HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Oct 09, 2012, 04:16 PM
Radio? Screwdriver!
United Kingdom, England, Bristol
Joined Aug 2011
991 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by grimbeaver View Post
Not sure if this is a dumb question or not...

If you connect the PPM out on the 5-channel rx to the SIM are you limited to 5 channels? Or are all 9 in the PPM stream just the rx can only split out 5 into servos? Basically if I want to SIM do I need the 8 channel or would the 5 channel be sufficient?
There is no such thing as a silly question. The PPM lines outputs all 9 channels (I'm not that mean to limit it ). The number of servo channels is limited by the number of connectors on the PCB - but the actual number of received channels never changes. Hence I just output them into the PPM signal anyway.

If you put the receiver into PPM mode, on the 5ch receiver it changes connections 3/4/5 to channels 7/8/9 - while the 8 channel receiver changes connections 5/6/7/8 to 6/7/8/9 (iirc - check the manual). The idea being that if you connect the PPM line to a flight controller (like a flybarless, FPV return home, etc), you can then use the extra, now spare channels on the receiver to drive stuff like LEDs, actuator servos, etc.

Cheers,
Si.
SimonChambers is offline Find More Posts by SimonChambers
RCG Plus Member
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Oct 12, 2012, 06:25 PM
...just an earth bound misfit
Dirt-Torpedo's Avatar
Joined Mar 2010
660 Posts
HK-Minima 8 seems like a fine product in PPM mode. Working great on Phoenix and a preliminary hookup on the Skookum SK540 seemed to just work...
Dirt-Torpedo is offline Find More Posts by Dirt-Torpedo
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 14, 2012, 12:15 PM
Registered User
The Netherlands
Joined Jul 2007
99 Posts
Maybe you could share some knowledge with these guys, who are writing custom software to support multiple rx's:
http://deviationtx.com/
BasTijs is offline Find More Posts by BasTijs
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 15, 2012, 10:39 AM
Registered User
United States, MN
Joined Feb 2011
4,378 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirt-Torpedo View Post
HK-Minima 8 seems like a fine product in PPM mode. Working great on Phoenix and a preliminary hookup on the Skookum SK540 seemed to just work...
I've got the micro 5 channel on order, I might actually try and embed it inside the RF Interlink. Good to know it works on the SK540. Now if we could get a PPM rx with battery telemetry I would switch back to using my A9 for heli.
grimbeaver is offline Find More Posts by grimbeaver
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29, 2012, 04:20 PM
Registered User
Austria
Joined Jan 2004
8,069 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RENATOA View Post
Your first link above is broken.
Frsky receivers runs Simon's code.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonChambers View Post
That's the problem. The receive only receivers (i.e. non-telemetry) don't require FCC certification for the RF side. However the telemetry receivers have a transmit section in them too. Hence require certification.
...

Si.
There interesting reading

So ... Simon proven that there is quite some interest on having small RX with PPM out ... why the FrSky has not already this option on the VD5M RX ... like it has on the D4R-II ?

Anyhow ... Simon, can you tell us how you can flash these RX ? Is via a serial interface, or you need something more complicated ?

Thanks

e_lm_70
e_lm_70 is offline Find More Posts by e_lm_70
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29, 2012, 05:48 PM
Radio? Screwdriver!
United Kingdom, England, Bristol
Joined Aug 2011
991 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_lm_70 View Post
There interesting reading

So ... Simon proven that there is quite some interest on having small RX with PPM out ... why the FrSky has not already this option on the VD5M RX ... like it has on the D4R-II ?

Anyhow ... Simon, can you tell us how you can flash these RX ? Is via a serial interface, or you need something more complicated ?

Thanks

e_lm_70
The VD5M uses a TI CC2510, which is a CC2500 with a integrated 8051 (yuk) core. It does run pretty quick though and is more than powerful enough for a receiver. Also the unit cost of the IC isn't that much more than a CC2500 on its own. However it's a shame TI hasn't upgraded it to use something like the MSP430 core, after they bought out ChipCon (the original start-up company who produced the CCxxxx series).

To program the CC2510, you use a CC Debugger for the proprietary debug/programming interface. The CC2510 dev kit is pretty reasonably priced and includes the CC Debugger as well if you want to start developing - plus it can be used as a CC2500 RF sniffer, which is helpful for watching the radio datastream come in (once you know the RF parameters). The main tool for developing on the CCxxxx range is IAR studio - which is pretty damn expensive (~2-3k for a full unrestricted code size licence, less for limits). I think you can get a free 16kb "kickstart" edition though. However its a good compiler (as you expect for the money).

Of course there maybe other options if your a sadist and enjoy the pain of Assembler.

In regards to this projects firmware, I originally intended in open sourcing it. However the company who I'm partnered with, understandably, wishes me to keep it closed source - as there is the large risk of cheap copies of substandard quality being made. Also I won't be licencing it out to any other companies, as there isn't any other companies out there that can offer it at the price it is - while producing it at a high quality.

Cheers,
Si.
SimonChambers is offline Find More Posts by SimonChambers
RCG Plus Member
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29, 2012, 05:57 PM
Registered User
Austria
Joined Jan 2004
8,069 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonChambers View Post
The VD5M uses a TI CC2510, which is a CC2500 with a integrated 8051 (yuk) core. It does run pretty quick though and is more than powerful enough for a receiver. Also the unit cost of the IC isn't that much more than a CC2500 on its own. However it's a shame TI hasn't upgraded it to use something like the MSP430 core, after they bought out ChipCon (the original start-up company who produced the CCxxxx series).

To program the CC2510, you use a CC Debugger for the proprietary debug/programming interface. The CC2510 dev kit is pretty reasonably priced and includes the CC Debugger as well if you want to start developing - plus it can be used as a CC2500 RF sniffer, which is helpful for watching the radio datastream come in (once you know the RF parameters). The main tool for developing on the CCxxxx range is IAR studio - which is pretty damn expensive (~2-3k for a full unrestricted code size licence, less for limits). I think you can get a free 16kb "kickstart" edition though. However its a good compiler (as you expect for the money).

Of course there maybe other options if your a sadist and enjoy the pain of Assembler.

In regards to this projects firmware, I originally intended in open sourcing it. However the company who I'm partnered with, understandably, wishes me to keep it closed source - as there is the large risk of cheap copies of substandard quality being made. Also I won't be licencing it out to any other companies, as there isn't any other companies out there that can offer it at the price it is - while producing it at a high quality.

Cheers,
Si.
Assembler is good

Interesting, other chip producer offer development software IDE for free
8051 free compiler are also available if I recall right

Still, you did not tell me how this RX can be flash ... must be over the available molex plug, guess over a serial interface, using some sort of hard ware boot loader ...
e_lm_70 is offline Find More Posts by e_lm_70
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29, 2012, 06:24 PM
Radio? Screwdriver!
United Kingdom, England, Bristol
Joined Aug 2011
991 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_lm_70 View Post
Assembler is good

Interesting, other chip producer offer development software IDE for free
8051 free compiler are also available if I recall right

Still, you did not tell me how this RX can be flash ... must be over the available molex plug, guess over a serial interface, using some sort of hard ware boot loader ...
Assembler == evil! Especially if you have been given a project from a former employee that you have to maintain! (Maybe this is one of the reasons why I hate it so much? )

You can easily write messy code in C and Assembler. At least with C, if it's been written badly, you can generally get the gist of how it works. It's always contentious however my experience is that well written C through a decent compiler is as fast as really well written Assembler - despite what many old boys say.

In a previous employment, using the TI DSP compilers, we actually found that their C functional equivalent of their hand optimised assembler code libraries would compile to quicker, tighter code! Plus once you get into complex applications, you can use RTOS, graphical OO libraries, TCP/IP stacks, etc to speed up development and make things that wouldn't be practically possible otherwise.

Anyway I'll get off my soapbox, the Assembler vs C debate is done death as much as DSM2 vs the world is.

There are other compilers, such as SDCC and others - however I already have a full legit IAR 8051 licence for my full time occupation using the CC2540 (Bluetooth Low Energy IC). This requires IAR for the Bluetooth Stack libraries and so I am very familiar with it anyway. Also the IAR compiler is pretty good, stable and efficient. To be honest, if your designing your own receiver from scratch as a hobbyist, it's probably likely that you'd use another microcontroller (Atmel always seems to be the flavour) and interface to a CC2500 over SPI. If your working for a company and final product cost/size is important, dropping a couple of k on a compiler isn't a very big deal.

IAR do a kickstart version, but that has a paltry 4k code size limit. I don't quite know what they expect you to develop with only 4k!

The program/debug interface is found on a bunch of header pins on the PCB. It's the header that have the orange wire connecting to them in this picture:


It's a proprietary protocol, that is based on some sort of 2 pin serial bus (clock and data) - I imagine it operates in a similar way to how the Microchip program/debug clock and data pins work. I can't remember the pin out from the top of my head, however if you're interested and want it, I can have a flick through my log book.

Cheers,
Si.
SimonChambers is offline Find More Posts by SimonChambers
RCG Plus Member
Last edited by SimonChambers; Oct 29, 2012 at 06:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29, 2012, 07:36 PM
Registered User
Austria
Joined Jan 2004
8,069 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonChambers View Post
Assembler == evil! Especially if you have been given a project from a former employee that you have to maintain! (Maybe this is one of the reasons why I hate it so much? )

You can easily write messy code in C and Assembler. At least with C, if it's been written badly, you can generally get the gist of how it works. It's always contentious however my experience is that well written C through a decent compiler is as fast as really well written Assembler - despite what many old boys say.

In a previous employment, using the TI DSP compilers, we actually found that their C functional equivalent of their hand optimised assembler code libraries would compile to quicker, tighter code! Plus once you get into complex applications, you can use RTOS, graphical OO libraries, TCP/IP stacks, etc to speed up development and make things that wouldn't be practically possible otherwise.

Anyway I'll get off my soapbox, the Assembler vs C debate is done death as much as DSM2 vs the world is.

There are other compilers, such as SDCC and others - however I already have a full legit IAR 8051 licence for my full time occupation using the CC2540 (Bluetooth Low Energy IC). This requires IAR for the Bluetooth Stack libraries and so I am very familiar with it anyway. Also the IAR compiler is pretty good, stable and efficient. To be honest, if your designing your own receiver from scratch as a hobbyist, it's probably likely that you'd use another microcontroller (Atmel always seems to be the flavour) and interface to a CC2500 over SPI. If your working for a company and final product cost/size is important, dropping a couple of k on a compiler isn't a very big deal.

IAR do a kickstart version, but that has a paltry 4k code size limit. I don't quite know what they expect you to develop with only 4k!

The program/debug interface is found on a bunch of header pins on the PCB. It's the header that have the orange wire connecting to them in this picture:


It's a proprietary protocol, that is based on some sort of 2 pin serial bus (clock and data) - I imagine it operates in a similar way to how the Microchip program/debug clock and data pins work. I can't remember the pin out from the top of my head, however if you're interested and want it, I can have a flick through my log book.

Cheers,
Si.
Thanks

I just did want to get an idea how complex is to reflash this chip ...

So, unless FrSky have not put a custom bootloader, then using debug spi + reset ( 3 wire) would need a dedicate hw module for handle the update

So I guess CPPM from this RX sound unrealistic

Interesting to see that this chip was designed for Bluetooth application ... that's why renatoa was always against using Bluetooth and FrSky tx/rx on the same time

e_lm_70 is offline Find More Posts by e_lm_70
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29, 2012, 07:53 PM
Radio? Screwdriver!
United Kingdom, England, Bristol
Joined Aug 2011
991 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_lm_70 View Post
Thanks

I just did want to get an idea how complex is to reflash this chip ...

So, unless FrSky have not put a custom bootloader, then using debug spi + reset ( 3 wire) would need a dedicate hw module for handle the update

So I guess CPPM from this RX sound unrealistic

Interesting to see that this chip was designed for Bluetooth application ... that's why renatoa was always against using Bluetooth and FrSky tx/rx on the same time

Nononono, sorry I confused you. CC2540 != CC2500 compatible. The CC25xx part means its a Chipcon 2.4GHz IC (2nd generation). CC24xx was 1st generation chipcon 2.4GHz.

Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) has different RF requirements than how the CC2500 can operate.

The CC2540 is BLE, CC2530 is Zigbee, CC2500 is proprietary, CC2541 is Bluetooth Low Energy + basic proprietary, CC2542 is basic proprietary, CC2591 is a RF Front end amplifier, etc - the confusing numbers continue.

No bootloader as they're not designed to be field updatable. CPPM is possible and realistic, just a fair amount of work (code rewrite).

Cheers,
Si.
SimonChambers is offline Find More Posts by SimonChambers
RCG Plus Member
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29, 2012, 08:04 PM
Registered User
Austria
Joined Jan 2004
8,069 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonChambers View Post
Nononono, sorry I confused you. CC2540 != CC2500 compatible. The CC25xx part means its a Chipcon 2.4GHz IC (2nd generation). CC24xx was 1st generation chipcon 2.4GHz.

Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) has different RF requirements than how the CC2500 can operate.

The CC2540 is BLE, CC2530 is Zigbee, CC2500 is proprietary, CC2541 is Bluetooth Low Energy + basic proprietary, CC2542 is basic proprietary, CC2591 is a RF Front end amplifier, etc - the confusing numbers continue.

No bootloader as they're not designed to be field updatable. CPPM is possible and realistic, just a fair amount of work (code rewrite).

Cheers,
Si.

My bad ... I did assume Bluetooth reading this

Quote:

Wireless keyboard and mouse Wireless voice-quality audio
Why cppm should be complicated to be coded
To read cppm 8 channels is more simple then read 2 channels independently

e_lm_70 is offline Find More Posts by e_lm_70
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29, 2012, 08:11 PM
Radio? Screwdriver!
United Kingdom, England, Bristol
Joined Aug 2011
991 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_lm_70 View Post
My bad ... I did assume Bluetooth reading this
Ah, by that I think they mean proprietary wireless Keyboard/Mouse to USB dongle - rather than Bluetooth. E.g. CC2510 for the keyboard/Mouse and CC2511 (a CC2510 with USB) for the USB dongle. I actually think my wireless Microsoft Keyboard/Mouse set I'm using here actually uses the CC2500 series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by e_lm_70 View Post
Why cppm should be complicated to be coded
To read cppm 8 channels is more simple then read 2 channels independently

Sorry, I really don't mean to be rude, but I don't understand what your saying here?

Si.
SimonChambers is offline Find More Posts by SimonChambers
RCG Plus Member
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29, 2012, 10:58 PM
The Sequel
mustflynow2's Avatar
Australia, VIC
Joined Sep 2011
1,356 Posts
Subscribed, now some more reading to do, thanks for your feed back on hk site. Brendan
mustflynow2 is online now Find More Posts by mustflynow2
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 30, 2012, 05:43 AM
Registered User
Austria
Joined Jan 2004
8,069 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonChambers View Post
Nononono, sorry I confused you. CC2540 != CC2500 compatible. The CC25xx part means its a Chipcon 2.4GHz IC (2nd generation). CC24xx was 1st generation chipcon 2.4GHz.

Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) has different RF requirements than how the CC2500 can operate.

The CC2540 is BLE, CC2530 is Zigbee, CC2500 is proprietary, CC2541 is Bluetooth Low Energy + basic proprietary, CC2542 is basic proprietary, CC2591 is a RF Front end amplifier, etc - the confusing numbers continue.

No bootloader as they're not designed to be field updatable. CPPM is possible and realistic, just a fair amount of work (code rewrite).


Cheers,
Si.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonChambers View Post
Ah, by that I think they mean proprietary wireless Keyboard/Mouse to USB dongle - rather than Bluetooth. E.g. CC2510 for the keyboard/Mouse and CC2511 (a CC2510 with USB) for the USB dongle. I actually think my wireless Microsoft Keyboard/Mouse set I'm using here actually uses the CC2500 series.


Sorry, I really don't mean to be rude, but I don't understand what your saying here?

Si.
I was writing on a tablet, so sometime trying to write "in compact form" I may miss to clarify some points.

Anyhow ... just highlighted here from your messages ... I was just surprise that you state that CPPM is something "fair amount of work" ... that it is strange ... since my experience is that CPPM is more easy then having to deal with multiple signal, one for each channel ...

That's it.

Actually I was hoping that Renatoa could step in ... and promise some new FrSky VD5M with CPPM ... like they did already for other RX of FrSky

Tchuss

e_lm_70

ps: On the pict you posted ... some cables must be missing ... I just see 2 line for power, and 1 line from the 5 "side tabs" ... guess these 5 tabs, are just +vcc, Gnd, "SDA" / "SDC" , Reset .... making these 5 tabs ideally for "flash" the board inside FrSky product line
e_lm_70 is offline Find More Posts by e_lm_70
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 30, 2012, 05:51 AM
Registered User
Romania, Dolj, Craiova
Joined Sep 2007
15,441 Posts
You don't see the picture right
How can I promise anything, when this is Simon project 100%? Frsky is just the... "organ donor", Simon is the main artist.

Also, D4FR suits my needs perfectly, it features serial line, telemetry and normal firmware upload, normal servo connectors, why should I want these things in VD5M form? For 1 gram less? Not convincing enough.
For Hitec users yes, but I knew in right time what side to be
renatoa is offline Find More Posts by renatoa
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question Hitec 2.4GHz compatible receivers G_Wright Radios 1 May 09, 2011 07:02 PM
Sold OrangeRX Orange RX Spektrum 2.4GHz DSM2/X compatible receiver lrplin Aircraft - General - Radio Equipment (FS/W) 2 Apr 18, 2011 01:07 PM
Discussion OrangeRx Futaba FASST Compatible 8Ch 2.4Ghz Receiver WSWitby Electric Plane Talk 2 Apr 05, 2011 08:30 AM
Sold OrangeRX Orange RX Spektrum 2.4GHz DSM2/X compatible receiver lrplin Aircraft - General - Radio Equipment (FS/W) 5 Mar 30, 2011 06:35 PM
Sold OrangeRX Orange RX Spektrum 2.4GHz DSM2/X compatible receiver lrplin Aircraft - General - Radio Equipment (FS/W) 0 Mar 28, 2011 04:38 PM