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Old Jan 04, 2013, 05:50 PM
hass-alfed and bass-ackwards
carlsoti's Avatar
United States, AZ, Chandler
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Originally Posted by breakwater View Post
Most good skippers just let that stuff go, as it sucks all the fun out of the air. That's why we sail these things anyways... fun. Being a Hard-A$$ on the little stuff won't make anyone show-up next week.
I just felt this sentiment needed to be reiterated. I think that if you want to grow the class, you're better off putting your efforts into bringing in new blood, not just converting people from other classes. Harping on new guys about a minor infraction that has no effect on placing or position is the wrong way to make them feel like "part of the group."

My personal feeling is that these are NOT passenger carrying sailing vessels, just toy boats. No one's life is in danger if two toy boats collide. People should act accordingly, especially if it's "just another day at the pond" instead of an actual regatta.

If someone t-bones and sinks your boat, you have a right to be pissed off, but if 6 boats are in a tiny cluster 150ft away, and all are trying to make the mark, don't freak out because you saw contact that someone else didn't, and don't throw a fit if they don't barge their way OUT of that group to take their penalty turn.

Back to Marbleheads....

Is anyone besides one guy in AZ sailing the ORCO Skinny? I saw the mold for sale on EBay last week, but was unsure of the actual quality of the mold, so I didn't bid.

A local guy apparently knows the guy that designed it, and it was supposedly designed specifically for the "angel's breath" type winds we normally see here in AZ.

P.S. I disagree with NFL being a "Play-on" game, having known a few starting NFL players. That's a different topic altogether, and I don't frequent that area of RCG.
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Old Jan 04, 2013, 06:02 PM
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I know of one skinny that is in a basement in Denver. In light air the hot dog works well.
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Old Jan 04, 2013, 06:06 PM
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Carl - Do you have a picture of the Skinny?
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Old Jan 04, 2013, 06:24 PM
hass-alfed and bass-ackwards
carlsoti's Avatar
United States, AZ, Chandler
Joined Jun 2008
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Here's a link to the local club.

http://www.mesamodelyachtclub.com/

Unfortunately, it won't let me link pictures directly.

In the photo galleries there is a pic of the designer of the Orco Skinny, Swede Johnson. In the 2011 Marblehead NCR photo gallery, boat #98 is the Orco Skinny. Nothing really close up, though.

:EDIT: I take that back, way at the bottom of the NCR photos are a few close ups of the Orco and it's rigging.

Earlier in this thread someone posted the shadows, but I can't envision how a boat looks just by looking at those, unless I'm just comparing a tug-boat to a catamaran.
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Old Jan 04, 2013, 09:49 PM
FROM THE MIND OF A MADMAN
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Orco Skinny and Hot dog are two different designs.
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Old Jan 05, 2013, 04:24 PM
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The Orco Skinny is a specific-designed light-air boat. As such it excells in certain conditions, but is not good as an "overall" performer.
It's an M that would work well at a place like, well Arizona with light air and low chop on the pond.

The reason it is not a good overall performer is it is designed with such low displacement weight. it doesn't have enough mass to carry through a tack, and is very tender in a chop. It lacks the mass to drive through waves.


Anyways,
The beauty of the M-Class is these boats are all different. Some work better in certain places than others.
This one is a 9.5lb boat ready to sail. For a well-rounded boat it's below my not-official curious line of "are there any top-performing Ms under 10lbs."
Great boat in Arizona. Not so great in Fleetwood
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 12:39 PM
Don't lie to my dog.
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United States, DE, Wilmington
Joined Jun 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlsoti View Post
My personal feeling is that these are NOT passenger carrying sailing vessels, just toy boats. No one's life is in danger if two toy boats collide. People should act accordingly, especially if it's "just another day at the pond" instead of an actual regatta.

If someone t-bones and sinks your boat, you have a right to be pissed off, but if 6 boats are in a tiny cluster 150ft away, and all are trying to make the mark, don't freak out because you saw contact that someone else didn't, and don't throw a fit if they don't barge their way OUT of that group to take their penalty turn.
I cmpletely disagree. Would you allow a knight to move any way your chess oppanent wanted to because the actual rules are too complicated? Or would you let your Candyland foe move ahead 2 blue squares instead of just 1? Good rules make good games. Whatching a group of sailors sail a good clean race using the rules to their advantage is a thing of beauty. It is also a very calm event. 99% of the time, when an arguement or scene evolves it is because one or more participants were not following the rules.
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 03:18 PM
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BW, What's the significants of 10lbs? I can make my Scalpel less then 10lbs with a smaller bulb/less wetted surface/drag and still be very competittive. At the last Nationals that would have been the way to go.
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 03:29 PM
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There is no significance of the 10lb all-up weight.. it's only a rule of thumb. It seems that Ms less than 10lbs ready to sail start giving up ground because they don't have enough mass to drive. A heavy boat is not necessarily a bad thing. Just not too heavy, and weight in the right places.
I've only thought that 10lbs is the lower-limit for Ms, below that they're really light, or start lacking in the quality department because the hull laminate is just so paper thin.

We talked about this a little bit previously in this thread. There weren't any Ms that were sub 10lbs all-up, aside from retrofitted IOM bulbs on Ms for those drifter-days.
Obviously if the wind is blowing 3mph max, your best to float a feather out there.


Is 10lbs set in stone? absolutely not...
but surely there is a lower-wieght limit where a boat is just too light to be able to perform.
The actual number is variable because each M is different. 10lbs is just a "average" some designs might be able to be well-rounded boats under that mark. Others' can't.
All Marbleheads 50/800s are different, and that's what makes them fun.
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Last edited by breakwater; Jan 06, 2013 at 03:35 PM.
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 04:21 PM
hass-alfed and bass-ackwards
carlsoti's Avatar
United States, AZ, Chandler
Joined Jun 2008
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I guess I wasn't concise enough with the point I was trying to make. I'm not saying that the rules shouldn't be followed. My comment is directed more at how experienced sailors act toward newbies while enforcing the rules.

Sailing in Mesa, AZ today was a prime example of the correct way to do things. The forecast was WAY off. Instead of 7-10mph, it was glassy all morning. The first race took nearly 20 minutes. In a decent wind, this length of race would normally take just two or three minutes. Today, on more than one occasion, boats bunched up at the mark, and there was a little bumping. There was nothing anyone could do to get more space between the boats, except give up halfway to the mark and pull your boat out of the water. No one freaked out. Sometimes a little bumping is no one's fault. Or maybe it's everybody's fault. It doesn't matter, because the situation was handled properly. We all went to have fun, and aside from a lack of wind, I think we all did.

A few examples of how NOT to handle rule infractions:

I've seen guys get stalled at a mark, then bitch and moan about "four boat lengths" overtaking while everyone else sailed away from them. When I asked that person what distance four boat lenghts was, he couldn't answer correctly. The correct answer is NOT 200 inches. Then there was bunch of "I protest your protest" nonsense. Not sailing. NONSENSE.

Here's the big hairy situation that helped form my opinion.

I've seen a sailor get so bent out of shape that he crashed into a mark and got stuck on the anchor line because of he was trying to get the other guy to turn due to incidental contact that the first guy didn't try to avoid because he "had rights," knowing the other guy was not in a position to be able to do anything about it.

If you crash your boat into a stationary boat (caught "in irons" because they WERE playing by the rules) because you "have rights", you may be playing within the rules, but you look like a German purse, especially if it's done while fighting to not be last place.

It's not that I don't think the rules shouldn't be used, but they shouldn't be used to screw up someone else's day just because your life sucks and your boat is slow.

On another note, I WOULD like to be a part of some regular r/c sailboat racing instead of pretend real-boat racing. The rules are simple. No jumping the start, turn outside the mark, first to the finish wins. I've done this with a couple friends, and it's a lot more fun, as far as I'm concerned. But I'm not saying ALL sailboat racing should be like that.

P.S. After having typed all that, I do recall a bit that made today a little "less fun" for this newbie. On one of my first turns today, I went WAY wide of it, giving room for a boat that I thought would pass me through the turn. He also went wide of the mark, pushing me into the corner of the pond. Eventually, I drifted sideways, all the way back into mark. There was nothing I could do. Once the air started moving, I cleared the mark, made my turn, and limped over the finish line, second to last. One place behind the guy that drove me to the corner.

I didn't gripe about it, because he had rights to drive me to the corner. But he didn't gain anything from it, and all it did was leave my boat stalled in the corner, keeping me from doing any sailing. That's taking the fun away from someone on a free-sail day.
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 07:44 PM
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My new bumper sticker "your life sucks and your boat is slow"
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 08:00 PM
FROM THE MIND OF A MADMAN
gpzy's Avatar
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My new bumper sticker "your life sucks and your boat is slow"
This made my day.
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 08:53 PM
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What do these rules discussions have anything to do with the Marblehead class since rules are universal regardless of class, and the enforcement (or lack thereof) of them relys on whomever is conducting the race.

Please, we're supposed to be talking about the M. Not a sailing tactics and rules discussion.
This petty stuff doesn't help this class any, and anyone in here obviously cares about the class. So why hurt it?





Remember how there are a few skippers that see a pile-up coming and chose to take the clear air? You'll never finish first, if you don't finish.

Continuing down this road is, cearly, a great way to make a pig-pile.


Topic:
Marblehead 50/800......And Moving forward.
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 09:35 PM
hass-alfed and bass-ackwards
carlsoti's Avatar
United States, AZ, Chandler
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Fair enough. FWIW, a superlight, sub 10 pound, maybe even sub 7 pound marblehead would've ruled the course today.

I shouldn't complain. I feel for you guys up in the snow-belt states.
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Old Jan 06, 2013, 09:40 PM
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Fair enough. FWIW, a superlight, sub 10 pound, maybe even sub 7 pound marblehead would've ruled the course today.

I shouldn't complain. I feel for you guys up in the snow-belt states.
Are you able to retrofit a IOM or similar Bulb on your boat for the drifter days?
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