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Old Nov 10, 2012, 09:54 PM
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United States, MA, Wenham
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Originally Posted by Houdini13 View Post
Hi Ted -
I liked your question and wieghed my boat as you asked. The top three boats at the 2012 USA MH Nationals were all the same hull, keel/bulb and rudders. All around the same vintage and Walicki made very few changes at that time. The sails were different and some of the masts so I can not give you a 'all up wieght' of each boat.
- Hull: 2lbs .6oz (.925kg)
- Keel fin and Bulb: 7lbs 1.2oz (3.210kg)
- Boat/Keel/Rudder: 9lbs 2.8oz (4.160kg)
Phew that's awesome.
How much does your A rig weigh?
-I don't know what my M Rigs weigh, I do know my very competitive EC-12 rigs weigh 13oz. My M rigs might actually be heavier.
-does that weight include batteries? ( I assume not)



I'm making an asumption, but adding a battery (that's about 4oz) and a rig (assuming 13oz) to your Boat/Keel/Rudder weight of 9lbs 2.8oz brings your all-up ready-to-race weight to 10lbs 3.8oz.....

I'm not in the least looking to prove a point that a ready-to race boat doesn't sail at less than 10lbs... I'm just very curious if there are any? (except the IOM bulbs on Ms for drifter, hope-you win days)
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 09:14 AM
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United States, MI, Bloomfield Hills
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Thanks Eric, that is exactly what I was looking for.

We have a few Marbleheads here and a few guys think we need a weight rule to even things out. I'm pretty sure the finishes wouldn't change at all no matter what the weights are. They are talking about 10.5 pounds with no rig. I think my boat would sink if I had to add that much weight

The boat I sailed last year weighs 8 pounds 14+ ounces (no battery-no rig) so it is about 2 onces lighter than your boat. The fin is bonded into the hull so I can't weigh each part separately. I borrowed it from a club member to see how I would like the M class and I have to admit I really enjoyed sailing that boat so I found an old Sterne boat to buy and fix up over the winter.

My main class is still the IOM so I can't spend a lot of money on an M boat, I love to travel to regattas so that uses up all my toy money. I will say that the M class is probably the best bargain in the AMYA these days, boats can be found cheap and they are great fun to sail. We average 8 boats every other week which is pretty good around here for any class.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by breakwater View Post
Don't forget.
You can enter 1 fin/Bulb setup into a regatta......
Most change their boat tenderness with the Rigs... I know you're fully aware, but just sayin' An 8lb Viper is probably not the best bet for the win.......

......Unless of course we all agree to hold a 2-day Marblehead event in Redds Pond next August.
I am well aware of the rules on bulb changes. Our venue doesn't change that much over time, so I don't even bother bringing a B rig or heavy keel to the pond. Once I got the boat dialed I was either 1st or 2nd. Hard to argue with results. I also won the 10r regionals with the same boat in heavy air (had a storm that week end). For that regatta I sailed with the heavy keel knowing that the wind would be up. Best tool for the job.
One of my older M's went through several keel iterations, deep keel (26")/ heavy bulb(3.2kg) best result 4th, shorter keel (22")/2.5kg bulb it placed as high as 2nd. I tried as light as 3.5lb on the keel but it would loose the ability to tack too soon with that bulb. It was fast, but the wind range was limited. In light air only lighter was faster as proven out by results in fleet racing.
I would not have sailed that boat in SD with the light bulb since with a heavy bulb you can carry the A rig to the highest normal wind speeds. This is a development class. Why not include the sailing conditions as a design variable?
I have never sailed an M in open water with high wind, so why should I sail a boat that does well in those conditions. I predominantly sail in light air, small ponds, with good depth, so my boats are optimized for those conditions. Much like your boats are shallow so they can be sailed in reds pond.
Back to the question asked, lighter in the hull is always better, then match the bulb weight to the conditions usually sailed at that venue. That holds true for the skalpel as well. They are faster in wind below 8 mph with a lighter keel.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedFlack View Post
We have a few Marbleheads here and a few guys think we need a weight rule to even things out. I'm pretty sure the finishes wouldn't change at all no matter what the weights are. They are talking about 10.5 pounds with no rig. I think my boat would sink if I had to add that much weight.
It's funny you should mention that.
Some around my area have drawn up the idea of making a weight rule as well. They have proposed that the boat itself (no keel/bulb rigs and etc) should weigh a minumum of 2lbs.
That would mean light boats I.E. my Kevlar Viper, or a Skapel would need to add a corrector weight inside the hull to meet the minimum boat weight.


As personal opinion, I'm opposed to it.
The whole point of the M-class is development, I don't want to limit the design envelope......
Some boats are just better than others. But at the end of the day you also need to have a skipper that can make that fast boat fast.

As mentioned, a good skipper can make a slow boat fast. A bad skipper can make a fast boat slow.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by TedFlack View Post
My main class is still the IOM so I can't spend a lot of money on an M boat, I love to travel to regattas so that uses up all my toy money. I will say that the M class is probably the best bargain in the AMYA these days, boats can be found cheap and they are great fun to sail. We average 8 boats every other week which is pretty good around here for any class.
I'm glad you share that sentiment.
I'm in the process of putting back together a couple Ms that fell off the wagon.
They are Carbon boats, and pretty quick in their day.

If you're familiar with an "Archer" i'm putting one of those back together. It's going to cost less than $50 all said and done to correctly re-build it and put it in the water.

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Old Nov 11, 2012, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by breakwater View Post
It's funny you should mention that.
Some around my area have drawn up the idea of making a weight rule as well. They have proposed that the boat itself (no keel/bulb rigs and etc) should weigh a minumum of 2lbs.
That would mean light boats I.E. my Kevlar Viper, or a Skapel would need to add a corrector weight inside the hull to meet the minimum boat weight.
If you want to handicap the boats, instead of using weight, consider use righting moment instead. Set a maximum depth for the CG. If its too deep, then go to a shorter keel, remove bulb weight, or add weight to the hull. It can be easy to check and would provide a more level playing field for the older boats.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by slotracer577 View Post
If you want to handicap the boats, instead of using weight, consider use righting moment instead. Set a maximum depth for the CG. If its too deep, then go to a shorter keel, remove bulb weight, or add weight to the hull. It can be easy to check and would provide a more level playing field for the older boats.
I'm opposed to handicapping boats at all... but that's just my opinion. I don't want to limit anything...
there are others in this class, and atleast we're talking, and frequently, toward a resolution.


My idea is...
Don't limit ANY Marblehead design. Sail them all, and score them as what they are, and the era they are from.
There are faster boats in each category that pushed the limits of design, and eventually brought about the NEXT era of design!

-Traditional
-High-Flyer
-Classic
-Modern


All four of these design types could sail together if they had to. Scoring them together, we all know, is foolish Where the more modern boats will likely finish first.
Each era boat is scored with the other boats within the same era.


I'd like to see nothing more than so many boats in an event that they just CAN'T be scored together. In that case.. why not a 4-day Marblehead EVENT!!!. Each day gets their own era.
But, as it is in the USA if 8 boats show up to our M-class nationals, who cares what era they are from? 8 competitors is LAME.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 06:53 PM
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This, is just another Marblehead.

It happens to be called an "Archer"
The sail numbers happen to be 3003, which means there are Three-thousand and two other Marbleheads out there somewhere that were registered before this one.

This one weighs: 8lbs 14oz without any electronics currently installed.
-7lbs 9oz of that is keel & lead ballast.

I am putting it back together.
It's going to cost less than $50 to get the boat to sail.

I tell you what.
When we hold the M-Class Nationals at Redds Pond next summer, Anyone who would like to can "Charter" this boat no questions asked.... There we go- We should have 9 entries now.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 07:49 PM
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BW-
Is that confirmed, Reeds Pond has the MH Nats in 2013?
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 08:50 PM
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Well,
It should be somewhere. You mentioned you wouldn't come if it were in Redds. So let's get together and figure out where it's going to be.

I mean, Some classes have events scheduled all the way through December 2013....
http://www.ec12.org/Regattas/Regatta-Schedule.htm
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 12:06 PM
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So guys - want to explain the differences in US and International Class rules please? And if built to one, obviously not legal in the other - or are they? Finally - the question "why" would US go off on their own, especially for an international class of yacht.

Thanks for education & history.

Dick
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 02:08 PM
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Dick,
My understanding is the US never adopted the international rules, so over time they have drifted apart. I think an international boat will be US legal, but a US boat could be too deep to meet the international rules. The international depth limit is 660mm measured from a spot 100mm wide on the hull. The US rules do not have a depth limit. Other than the depth limit the only differences are the mm to in conversion rounding, which should not make a boat illegal.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 02:21 PM
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Thanks - but just a question which came up based on your answer ...... the 100mm (roughly 4 inches) wide spot on the hull for depth measurement. Does this (seem) to indicate the hull would have to be a minimum of 4 inches (100mm) wide at the point where the keel meets the hull for this international measurement?

Sorry - but am thinking of a possible winter build, and want to be sure of measurements before proceeding. Thanks again.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 04:08 PM
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Either way, US or International..... you have to be a Harvard lawyer to be able to understand the M-Class rules!
Let's just make them simple. If you have an M... PUT IT IN THE WATER AND SEE WHERE YOU END UP.


But, to acutally answer your question.

2 different times in this class there were proposed rule changes to make a minimum weight requirement, and a max draft. Both times the rule changes failed The vote was very near 50/50, with the Walilcki type boat owners voting against the weight & draft restrictions. As a result the US Class rules remained the same, as what you see (and is 15 damn pages long!) Without a max draft or weight.
http://www.theamya.org/boats/marblehead/

Then, later on... the English established an "International" Marblehead class, with a Max draft of 660mm as discussed.
The USA Just fell asleap at the wheel on that one, and didn't do anything about it.
http://radioyachtingnz.files.wordpre...02_cr_isaf.pdf


So, as we stand today, there are USA Rules and International rules.




So, If you were to build one, what should you build to?
International rules. Why? A ISAF Marblehead will qualify as a US Marblehead.
Although, if you home-building, the Max draft of ISAF rules is 660mm... That is 25.9843 Inches. I doubt you can home-build a boat with that massive draft, so don't worry about it either way.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Dick L. View Post
Finally - the question "why" would US go off on their own, especially for an international class of yacht.
The US never went off on it's own.
The US invented the class!
The world then fell in love with it and made their own rule-set. (which, by the way I think they make sense, but that's another topic)

But, through all the development the US, and the World left all those older boats that were the the "roots" of development in it's wake.
How many Ms that were perfectly good to sail ended up in the dumpster because someone designed something just a bit faster.



Durrrrrrr
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