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Old Feb 07, 2012, 10:14 PM
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AMA Insurance

Here's the place for it. Please get it out of my "Will regulation by AMA be better than FAA's?" thread.
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Last edited by abel pranger; Feb 11, 2012 at 07:21 PM. Reason: Change thread title -was off-top for thread, but not for forum
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Old Feb 08, 2012, 04:31 AM
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This reply is to BillM, There is no way to guarantee that an individuals insurance will always
be in effect be AMA or any other type on insurance, I dont see why a signed document
would not hold up in court there cases where a person is asked to sign just such a doc
I would think if they were worthless no one use them.

As far as the land owner being sued because of someone not having insurance not likley
because he does not have direct control of day to day operations at the site.

As far as the club being sued again not likley as long as they can show they took reasonable steps
to insure that people they let fly had insurance. Lets say someone came to the field that
was not a AMA member and tripped and fell they said it was because of something the club
did and they sued the club and landlord. The landlords defense will be it was not reasonable
for them to know about every possible thing that the club might do to cause a hazard.
Of course here in the USA you can sue anyone for anything with out having a valid reason
to do so but winning is another matter. I'm not a attorney but I think I am pretty close to the facts.
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Old Feb 08, 2012, 10:29 AM
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ira d
If you are a member in good standing in the AMA you have coverage under the AMA insurance policies (there are several) until midnight Dec,31 of the year in question. You might even be covered longer if you have joined late in the year.
That's it.


Take some time to examine HO ins. Your coverage can be cancelled for any number of reasons. You might miss a payment (not possible with AMA ins).
There might have been a problem with your application (example a little white lie) or excessive claims against your policy. Your policy might not cover model aircraft--not very common today but still somewhat possible.

Can you purchase insurance specificly for model aviation?
Possibly but it wont be cheap because it would be written as an individual policy. The AMA program is essentially a group policy where the cost is spread among all the members.

What you do is entirely up to you. You don't need to be an AMA member to enjoy this hobby but you already know that.

BM
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Old Feb 08, 2012, 12:39 PM
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Ok Bill you get to have the last word.
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Old Feb 08, 2012, 12:55 PM
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In response to S3NFO the landlord has a separate policy that protects them in spite of
what a individual may do.
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Old Feb 09, 2012, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ira d View Post
In response to S3NFO the landlord has a separate policy that protects them in spite of
what a individual may do.
So, I'm a land owner contemplating letting a model airplane club use my land and need to ensure my ass(ets) are covered. I can:
A - Require the club to ensure all members and flyers are AMA members and club provides AMA Site Owner coverage. My involvement as the site owner involves telling the club what they need to do to meet my needs and zero financial investment on my part. The clubs involvememt is to ensure all members are AMA members by checking AMA cards annually and the AMA Site Owner is covered or,
B- Tell the club that they must provide insurance of some sort to cover my ass(ets), in which case the club can:
1 - require all members and flyers join AMA (see A above) or,
2 - get a separate insurance policy from a local insurance provider to cover the landowner which would require the club to list all flyers on the insurance rider to ensure the insurance company has a defined liability. My involvement as the land owner involves telling the club what to do to meet my needs. The clubs involvement is to find an insurance provider who will write them a policy, get a quote, collect prorated funds from all members to pay for the insurance, redo the agreement and funding "fair share" everytime a new member joins, or,
C - Get an insurance policy at my expense to cover myself from any accident that the club might cause while on my property My involvement as the land owner means I'll have to find the insurance company to cover me and pay the premium out of my pocket to cover the club.

As a land owner, I'm going for option A every single time, why should I as the land owner or pay anything so you can fly on my land!
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Old Feb 09, 2012, 11:48 AM
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S3NFO you're correct the site insurance is the best carrot every to get a flying site.

There are some restrictions though that can ruffle some people, but then those restrictions may not be true depending on who you talk to.
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Old Feb 09, 2012, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by S3NFO View Post
So, I'm a land owner contemplating letting a model airplane club use my land and need to ensure my ass(ets) are covered. I can:
A - Require the club to ensure all members and flyers are AMA members and club provides AMA Site Owner coverage. My involvement as the site owner involves telling the club what they need to do to meet my needs and zero financial investment on my part. The clubs involvememt is to ensure all members are AMA members by checking AMA cards annually and the AMA Site Owner is covered or,
B- Tell the club that they must provide insurance of some sort to cover my ass(ets), in which case the club can:
1 - require all members and flyers join AMA (see A above) or,
2 - get a separate insurance policy from a local insurance provider to cover the landowner which would require the club to list all flyers on the insurance rider to ensure the insurance company has a defined liability. My involvement as the land owner involves telling the club what to do to meet my needs. The clubs involvement is to find an insurance provider who will write them a policy, get a quote, collect prorated funds from all members to pay for the insurance, redo the agreement and funding "fair share" everytime a new member joins, or,
C - Get an insurance policy at my expense to cover myself from any accident that the club might cause while on my property My involvement as the land owner means I'll have to find the insurance company to cover me and pay the premium out of my pocket to cover the club.

As a land owner, I'm going for option A every single time, why should I as the land owner or pay anything so you can fly on my land!

Not sure why an individual’s AMA membership is often construed as absolving a land owner of liability concerns resulting from modeling activities, incidental or directly.

A litmus test to ponder; if an AMA member or members were simply allowed to fly on your property and somehow injures another person while on or around your property... How does that absolve the land owner of liability? It is only the primary policy provided to the land owner that will protect the land owner... Has nothing to do with the individual’s AMA membership secondary liability protection he has for himself...as the member.


Secondly and more importantly, some states actually have laws that protect land owners that allow use of their land for recreational activities. Texas does, and model aviation is specifically named. If you do not live in one of those type states, you should either make an effort to change that situation or move.
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Old Feb 10, 2012, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by S3NFO View Post
So, I'm a land owner contemplating letting a model airplane club use my land and need to ensure my ass(ets) are covered. I can:
A - Require the club to ensure all members and flyers are AMA members and club provides AMA Site Owner coverage. My involvement as the site owner involves telling the club what they need to do to meet my needs and zero financial investment on my part. The clubs involvememt is to ensure all members are AMA members by checking AMA cards annually and the AMA Site Owner is covered or,
B- Tell the club that they must provide insurance of some sort to cover my ass(ets), in which case the club can:
1 - require all members and flyers join AMA (see A above) or,
2 - get a separate insurance policy from a local insurance provider to cover the landowner which would require the club to list all flyers on the insurance rider to ensure the insurance company has a defined liability. My involvement as the land owner involves telling the club what to do to meet my needs. The clubs involvement is to find an insurance provider who will write them a policy, get a quote, collect prorated funds from all members to pay for the insurance, redo the agreement and funding "fair share" everytime a new member joins, or,
C - Get an insurance policy at my expense to cover myself from any accident that the club might cause while on my property My involvement as the land owner means I'll have to find the insurance company to cover me and pay the premium out of my pocket to cover the club.

As a land owner, I'm going for option A every single time, why should I as the land owner or pay anything so you can fly on my land!
AMA clubs will supply the land owner a policy at no charge that is the main
reason many land owner dont concern themselfs with the clubs internal
business.
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Old Feb 10, 2012, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by littlecrankshaft View Post
Not sure why an individualís AMA membership is often construed as absolving a land owner of liability concerns resulting from modeling activities, incidental or directly.

A litmus test to ponder; if an AMA member or members were simply allowed to fly on your property and somehow injures another person while on or around your property... How does that absolve the land owner of liability? It is only the primary policy provided to the land owner that will protect the land owner... Has nothing to do with the individualís AMA membership secondary liability protection he has for himself...as the member.

<<snip>>

Ummm, nothing I said construes AMA Individual coverage absolves liability to the land owner, that's why I said "and club provides AMA Site Owner coverage". Club need to provide the optional and extra expense Site Owner coverage!
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Old Feb 10, 2012, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by S3NFO View Post
Ummm, nothing I said construes AMA Individual coverage absolves liability to the land owner, that's why I said "and club provides AMA Site Owner coverage". Club need to provide the optional and extra expense Site Owner coverage!
Maybe I misunderstood... You said:

So, I'm a land owner contemplating letting a model airplane club use my land and need to ensure my ass(ets) are covered. I can:
A - Require the club to ensure all members and flyers are AMA members and club provides AMA Site Owner coverage. My involvement as the site owner involves telling the club what they need to do to meet my needs and zero financial investment on my part. The clubs involvememt is to ensure all members are AMA members by checking AMA cards annually and the AMA Site Owner is covered or,
B- Tell the club that they must provide insurance of some sort to cover my ass(ets), in which case the club can:
1 - require all members and flyers join AMA (see A above) or,


See...

"flyers are AMA members" and "require all members and flyers join AMA"

Seems to sugest AMA membership conveys protection to you as a land owner...but I guess I just read it wrong somehow.
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Old Feb 10, 2012, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by littlecrankshaft View Post
Maybe I misunderstood... You said:

So, I'm a land owner contemplating letting a model airplane club use my land and need to ensure my ass(ets) are covered. I can:
A - Require the club to ensure all members and flyers are AMA members and club provides AMA Site Owner coverage. My involvement as the site owner involves telling the club what they need to do to meet my needs and zero financial investment on my part. The clubs involvememt is to ensure all members are AMA members by checking AMA cards annually and the AMA Site Owner is covered or,
B- Tell the club that they must provide insurance of some sort to cover my ass(ets), in which case the club can:
1 - require all members and flyers join AMA (see A above) or,


See...

"flyers are AMA members" and "require all members and flyers join AMA"

Seems to sugest AMA membership conveys protection to you as a land owner...but I guess I just read it wrong somehow.
If I had my druthers, I would have a liability insurance policy covering my modeling activity that also indemnifies the owner of the land I'm using for a flying site at the instant - as an unnamed 'also insured,' unnamed to make the coverage portable. Imagine how much easier it would be to obtain flying sites if you could show a landowner of a potential site that he is automatically covered by your personal insurance............
I actually acted on that notion, or tried to. AMA won't sell site owner insurance to individuals, only clubs. I contacted SFA (yeah, this happened a while back) and they said they would. Still a separate policy I'd have to pay for and the landowner would have to be named, but not a flat out NO. That plan vaporized when SFA was killed off. Considered chartering a 'club' of my family (incl. dogs) with AMA, but that became OBE when I acquired some property large enough to accommodate at least some of my model flying interest.
As of now the idea is dead, or at least latent until I downsize. Seems like AMA's phalanx of lawyers could/should address whether there is an actual need for naming the site owner on an insurance policy. It could be a big help in finding replacements for the dwindling numbers of available flying sites our hobby is so dependent on.
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Old Feb 11, 2012, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by abel pranger View Post
If I had my druthers, I would have a liability insurance policy covering my modeling activity that also indemnifies the owner of the land I'm using for a flying site at the instant - as an unnamed 'also insured,' unnamed to make the coverage portable. Imagine how much easier it would be to obtain flying sites if you could show a landowner of a potential site that he is automatically covered by your personal insurance............
I actually acted on that notion, or tried to. AMA won't sell site owner insurance to individuals, only clubs. I contacted SFA (yeah, this happened a while back) and they said they would. Still a separate policy I'd have to pay for and the landowner would have to be named, but not a flat out NO. That plan vaporized when SFA was killed off. Considered chartering a 'club' of my family (incl. dogs) with AMA, but that became OBE when I acquired some property large enough to accommodate at least some of my model flying interest.
As of now the idea is dead, or at least latent until I downsize. Seems like AMA's phalanx of lawyers could/should address whether there is an actual need for naming the site owner on an insurance policy. It could be a big help in finding replacements for the dwindling numbers of available flying sites our hobby is so dependent on.
So, under your plan, from the land owner's perspective, I can:
A - "It's April, show me your current year AMA Site Owner certificate, or,
B - "Mmmmm, it's April, so according to my database, John, Sam and George's personal liability policies expire this month.", "Hi, John, it's the land owner, you need to come by and provide me a copy of your current year insurance policy", "Hi Sam, it's.........

If I had my druthers as a land owner, option A every time!
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Old Feb 11, 2012, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by S3NFO View Post
So, under your plan, from the land owner's perspective, I can:
A - "It's April, show me your current year AMA Site Owner certificate, or,
B - "Mmmmm, it's April, so according to my database, John, Sam and George's personal liability policies expire this month.", "Hi, John, it's the land owner, you need to come by and provide me a copy of your current year insurance policy", "Hi Sam, it's.........

If I had my druthers as a land owner, option A every time!
C- Move to Texas and quit worrying about it
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Old Feb 11, 2012, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by littlecrankshaft View Post
C- Move to Texas and quit worrying about it
Man, I'm about ready to. Cold up here in Indiana.
Any good carpentry jobs around there?
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