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Old Feb 17, 2012, 02:10 AM
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Are you trying to sell me one?? My information facility is reduced to basic info so please first check because you are the seller
I don't sell anything it's experimental inside my club.

You have it, the MP3V5004 is not an ultra precise transducter. But it's good enough after calibrating, oversampling and averaging. Don't compare apple to orange. What is the price factor bethween a real glider certified airspeed instrument and the 10$ chain discussed here ?
What I'll do, is to build an approximation of the LD and polar curve, not a certified one.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe W View Post
Cees,

The sensor information was limited to a variometer with a TE probe. All other information is inferred. The airspeed was defined via a high static margin and somewhat calibrated trim, with additional information from the ground speed with some assumptions about the wind speed/direction. The atmospheric data (lift/sink) is inferred via the TE variometer signal and the airspeed.

As to my plane in the '80s... I built Wylie for XC flying in the late '80s, and it hasn't been beaten at an XC event yet. Of course, it hasn't been campaigned in about a half dozen years, and needs some work to return to flight status. It is a bit outdated (eppler 374 airfoil, no wing camber adjustment), but is likely to still do okay. XC is still very much a pilots event rather than an equipment event.

I do worry about the escalation of electronic technology for XC flying. I'd prefer it was the pilot that did the data integration rather than a computer. If a computer gets into the flight execution, the eventual result is likely to be that XC competitions will be won or lost via the skills of the autopilot programmer rather than pilot skills. I turned down the offer to use a sensor suite in XC a long time ago, as I felt that using it would not be beneficial to the health of XC flying.
Joe, first a photograph,
Eppler 193, 10 feet/3m span glider and most successful in thermal contests.
Same methode used by you, trim (touchable, no bleeb bleeb!!) to adjust the airspeed.
Own design and built variometer with ventury for TE compensation. (visible on the nose)
Unbeaten in an open contest with about 40 competitors, Octobre 1983. best moment!

With the right sensitive TE variometer it is possible to employ lift generated by wind and trees to have a "strike". This glider has no ailerons, no washout and no tapered wings (RE important).
Local circumstances are important in the Netherlands, wind we mostly have!!

This was the period people did laugh about the ventury on the nose, before the contest!!! So the instrument was allowed to use, small little boy toy.
Joe you write:

I do worry about the escalation of electronic technology for XC flying. I'd prefer it was the pilot that did the data integration rather than a computer. If a computer gets into the flight execution, the eventual result is likely to be that XC competitions will be won or lost via the skills of the autopilot programmer rather than pilot skills. I turned down the offer to use a sensor suite in XC a long time ago, as I felt that using it would not be beneficial to the health of XC flying.

You are right in opinion about the auto pilot programmer and all kind of facilities. Pilot skills have to be the key factor for the results.

This is part of the reason why I am interested in the variometer development.
None of the variometers models I talk about do need a programmer or a nice lady in the software!!

Not clear to me what a sensor suit does content, thinking about my own "head up display", is it "secret"? Don't tell!

No debat is needed but nice to here other man opinions, thanks Joe.

Still collecting information about variometers but all used systems to measure airspeed are also interesting to know.
All principles are known (and more than I read about in the forums!), only it is interesting to here what is really used.
It is also not needed to show technical secrets, it also isn't my goal of this thread!!

Cees
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 11:58 AM
yyz
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Originally Posted by Joe W View Post
I do worry about the escalation of electronic technology for XC flying. I'd prefer it was the pilot that did the data integration rather than a computer. If a computer gets into the flight execution, the eventual result is likely to be that XC competitions will be won or lost via the skills of the autopilot programmer rather than pilot skills. I turned down the offer to use a sensor suite in XC a long time ago, as I felt that using it would not be beneficial to the health of XC flying.
This -- from the gentleman who has held the world straight-out record for several decades -- is a healthy approach and IMO should be THE rule for r/c cross-country soaring going forward.

The test should be about the pilot and NOT the plane or electronics. All technology-driven sports that have survived and thrived get this very simple tenet.

Off the soaring technology ludite soap box,

Mike
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 01:54 PM
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Hello All

This is a terrific thread. No barbs just good discussion. I started playing with "electronics & electricity" at an age I would like to go back to. I have seen the birth of ICs. The advancements have been amazing.

I am currently getting to understand a vario and the Triangle racing. Such advances ASSIST the pilot.

Model contest must stay as a pilot event.

BUT how do you conceive rules that distinguish between the electronics in the model controlling the servos or giros and sending that information to the pilot advising the pilot to move the stick X amount or add 5 pulses of speed flap change.

Look at F! race cars: traction control is/was banned but the RPM rate of change must be controlled or the engines will explode.

May be simply have positive rules that state: only altitude, speed and gps.

I am still learning. I am starting to retire my KRAFT gear and have had a computer radio for only 12 months.

Even ludits can change. Looking forward to reading more informed discussion.

Thanks to all for the inputs.

Cheers jq
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 03:17 PM
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My opinion on allowable technology for XC, and technology that should not be allowed in XC flying. This is an opinion only!

Allowable:
Vehicle state data provided to pilot (such as altitude and airspeed)
Gyro provided rate stabilization (roll, yaw, pitch rate damping via gyro feedback)

Unallowable:
Onboard video downlinked to pilot
Determination of speed to fly via electronic and/or mechanical calculation.
Feedback (electronic or otherwise) intended to provide airspeed, course heading or waypoint navigation (i.e., no programmed or interactive flight route capability)

Questionable: real-time gps position data

This is in relation to XC flying, not the triangle racing. The gps data is definitely needed for triangle racing due to the situational awareness requirements of the task. I would prefer that gps data not get into XC flying due to the potential for the abuse of "line-of-sight" flight that I feel is essential to XC flying. Once one allows a video and/or gps, the event becomes dramatically different.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by zenoid View Post
I don't sell anything it's experimental inside my club.

You have it, the MP3V5004 is not an ultra precise transducter. But it's good enough after calibrating, oversampling and averaging. Don't compare apple to orange. What is the price factor bethween a real glider certified airspeed instrument and the 10$ chain discussed here ?
What I'll do, is to build an approximation of the LD and polar curve, not a certified one.
Zenoid,

When you develop a system, the first phase you have to make a kind of description of the basic requirements, content depending of complexity.
When we observe our aerodynamical matter (all models of variometers) there are two systems most important in that description, vertical speed measurement system and horizontal speed measurement system.

Because our instruments aren't basicly used for trading, healtcare, pubic safety etc, components don't have to certified.
My instrument, I did show, was certified because we did use it in a real glider.
Important is in that situation, the internal measuring elements are pneumatical connected with the other panel instruments (airspeed, altitude) so have to withstand tests and need certifying. Also the electrical/electronical part is observed.

In your case (about airspeed) only important is a calculation of expected accuracy of the total airspeed measurement system so included pitot and static tube, Pd/U transducer, compensation signals when used, A/D converter, and software.

Calculation in that case is not based on the transducer to measure pressure, but to measure airspeed and is basic requirement to qualify the results of all generated data in the future.

Next step can be calibrating but you'll see, that's a different story.


Cees
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe W View Post
My opinion on allowable technology for XC, and technology that should not be allowed in XC flying. This is an opinion only!

Allowable:
Vehicle state data provided to pilot (such as altitude and airspeed)
Gyro provided rate stabilization (roll, yaw, pitch rate damping via gyro feedback)

Unallowable:
Onboard video downlinked to pilot
Determination of speed to fly via electronic and/or mechanical calculation.
Feedback (electronic or otherwise) intended to provide airspeed, course heading or waypoint navigation (i.e., no programmed or interactive flight route capability)

Questionable: real-time gps position data

This is in relation to XC flying, not the triangle racing. The gps data is definitely needed for triangle racing due to the situational awareness requirements of the task. I would prefer that gps data not get into XC flying due to the potential for the abuse of "line-of-sight" flight that I feel is essential to XC flying. Once one allows a video and/or gps, the event becomes dramatically different.
Mike, jq and Joe,

No point for me to start a debat about your xc flying, please do and I read with you but, don't forget this is the thread of a member from the Netherlands. and we not even do fly XC!!

In this case I do not want to be threated as an outsider so let us make an appointment.

When there is a moment in the future we have to vote, I may use a multiplier of 10 for my vote AS THE ONLY PERSON.

Most important for you all, be aware I do have the most important input in this thread, not only because I am the starter, but I am also the only instrument engineer as fas as I know untill now!

If you don't accept (LOL), please keep on topic and read post 1 again.

Threat starter and contest director Taurus Flyer

Cees
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurus Flyer View Post
...

No debat is needed but nice to here other man opinions, thanks Joe.

...

Cees
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurus Flyer View Post

No point for me to start a debat about your xc flying, please do and I read with you but, don't forget this is the thread of a member from the Netherlands. and we not even do fly XC!!

...


If you don't accept (LOL), please keep on topic and read post 1 again.

Threat starter and contest director Taurus Flyer

Cees
Both the OP, and the thread title, reference XC flying. I had thought that opinions were desired on the subject. The subject of instrumentation on XC gliders includes IMO the idea of what should be used, especially in that the thread is explicitly introducing a bit more advanced instrumentation than is currently in use.

It appears that my thoughts and conclusions were in error. No more opinions from me...
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 05:53 PM
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Joe,

Subject is variometers, read post 1, what is used??

If you want to argue about the way to organze a XC, start your own thread, I think it is many years too late for that but I can be wrong.

About this thread?

I am surprized the Netto-, Relative Netto variometer and the Mc Cready facility aren't used in XC, even these are existing variometers for decades, and so can be used within any existing rules because these are VARIOMETERS. Only subject for discussion can be accept, yes or no, the final glide computer, IMO.

All other stuff?
Delete from the plane and only accept the added aquipment for location control by the officials, but to argue about that I didn't started this thread. Isn't also not interesting for me so I don't want to pull the thread for that!

Keep in mind I am an instrumentation engineer I can destroy the contest part of a glider with automation!!
Do you want me to show some examples? It is "off topic", but I am the thread starter!

I see it this way,

I do research for the fishing floats that are used and you want to argue about the amount of barrels of the gattling gun to accept.
(Think about what is left of the fish after you have catched it!)



Cees
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 06:52 PM
yyz
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Originally Posted by Taurus Flyer View Post
When there is a moment in the future we have to vote, I may use a multiplier of 10 for my vote AS THE ONLY PERSON.

Cees
Cees,

You win. The NETTO reading for driving educated and experience-backed opinions and valid concerns from your thread is 0. Knowledge around you not sinking nor climbing... Just zero.

Best of luck,

Mike
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 06:57 PM
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Cees,

it might come down to just ROI (Return on Investment) for equipment makers, the reason that you do not see any Netto varios.

The XC industry is very small, I'd say maybe less that 300 people/teams, and to develop and try and sell a new piece of equipment to those 300 might just be too costly to do so. At one time I had thoughts of developing some telemetry equipment but the costs of regulatory approval (i.e. FCC in the US) would have made too expensive to sell.

Now on the individual route, everything is almost always open.

Just my thougths.

- Bob -
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 08:35 PM
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Bob, thanks,

So now I do have some better indication these instruments probably don't exists!

About 300 people are involved with DS in the USA, but interesting is to know why I see that lag in the variometers is there because XC isn't the only part of modeling to use these instruments and snother point; arent most brands European?

An interesting little detail I discovered a well known manufacturer of modeling variometers does call the TE tube an elemant for airspeed compensation!!!

Principial wrong (so probably an electronic engineer)

I think lack of know how also can be a reason we see the lag!

Time out for a while but if people want respond please do.

And Mike, your post 40 is too complicated for me to translate, I not even understant if it is positve or negative!


Cees
.
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Old Feb 18, 2012, 12:33 AM
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[QUOTE=Joe W;20776642]My opinion on allowable technology for XC, and technology that should not be allowed in XC flying. This is an opinion only!

Allowable:
Vehicle state data provided to pilot (such as altitude and airspeed)
Gyro provided rate stabilization (roll, yaw, pitch rate damping via gyro feedback)

QUOTE]

Now this is interesting, "Gyro provided rate stabilization". I have long argued that XC would benefit from this, both in high altitude tracking and basic safety in being able to negotiate tree tunnels and legal turnpoint cuts, etc.. But many have dissagreed. At the very least a HH gyro on rudder should be ok.

Steve
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Old Feb 18, 2012, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taurus Flyer View Post
About 300 people are involved with DS in the USA, but interesting is to know why I see that lag in the variometers is there because XC isn't the only part of modeling to use these instruments and snother point; arent most brands European?

I think lack of know how also can be a reason we see the lag!

Cees
.
Cees,

I'm not sure how you mean "lag" - is it that XC is lagging the rest of modeling who use varios, or that the vario signal "lags" behind the real time rise/fall event ?

Yes, the two varios I've seen at XC meets here in the US are Picolario and Sky Melody, both from Germany I believe. There's a Westek I believe it is called, sorry if I got the name wrong.

- Bob -
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Old Feb 18, 2012, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by HLGNut View Post
Cees,

I'm not sure how you mean "lag" - is it that XC is lagging the rest of modeling who use varios, or that the vario signal "lags" behind the real time rise/fall event ?

Yes, the two varios I've seen at XC meets here in the US are Picolario and Sky Melody, both from Germany I believe. There's a Westek I believe it is called, sorry if I got the name wrong.

- Bob -
Bob,

Names aren't important, I also have to read them first before write them.

My observation is, lagging of development of variometers for modeling related to the real world also resulting in lack of knowledge of the modelers and probably manufacturers.
Normally not a too big problem when local flying, but XC is other cake because I nearly dare to say XC pilots are living in the middleages!

Arguments i did hear or read hard to believe.
ROI? Most of all variometer systems are European systems.so not related (DESIGNED FOR) XC fliying (Oval racing with a F1 car!)
Functionality? XC ers are voting about airspeed control of a glider but are badly informed!
Contest limitation? Mc Cready for example is especially related to XC so most important for XCflying

Maybe not all clear Bob, but IMO the gap is big and you all don't reslize!

Cees
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