar 21, 2012, 07:31 PM
Your customer
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Berkley, MI
Joined Dec 2009
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Billpa,

Will the unit have independent travel limit adjustments for each of the axis'? I've found this to be a beneficial feature on a higher end heli gyro I used in a micro biplane with quad ailerons. The mechanical gain of the four ailerons resulted in a very low gain in the unit when set to match the TX's throws.

More importantly on the simpler gyro's, not only do they continually add their error correction through out the servos travel range, but they will also over extend a servo's travel beyond the TX's set limits. This can cause binding, and will eventually burn out the servos. Lowering the servo travel at the TX is not the answer since this will decrease the overall servo throws - affecting both the gyro, roll rates, pitch rates, yaw rates, D/R...etc.

I've attached a screen capture of Spartan's Quark gui. Under "Servo" you'll see the travel adjustments that only affect the gyro's added motions. In head holding mode (Mode 2 - AVCS), you'll find the "Rudder Sensitivity" and it is similar in function to what I talked about in my prior post - http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=154
I'm currently using the Quark in Kyosho Airium Spitfire.

I'm really looking forward to your product. I have half a dozen airplanes I'd like to put your Guardian in. From 3D balsa/carbon planes to EDF's, and possibly a Ntiro or two.

(Addendum: I just wanted to expand on a few of the other settings on the Quark...
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Old Mar 22, 2012, 07:46 AM
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Joined Oct 2007
785 Posts
The case your guidance as to which to choose misses is the FPV pilot who wants the 3D ability, with all the tight integration of the expander.

I see though you addressed it later in the post as something to address going forward.... as you will already know, or soon know now you're back from holiday, I'm one of those people so I eagerly await your input on the content of my posts/pm on the matter.
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Old Mar 22, 2012, 12:02 PM
Southern Pride
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Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
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Guardian 2D/3D in a 3D plane

I installed the Guardian 2D/3D in my Lil-Banchee 3D and even though it was extremely cloudy,threathing rain and gusty winds I went to the field this morning and logged 6 flights.

Hands off hovers at all four 90 degree orintations in a gusty wind. perfect hands off knife edges normal or high alpha , four point rolls with very minor rudder and elevator corrections takes offs and landing with throttle and elevator input only wing rock free harries.

All of that by someone who has a difficult time hovering for more than 10 seconds in good conditions and thes were 60 seconds(timed) hand free and only aborted as it was drifinting to far away in the wind.

I have never done a wing rock free harrier before and my 4 point rolls without the Guardian perhaps would score a 3 and these were 7s easily.


Added : 3-27-12
Took so measurements. Wing Span 31" ,wing area aprox.325 sq.in (not including stab) ,all up weight with 3S 1000 mAh Lipoly 18 oz. with new motor I just installed.
Static went from 132watts to 217 and thrust from 26 oz. to 38 oz.. Now I just need to flight test this extra power which it really needed. Flew OK but crawled out of a hover and I like them to puch out.



Charles
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Old Mar 22, 2012, 07:29 PM
Gopher huntin' stick jockey
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East Bethel, MN USA
Joined Jul 2009
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EDF,

Thanks for the link! Looks like I'll be getting one of these for my 48" PA Extra 260 to improve its wind-handling capability. With a wing-loading of only 9 oz/sq ft, flying in turbulent conditions isn't fun. However, I don't want to hurt its unlimited aerobatic performance. Sounds like the Guardian 2D/3D is what I've been looking for.

Joel
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