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Old Nov 15, 2012, 10:31 PM
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Dick L.'s Avatar
Minnesota, USA
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Ted- I think the number of Marbleheads, where they are, what type/class, if they race are all points that was part of the discussion on "Marblehead Racing". Getting boats to turn out and on the water is what the original suggestions were near the start of the thread - and doing that without records, information from class secretaries AND AMYA administration is an effort in futility. If the original (or new) owner isn't/doesn't notify the class secretary, we are counting on folks who "don't" race to find this forum or others and eventually wind up at the AMYA site - only to find posted but questionable information. I think there may even be some classes that "flirt" with the required 20 registered members, and am personally knowledgeable of one builder who was buying memberships for people who didn't even know him - or own his products. Once 20 were registered, he felt he could then point to an AMYA class in order to promote his own designs.

I guess what we might all be saying is that if there are 20 registered AMYA member/owners - who cares how many more there are - since no one can seem to point to a legitimate number - and as noted, there are probably more r/c boats sailing that aren't part of the AMYA organization - no different than the number of big boats that drop off a class list of owners. (I am also intimately familiar with that scenario as well).

Does it matter? I'm not sure, but it is guys like you (class secretaries) who are being pointed at as the place where the class number information comes from. I have no idea if you are being kept advised of paid memberships so you can check your records against those of AMYA. If the "real" numbers are important, I have no idea where to start for verification.

Just a question - when boats register in the OPEN Class, and eventually get their own class - do they continue to be listed/counted twice? What about dual registrations in the US1M and the ODOM classes? Another place for dual counts?

Again, maybe for sake of mental health - anything over 20 (here in US) seems to be meaningless - since the class is already recognized. As for Marbleheads - if they show up, they show up..... but the class is already established.

Just sayin'
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 10:44 PM
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United States, MA, Wenham
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Originally Posted by Dick L. View Post
I guess what we might all be saying is that if there are 20 registered AMYA member/owners - who cares how many more there are - since no one can seem to point to a legitimate number - and as noted, there are probably more r/c boats sailing that aren't part of the AMYA organization - no different than the number of big boats that drop off a class list of owners. (I am also intimately familiar with that scenario as well).
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Originally Posted by Dick L. View Post
Again, maybe for sake of mental health - anything over 20 (here in US) seems to be meaningless - since the class is already recognized. As for Marbleheads - if they show up, they show up..... but the class is already established.
It matters a great deal to me.

I want to sail where the action is. I, pick classes that are organised, active, promoted, and have lots of participants to show up to the pond when I do.

Another class I participate in just had 40 skippers at a Nationals. Not a list of 40 members in the class. A National event. Not bad, doesn't that make you want to go?




If a class is at 20 boats it's either in growth mode (requires promoting), or death mode (requires saving) I would like to see all classes be successful, but, personally I don't sail in, or risk purchasing a boat with only a few participants for those reasons.

It's most likely that there are more boats and skippers in existance than what the AMYA "official" numbers read, but regardless...... I, as a personal preference, chose boats I like.... at the top of the participation list. Let the other chips fall where they may.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 10:08 AM
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United States, MI, Bloomfield Hills
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Have any of you experienced M builders/sailors looked at or built a Gothic M?

This one:
http://www.frankrusselldesign.com/Go...ree%20Plan.pdf
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 11:08 AM
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United States, DE, Wilmington
Joined Jun 2005
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Another very nice looking boat from Frank Russell. I do have to question, however, whether chines would be beneficial on a Marblehead. The boat is so long and thin, I would think that they would be superfluous.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 12:21 PM
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I have only had the chance to sail with one Marblehead with chines. It's a Paradox from Bantock.

The owner has passed me the transmitter a few times, and man, it locks in.
I think it is the stern chines, but carrying a big rig the boat lays over on them and locks-in.


By comparison, my Viper, with continuous ellipses in the stern, tends to round-up and hunt for the breeze. When it finds where it wants to be, then it locks in and goes.



It seems a lot of the IOM boats are also putting these stern chines in. I'm not sure, but is that the reasoning?
I don't know what chines forward of the keel would gain you... Those seem superfluous.



As of now, the Paradox is the fastest M on my pond. But it/he can be beaten.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 12:41 PM
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Another very nice looking boat from Frank Russell. I do have to question, however, whether chines would be beneficial on a Marblehead. The boat is so long and thin, I would think that they would be superfluous.
The current World Champion, Brad Gibson, has chines on his boat, certainly didn't hurt him in light air in France and in heavy air at the British Nationals he was even faster relative to the fleet. As an owner of an IOM Britpop I can tell you that when the boat is powered up it "Locks in" just as Breakwater says.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TedFlack View Post
The current World Champion, Brad Gibson, has chines on his boat, certainly didn't hurt him in light air in France and in heavy air at the British Nationals he was even faster relative to the fleet. As an owner of an IOM Britpop I can tell you that when the boat is powered up it "Locks in" just as Breakwater says.
I understand the benefit of rear chines on an IOM. In effect they reduce the the buoyancy in the stern when healed (upwind), keeping the bow out of the water and increasing the AOA on the fin. However, on an M, which is longer, thinner and the same displacement, that effect would be minimized. Maybe it is beneficial, maybe not, but I would suppose that it would be far less than an IOM.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 03:28 PM
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Louisville, KY
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Originally Posted by TedFlack View Post
Have any of you experienced M builders/sailors looked at or built a Gothic M?

This one:
http://www.frankrusselldesign.com/Go...ree%20Plan.pdf
Here is one in progress in New Zealand:

http://radiosailingshop.com.au/index...age=page&id=11

I am considering building one myself. Have a Monarch to finish first though.

Brian
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TedFlack View Post
The current World Champion, Brad Gibson, has chines on his boat, certainly didn't hurt him in light air in France and in heavy air at the British Nationals he was even faster relative to the fleet. As an owner of an IOM Britpop I can tell you that when the boat is powered up it "Locks in" just as Breakwater says.

But!
There's a give and take with every design. A design that "Locks in" has to "un-lock" when it turns! The race course isn't just one direction all the time!

Case & Point (but in a different class) is the Double-ender J boat "Whirlwind" The boat locks-in upwind, but can't get of it's own way when it deviates from that!




Are stern-chines beneficial on an M? I don't know, but it seems as though the next generation of Ms are buying into that thought. I, for one can watch a Paradox power-up and take off much faster than my Viper can power-up. I have to beat him in other places on the race-course. (in paticular, pointing.. My eliptical hull, and elipical mainsail love to attach at a point that's basically "pinching" for other boats)


This, is why the M Class is so much fun! You can do whatever you feel like inside of 50/800.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 04:59 PM
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Case & Point (but in a different class) is the Double-ender J boat "Whirlwind" The boat locks-in upwind, but can't get of it's own way when it deviates from that!
Oh yeah,
Incase anyone is wondering, YUP! the M-Class has tried double-enders. The're pretty cool.
One paticularly good one was called the "Epic"
There are a few of those around that are actively sailed. I wish there were a hundred.

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Old Nov 16, 2012, 05:53 PM
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The owner has passed me the transmitter a few times, and man, it locks in.
I think it is the stern chines, but carrying a big rig the boat lays over on them and locks-in
I think you are over estimating the contribution of the chines on "locking in." A well balanced, well trimmed boat will feel "locked in" going to weather with or without chines. I seriously think that their contribution to lateral stability is negligible.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 06:22 PM
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I think you are over estimating the contribution of the chines on "locking in." A well balanced, well trimmed boat will feel "locked in" going to weather with or without chines. I seriously think that their contribution to lateral stability is negligible.
I agree. For the sake of conversation, I too feel I am over-estimating the chines.

All I know is I feel like They helped. The owner of the paradox said nothing about the design, just gave it to me... So I'm not brainwashed.


His boat is faster than mine, that's probably just one of the reasons why.



Funny part is, the paradox is an "old" boat, with these Stern chines on it.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 09:37 PM
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One of my dreams for this class has been that someone took the lines plans from larger boats, and scaled them to the 50/800 platform.

Man would it be cool to see the entire J-boat fleet scaled to 50/800.
Ranger, Lionheart, Svea, Enterprise, Enterprise II, Endeavour.. etc.

Even the 12 meters could be scaled to 50/800.
Columbia, Constellation, Heritage..... etc.


You could even Scale IODs, Star.... anything can be sailed as an M!



There's only 1 scaled J-boat to 50 inches that I know of. Done by Boucher, and plans are available:
http://pages.swcp.com/usvmyg/plans/plans.htm

Sure, some might be better than others when scaled.... But, some Ms are better than others.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 08:21 AM
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One of my dreams for this class has been that someone took the lines plans from larger boats, and scaled them to the 50/800 platform.

Man would it be cool to see the entire J-boat fleet scaled to 50/800.
Ranger, Lionheart, Svea, Enterprise, Enterprise II, Endeavour.. etc.

Even the 12 meters could be scaled to 50/800.
Columbia, Constellation, Heritage..... etc.


You could even Scale IODs, Star.... anything can be sailed as an M!



There's only 1 scaled J-boat to 50 inches that I know of. Done by Boucher, and plans are available:
http://pages.swcp.com/usvmyg/plans/plans.htm

Sure, some might be better than others when scaled.... But, some Ms are better than others.
Or you could work from the other end and scale up by 2:1 the wealth of RG65 designs available.
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Old Nov 18, 2012, 08:23 AM
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Or you could work from the other end and scale up by 2:1 the wealth of RG65 designs available.
That's pretty funny.
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