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Old Apr 14, 2012, 01:52 PM
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According to Gerd Giese his test, their new 60C packs are real 45C packs.
A rhetorical question - why doesn't he sell them as 45C and not 60C if that is the case?
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy from Sandy View Post
A rhetorical question - why doesn't he sell them as 45C and not 60C if that is the case?
Andy,

That is a misunderstanding, I think. Gerde Geise is the chap who tests and publishes results - he is not the maker or seller of lipos. The quote in shortened form is ambiguous.

Wayne
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 02:24 PM
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Sorry, a total mistake. Apologies to Gerde Geise.

So is it a case that Gens Ace have gone the way of other companies and started to get misleading with claimed C ratings?
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 02:34 PM
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>> Real 60C packs
a friendly reminder from the reality department: "Real" 60 C puts your flight times in the one-minute range (one hour divided by 60) if you actually use it
My little 450 heli serves as a nice example. It's absurdly overpowered and would probably leave many people who tried to fly it with their hands shaking... To utilize a 60 C current, I'd have to replace the current 525 W motor with one that can handle 1300+ W. Common sense check, anybody?
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy from Sandy View Post
Sorry, a total mistake. Apologies to Gerde Geise.

So is it a case that Gens Ace have gone the way of other companies and started to get misleading with claimed C ratings?
Not sure Andy, everyone who has tested seems to get the same results that the 25C packs re outstandingly good but higher ratings seem little if any improvement on them.
I did testing on the 25C and 55C and then compared IRs of 25,30,40 and 55C.
If you haven't seen it , you can see it at http://www.giantcod.co.uk/forum/view...p?f=121&t=7579

There is some off topic stuff but you can easily by pass it.

Wayne
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy from Sandy View Post
So is it a case that Gens Ace have gone the way of other companies and started to get misleading with claimed C ratings?
It would certainly appear as such Andy.

I lamented this fact a few days ago: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=130

IMO, Gerd's 45C rating is extremely generous and I am highly doubtful that the Gens Ace 60C packs could even come close to sustaining multiple 45C discharges (80 seconds) to 100% DOD and survive, let alone hold a usable voltage under this load.

Hopefully, the days of manufacturers and vendors grossly overrating their lipolys are numbered as more consumers get fed up with their wild claims. We'll see...

Mark
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 03:32 PM
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Didn't mean to step on your toes there Wayne. It looks like we posted concurrently.

My apologies.

Mark
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 04:09 PM
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Wayne and Mark, Pure guess work that the marketing department has won out over the engineering department. lol.

There could be so many reasons for the bad performance of the 55C packs and the good performance of the 25C packs I can make many guesses. It will be interesting to see if new 25C packs in several months time perform as well as the ones being sold today.
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by gravityKills View Post
>> Real 60C packs
a friendly reminder from the reality department: "Real" 60 C puts your flight times in the one-minute range if you actually use it Common sense check, anybody?
An excellent point and one that is obviously lost on the manufacturers and those slapping ridiculously absurd ratings on their packs just to pump up sales. Far too many have bought into the C rating game and the time is ripe to put a stop to all of the nonsense.

If enough modelers speak out against these obviously shady rating practices, I'm hopeful that there will eventually be some improvement and consumers can have some confidence in where they're spending their money.

Fingers crossed...

Mark
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mrforsyth View Post
An excellent point and one that is obviously lost on the manufacturers and those slapping ridiculously absurd ratings on their packs just to pump up sales. Far too many have bought into the C rating game and the time is ripe to put a stop to all of the nonsense.

If enough modelers speak out against these obviously shady rating practices, I'm hopeful that there will eventually be some improvement and consumers can have some confidence in where they're spending their money.

Fingers crossed...

Mark
Not So Fast ... Thunder Power lists EIGHTY-TWO(82) 65C Pro Power packs ranging from their smallest 65C 1S 325mAh to their largest 65C 10S 5000mAh and 6S 7700mAh packs. http://thunderpowerrc.com/html/G6Pro...sBatteries.htm

The "engineering department" at Thunder Power gives all 82 of these packs a maximum charge rating of 12C. We would have to assume that TPs engineers are able to support the following explanation by TPs "marketing department" ...

Quote:
When your high-power EDF, 3D helicopter or other applications demands nothing but the best, G6 Pro Power 65C series batteries deliver up to 60% more power than previous generation LiPo batteries and up to an incredible 600+ cycles. Their ultra-low internal resistance (IR) also allows them to be capable of ultra-fast charge rates up to a technology-leading 12C* for charge times of 5 minutes or less.

*Max charge rate is possible when using approved charger and balancer combinations ONLY. Max charge rate is 2C when using all other combinations and 1C when charging without a balancer.
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 05:38 PM
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A link to manufacturer advertising is incredibly underwhelming and an excellent example of ridiculous ratings.

Here's one that's even more ridiculous (True 150C!!): http://maxamps.com/proddetail.php?pr...74-Pack&cat=46

Now produce a link where the 65C packs have been tested and demonstrated to sustain multiple 55 second (65C) discharges to 100% DOD while maintaining a usable voltage throughout the discharge, delivered a good portion (90+%) of rated capacity, and did not experience a damaging temperature rise.

We will wait.
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mrforsyth View Post
A link to manufacturer advertising is incredibly underwhelming and an excellent example of ridiculous ratings.

Here's one that's even more ridiculous (True 150C!!): http://maxamps.com/proddetail.php?pr...74-Pack&cat=46

Now produce a link where the 65C packs have been tested and demonstrated to sustain multiple 55 second (65C) discharges to 100% DOD while maintaining a usable voltage throughout the discharge, delivered a good portion (90+%) of rated capacity, and did not experience a damaging temperature rise.

We will wait.
So are you suggesting that the excellent engineers at TP are in cahoots by colluding and conspiring with TPs marketing gurus? If you are REALLY that concerned about TP engineers adapting their scientific calculations to satisfy your truer, honester, and more accurate figures then ... WHY don't you contact an industry leader like Thunder Power and find out exactly how they scientifically justify a 65C rating of 65C.

What good is all your effort if you never confront an industry leader like TP with your supposed actual true calculations for their explanation. You just might come away with a new appreciation for your due diligence as well as TPs.

We will wait
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 06:25 PM
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So, no data to substantiate? There's a surprise...

If you are so confident and eager to prove that TP's packs can meet the 65C claim, show the data. I am not the one asking for it. I maintain that 60C+ packs do not exist. I have searched high and low for the data and can find nothing.

As clearly stated by John at the outset, the simple tool is a 'rule-of-thumb' to help modelers get the most out of their lipoly investment, not to discredit lipoly vendors. If that happens to be a resultant outcome, then so be it and the consumer benefits.

I have no doubt that lipoly manufacturers are aware of the many threads within RCGroups and other fora that lament the ridiculousness of C ratings. If they had data that substantiated their claims, it would make sense that they would be clamoring to present said data as it would sell a LOT more lipolys. Nothing but crickets so far...

As consumers gain the tools to objectively measure and predict the performance of their lipolys, it's hoped that the current practice of dramatically overstated 'C' ratings will subside at least somewhat.

We shall see...

Mark
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 07:20 PM
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Mark one industry giant seem to agree with you...
Look at the BVM jets website, they added a section about I.R. on this page:

http://www.bvmjets.com/df_power/elec...es/Storage.htm


I think they should drop the C rating and name them by I.R.
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 10:34 PM
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In general, if "us" modelers started asking for "IR" numbers prior to purchasing batteries, it would get the manufacturers attention however...........with all the different chargers (capable of measuring IR) and other IR measuring devices I can only imagine the vartiety of statements there would be based upon the numbers generated by these different devices that do NOT all work to/on the same standard!

Before "we" start talking about taking manufactures to task about their "C claims" we might want to consider about listing equipment that we believe does an acceptable job of determining "IR" in a LiPo battery (or other batteries for that matter).

Myself, I now use a CellPro 10XP. I understand that it is good however, I have no way of knowing! This week, I will be purchasing one of the IR checkers made by Wayne Giles, based upon what I have read, I trust it. The fact that I trust it does not PROVE that it is accurate however, if it's numbers and the cellpro numbers are close (within say 10%?) then I will feel a lot better!

Flame on!

Michael (of your not fryin, your not tryin!)
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