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Old Nov 02, 2012, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by hawkeye70 View Post
Thanks for all the help guys!!

I guess now I see why so many people say other forums are superior
Ok no need to go there

If you refer to the first few posts where the diagrams are posted, if you spend 5 mins understanding them, the whole world of switching options will be open to you, whatever configuration you want to build.
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 04:31 AM
Steven
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United States, CT, East Hartford
Joined May 2010
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Originally Posted by hawkeye70 View Post
Thanks for all the help guys!!

I guess now I see why so many people say other forums are superior
If your ambition exceeds your knowledge then you've come to the right place.

Once pin 4 is grounded, fan speed will be automatically adjusted based on load and ambient temperature.

Just connect to one of the main +12DC connectors to power your external fan.

Power the PSU just like you said: "just + from the female plug to the switch down to the ps and same with - then ground direct from female plug to ps"
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 07:24 AM
ancora imparo
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Melbourne, Australia
Joined Jul 2005
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I think in English this is called a "self justifying rationalisation".

Unfortunately it isn't true. I'm not arguing that the DPS-600 isn't a great supply, I have two but let's not let the facts get overlooked by strong opinions.

I went and measured my 47A DPS600-PD's and my 106A DL580's just to see what the real story is. These are two very popular supplies and have extensive threads on each.

Four HP DPS-600PB 47Amp
285 x 156 x110 mm =4.89L
48V at 47 Amps = 2,256 Watts
Weight 6.32kg

Three HP DL580 106Amp
190 x 210 x 125 mm = 4.99L
36V at 106 Amps = 3,816 Watts
Weight 6.72kg

Both solutions are almost the same volume and weight. The form factors are different with the DL580 version shorter and fatter and a few 100g heavier.

The new iCharger is 1400 Watts/port but has a 2000 Watt total limit
Input current limit is 65A and max input voltage is 50V
So assuming 90% efficiency (it's probably better).
Maximum Input power is 2000/0.9 = 2220 Watts say (it could well be less)

At 36V 2220 Watts is 62 Amps
At 48V 2220 Watts is 46 Amps

Conclusion:

Either solution will power this charger to its maximum capacity. However the 4x DPS-600 solution is at its limit, the 3x DL580 solution is only running at about 60% of its capacity. In practice you could probably run TWO of the new iChargers off it if you could supply the mains input power!

This is all assuming your mains can supply 2220 Watts from a single outlet. That's a different issue and depends on particular countries etc and is discussed endlessly elsewhere.

The big advantage the DPS-600 has is its simple fan speed control and therefore it will be quieter when under light load.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rchelijc View Post
It's been a long while since post 1, 2 and 3. Now with the new icharger coming out, I'm glad that I built mine with these PSU's.

I will reconfigure my 4 PSU's for 48V, which should take 5 mins.

That's the great advantage of these PSU's... small and light.

Many who have combined those massive 1200W 12V beasts for 2400W 24V, will need to purchase another 2 more, to produce a combined power of 4800W at 48V, but the weight of this would be prohibitive.

Of course if the new icharger is not your thing, then it doesn't matter
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 09:13 AM
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rchelijc's Avatar
Melbourne, Australia
Joined Aug 2010
762 Posts
If that's the case, the DL580 looks like a better solution!!

I was initially under the impression the icharger could not reach full power unless with 48V input.

Actually looking at the specs on ProgRC, you can charge at 40A (1400W max) per channel simultaneously, but I'm not sure if you can actually push 2800W out, if running independently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jj604 View Post
I think in English this is called a "self justifying rationalisation".

Unfortunately it isn't true. I'm not arguing that the DPS-600 isn't a great supply, I have two but let's not let the facts get overlooked by strong opinions.

I went and measured my 47A DPS600-PD's and my 106A DL580's just to see what the real story is. These are two very popular supplies and have extensive threads on each.

Four HP DPS-600PB 47Amp
285 x 156 x110 mm =4.89L
48V at 47 Amps = 2,256 Watts
Weight 6.32kg

Three HP DL580 106Amp
190 x 210 x 125 mm = 4.99L
36V at 106 Amps = 3,816 Watts
Weight 6.72kg

Both solutions are almost the same volume and weight. The form factors are different with the DL580 version shorter and fatter and a few 100g heavier.

The new iCharger is 1400 Watts/port but has a 2000 Watt total limit
Input current limit is 65A and max input voltage is 50V
So assuming 90% efficiency (it's probably better).
Maximum Input power is 2000/0.9 = 2220 Watts say (it could well be less)

At 36V 2220 Watts is 62 Amps
At 48V 2220 Watts is 46 Amps

Conclusion:

Either solution will power this charger to its maximum capacity. However the 4x DPS-600 solution is at its limit, the 3x DL580 solution is only running at about 60% of its capacity. In practice you could probably run TWO of the new iChargers off it if you could supply the mains input power!

This is all assuming your mains can supply 2220 Watts from a single outlet. That's a different issue and depends on particular countries etc and is discussed endlessly elsewhere.

The big advantage the DPS-600 has is its simple fan speed control and therefore it will be quieter when under light load.
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 02:15 PM
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Canada, BC, Vancouver
Joined Apr 2012
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My appologies and Thanks to Xandrios!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xandrios View Post
If your ambition exceeds my knowledge then you've come to the right place.

Once pin 4 is grounded, fan speed will be automatically adjusted based on load and ambient temperature.

Just connect to one of the main +12DC connectors to power your external fan.

Power the PSU just like you said: "just + from the female plug to the switch down to the ps and same with - then ground direct from female plug to ps"
Thanks a lot Xandrios , I can fix and tinker with a lot of different things but electrical has always been a weakness, I just didn't want to short something from the get go. For the fan I found when it was shorted even at only ten amp load on one PS it started to get kind of warm so I prefer the switch idea, simply when charging flip on when in standby, silence , I did figure out how to wire than one. As for my last post, I offer my humble appologies to everyone who call rcgroups home , I guess I just got a little frustrated and couldn't see why with all this great info and technical knowledge why someone hadn't responded (I've had my parts for a while, just waiting to go together). And finally to the thread starter I just want to appologize for tarnishing your thread, this is really an amazing thread and without it I probably wouldn't even be trying this project. So thank you to all contributors
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 04:45 PM
ancora imparo
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Melbourne, Australia
Joined Jul 2005
6,312 Posts
I agree both would work fine.

Since I have a twin DPS-600 and a twin DL580 it's a dilemma as to whether to add two more to the DPS-600 or one more to the DL580 system.

A quad DPS-600 is really attractive and perfectly suited as it can provide just the max power required and it is nicer because it is quieter. A triple DL580 has headroom for an even bigger charger or to operate two of them.

On the new iCharger thread someone posted the specs that said it had 1400 Watt / channel but that total power (both channels operating) was limited to 2000 Watts. The point I wanted to make is that you need to do the numbers before you come to a conclusion about capacity. I bet "Our charger can accept 50V input" will become the new marketing ploy when in fact it is the power capability of the charger that matters. A charger that delivers 2000 Watts on 36V input is in some ways more attractive than one that needs 48V to do the same - particularly if you use deep cycle batteries at the field.

In any case for many people this is more than they will ever need. Heli guys charging large capacity packs and needing fast turn around at the field seem to be the drivers for monster chargers. I can see a future where a 4000kVA generator and two twin 2000 Watt chargers may be the norm! At home I use a PL8 and parallel charge and for me I never get above a total of about 1000Watts. My Hyperion Super Duo only gets used for the odd different voltage packs needing charged at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rchelijc View Post
If that's the case, the DL580 looks like a better solution!!

I was initially under the impression the icharger could not reach full power unless with 48V input.

Actually looking at the specs on ProgRC, you can charge at 40A (1400W max) per channel simultaneously, but I'm not sure if you can actually push 2800W out, if running independently.
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Old Nov 02, 2012, 09:31 PM
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rchelijc's Avatar
Melbourne, Australia
Joined Aug 2010
762 Posts
Your statement "The point I wanted to make is that you need to do the numbers before you come to a conclusion about capacity" is absolutely valid, and really my comment was just my opinion for my own purposes only Let me explain...

I fly 6S packs max (2x6S for 90's) - Output required is 40A*2channels*4.2max*6 is around 2000W, or 2200W input (90%eff).

My original purpose: build a 24V supply for 2xPL8 (2000W charging needs), and future proof for 48V-input capable chargers.

DPS-600PB - 550W apparently, but more importantly, 47A limit as 12V.

In reality, my 12V rail sits at 12.5V resting, and maintains it, all four of them. I can safely pull 50A without much issue, but going over 50 seems to trip OCP.

In any case, 12.5V*4units*50A is close to 2400W. My PSU is likely to trip before I burn my household wiring down. With 3xDL580 at 3600W, a lack of calculation and care (if you have several buddies over all charging at once) is a danger. You would always have to keep tabs - I don't.

Since I have a twin DPS-600 and a twin DL580 it's a dilemma as to whether to add two more to the DPS-600 or one more to the DL580 system.

That's your dilemma Not mine - mine was built for 2xPL8's in mind. I can easily reconfigure for 48V 2000W without buying new hardware. You need to.

Plus, at 48V reconfigured, I can still run 2xPL8 (one at 0-24, the other at 24-48) - safe enough unless you wear dangling metal things.

What happens if I want to run more that 2400W, say 3000W+ that at the field?

Well, I cannot depend on the field having a 4000kva generator, and I cannot imagine being the ONLY person using it. For that purpose, I have built this beast:



At around 10kgs, it is light for a rig that provides 3000W at 24V at around 120A safely, with capacity equivalent to one 100Ah deep cycle. Again, I have made it easily plug and play for 48V at 120A for close to 6kW power, with equivalent capacity to a 200Ah deep cycle, at around 18kg in weight.

And I prefer to run my dirt cheap PSU at 90% capacity, to relieve the input current for the EXPENSIVE icharger, than the reverse. I'm not sure how much your DL580's cost, but the DPS-600PB is dirt cheap, and I have many spares around, so I don't need to baby the PSU.

"I think in English this is called a "self justifying rationalisation" " - I don't agree, and I stand by what I said. I planned for future chargers where input current was limited, and 48V was required to max out the chargers. The icharger is not a good example of this, but it's only the first, and more players may come in with awesome chargers but limited to 50V input and 45A input current.

If that happens, you won't be able to get away with 3xDL580's - you'll need 4.

So in response to your statement (in a rather long winded way ), a 4xDPS-600PB build in my opinion is still the best solution for compatibility with 2400W household supply, 24V 2400W output, and easily reconfigurable 48V 2400W output, taking all of the above and your comments into consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jj604 View Post
I agree both would work fine.

Since I have a twin DPS-600 and a twin DL580 it's a dilemma as to whether to add two more to the DPS-600 or one more to the DL580 system.

A quad DPS-600 is really attractive and perfectly suited as it can provide just the max power required and it is nicer because it is quieter. A triple DL580 has headroom for an even bigger charger or to operate two of them.

On the new iCharger thread someone posted the specs that said it had 1400 Watt / channel but that total power (both channels operating) was limited to 2000 Watts. The point I wanted to make is that you need to do the numbers before you come to a conclusion about capacity. I bet "Our charger can accept 50V input" will become the new marketing ploy when in fact it is the power capability of the charger that matters. A charger that delivers 2000 Watts on 36V input is in some ways more attractive than one that needs 48V to do the same - particularly if you use deep cycle batteries at the field.

In any case for many people this is more than they will ever need. Heli guys charging large capacity packs and needing fast turn around at the field seem to be the drivers for monster chargers. I can see a future where a 4000kVA generator and two twin 2000 Watt chargers may be the norm! At home I use a PL8 and parallel charge and for me I never get above a total of about 1000Watts. My Hyperion Super Duo only gets used for the odd different voltage packs needing charged at the same time.
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 07:53 AM
Steven
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United States, CT, East Hartford
Joined May 2010
504 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rchelijc View Post
And I prefer to run my dirt cheap PSU at 90% capacity, to relieve the input current for the EXPENSIVE icharger, than the reverse. I'm not sure how much your DL580's cost, but the DPS-600PB is dirt cheap, and I have many spares around, so I don't need to baby the PSU.
The IBM 835W DPS-835AB PSU is even more flexible and dirt cheap-er.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1114

In the U.S. you can get 4 Delta DPS-835AB IBM 835w PSUs for the same price as 2 DPS-600PBs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-IBM...a74ec161e#shId

It's smaller and lighter than the DPS-600PB yet delivers 20A more current so they won't need to be driven as hard.

It uses newer technology, has a highly efficient electrical and thermal design and runs very cool for its small size.

Fan speed is automatically adjusted based on load and ambient temperature and it will run even without a fan.

Woooo !!! I gotta back off on the Coffee.
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Old Nov 03, 2012, 10:55 AM
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rchelijc's Avatar
Melbourne, Australia
Joined Aug 2010
762 Posts
Damn it xandrios... I would love to get a few of these in australia...

If anyone has some of these, please PM me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xandrios View Post
The IBM 835W DPS-835AB PSU is even more flexible and dirt cheap-er.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1114

In the U.S. you can get 4 Delta DPS-835AB IBM 835w PSUs for the same price as 2 DPS-600PBs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-IBM...a74ec161e#shId

It's smaller and lighter than the DPS-600PB yet delivers 20A more current so they won't need to be driven as hard.

It uses newer technology, has a highly efficient electrical and thermal design and runs very cool for its small size.

Fan speed is automatically adjusted based on load and ambient temperature and it will run even without a fan.

Woooo !!! I gotta back off on the Coffee.
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Old Nov 04, 2012, 10:36 AM
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Salem, Oregon
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Originally Posted by feathermerchant View Post
If you REEEEEELY want to test, it should shutdown when it gets too hot to protect itself. That's what I call thermal protection.
The servers these things go in shut themselves down in an over temp condition which unloads the power supply.
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Old Nov 04, 2012, 03:15 PM
ancora imparo
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Old Nov 07, 2012, 03:37 PM
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United States, AZ, Gilbert
Joined Jul 2010
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Originally Posted by hawkeye70 View Post
For the fan I found when it was shorted even at only ten amp load on one PS it started to get kind of warm...
Check out post 663 of this thread. HP really knew what they were doing when they designed the DPS-600PB. It may get warm, but it is made to withstand some heat. I ran it with the fan pin #4 shorted to ground at 50 amps for 2 hours straight, yes, it did get warm, but I checked the internal temperature right after running for 2 hours at FULL load and the internal components were well below their rated temperatures, mid 40s Celsius (110 Fahrenheit) which is less than HALF as hot as they can get and still be within spec and that was running them on full for 2 hours!,...again, check out post 663 for more details.

I was in the processes of engineering a temperature controlled circuit for this PSU that would speed the fan up even more than the manufacturer has it set to speed up under load/temperature increase, but once I discovered this new data on these guys I am now absolutely convinced that it is not needed. All you need to do is simply short pin 4 to ground and leave it alone, the internal thermal control already built into the DPS-600PB will take care of the rest. Yes it will get warm, but it was about half the rated temperature, so it could get much much hotter before you need to be concerned. This PSU is very smart...

Jeremy
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Old Nov 07, 2012, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xandrios View Post
The IBM 835W DPS-835AB PSU is even more flexible and dirt cheap-er.

It's smaller and lighter than the DPS-600PB yet delivers 20A more current so they won't need to be driven as hard.

It uses newer technology, has a highly efficient electrical and thermal design and runs very cool for its small size.

Fan speed is automatically adjusted based on load and ambient temperature and it will run even without a fan.

Woooo !!! I gotta back off on the Coffee.
Am so impressed I bought two..... for a total of $18.49 incl. shipping
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 02:18 PM
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United States, AZ, Gilbert
Joined Jul 2010
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I was just wondering, why are all the DPS-600PBs sold on RCG advertised as 12v/24v 47amp supplies when they are really 12.5v/25v 46amp supplies? I mean, unless everyone is connecting the sense pins that Dusey52 points out below (which I am almost cetain they are not), these are really 25v when two are connected in series and 12.5 volts when separate. Also, I believe PSUs are rated in watts, not amps, so if the sense pins are left open and the voltage is 25v they are still rated at 575 watts each, 1,150 watts for the pair, which would mean anything over 46 amps is going above the manufactures rated wattage, right? I am probably just splitting hairs here though as I have personally tested these and the over current protection kicks in at about 55 amps while they are at 25 volts and they seem to be able to handle 50+ amps at 25 volts continuously without issue. I am going to be making some of these and selling them so I just want to make sure I get the ratings right. I will probably just go with 24 volts and 47 amps like everyone else to avoid confusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusey52 View Post
There's a lot of great information on the preceding pages but the 'unknown' pins always bugged me so here's an update to what the various pins do, enjoy.


PIN .......... Ribbon Wire ....... Description
. 1 ............ N/A ...................... +5VSB
. 2 ............ N/A ...................... +5VSB
. 3 ............ N/A ...................... +5VSB
. 4 ............ 3 .......................... Fan speed, ground for minimum speed. (For variable speed use ~4.6v to Vcc.)
. 5 ............ N/A ...................... -12V
. 6 ............ 5 .......................... PsKill, ground this and PsOn to turn on the PS.
. 7 ............ 6 .......................... +S (positive sense)
. 8 ............ N/A ...................... DC ground
. 9 ............ 8 .......................... -S (negative sense)
10 ............ 4 .......................... PsOn, ground this and PsKill to turn on the PS.
11 ............ 9 .......................... Current Share
12 ............ 7 .......................... Power OK/Fault (OK = 3.8V, Fault = 0V).
N/A .......... 1 .......................... Ground from the output board back to the main board (needs to be tied to DC ground).
N/A .......... 2 .......................... Ground from the output board back to the main board (needs to be tied to DC ground).
N/A ........ 10 .......................... Ground from the output board back to the main board (not needed).

OK, so what's the deal with pins 7 & 9, pin 9 is voltage adjust, right? Well, yes and no. High end power supplies regulate voltage at the load (as opposed to at the PS). They accomplish this by monitoring the voltage at the load using two small sense wires (+S & -S). The voltage at the load is feed back to the voltage regulator so the regulator can compensate for any line loss caused by large currents flowing through the primary output wires. If the sense pins are connected as originally intended, +S to the positive output line and -S to the negative output line, the PS will run at its rated output of 12.15V at the point where +S & -S are connected. If they're left open, you'll get about 12.5V. Now since these 'sense' pins give us access to the voltage regulator circuit, we have direct control over the regulator (within limits). To raise the output voltage you pull -S up or pull +S down (or both) using an appropriate resistor. A simple way to accomplish this is to connect a resistor between +S & -S. They're actually already tied together via a resistor internally, we're just adding a parallel resistor to lower the value.

Here's a few examples of connecting +S to -S via a resistor and the resulting output voltage:

1.8K ......... 13.8V
2.1K ......... 13.6V
2.3K ......... 13.5V
2.7K ......... 13.35V
3.3K ......... 13.2V
3.9K ......... 13.1V
4.7K ......... 13.0V
10K .......... 12.7V

Note: The closer to OVP (~13.8V) you get, the more likely you are to have issues with the PS shutting down unexpectedly and/or not being able to deliver full current.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 06:56 PM
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Jo, beats me. All PSU's I've laid my hands on output 12.5V when shorting all the turn on pins.

I'm pretty sure there's more than just watt controls. It's a combination of both over volt, over amp, and another factor here that I didn't bother looking for, for my rc needs
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