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Old Oct 08, 2003, 03:02 AM
Flying High
Guest
n/a Posts
[RCSE] LSF 5 question... give me your verdict!

Question to all the folks out there in glider land.

I'm currently working on completing my LSF level 5 tasks
and I'm stuck around the 3 contest wins that I need.

Question... if I hold my own contest with some of my fellow
glider pilots(more than 30 pilots), and I win by them doing
me a favor of beating them... would this still count as one
of the wins I need? Do I need an official rep. or witness
from LSF board so this contest can be counted as a real
thing? Or do I need to submit the TD skill set of everyone
entered so this contest won't be frowned upon?

I'm just trying to join the ranks of the elite LSF 5
brothers....

Please, no private messages are in order... i'd like to
hear everyone's opinion on this one. Let's all get the
facts straight as this LSF status is something most of us
are shooting for.

Thanks for your time,

Edgar
"The Soaring Junkie"



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Old Oct 08, 2003, 03:02 AM
Daryl Perkins
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] LSF 5 question... give me your verdict!

Edgar Vera wrote:

<<Question... if I hold my own contest with some of my
fellow
glider pilots(more than 30 pilots), and I win by them
doing
me a favor of beating them... would this still count
as one
of the wins I need?

Edgar, let me know when you plan on holding this
"contest." I'd be more than happy to let you win....
yeah RIGHT!

<<I'm just trying to join the ranks of the elite LSF 5
brothers....

Then earn it, like the rest of the "elite" did.

Daryl - proud to be a Level 0 - Perkins


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Old Oct 08, 2003, 03:02 AM
ARROWSTEEL@aol.com
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] LSF 5 question... give me your verdict!

In a message dated 10/7/03 10:20:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
tdboy_10@yahoo.com writes:

> Question... if I hold my own contest with some of my fellow
> glider pilots(more than 30 pilots), and I win by them doing
> me a favor of beating them... would this still count as one
> of the wins I need?


Edgar,
wouldn't it be just like going to the trophy store and buying a trophy you
didn't earn?

Old Oct 08, 2003, 03:02 AM
Dan Borer
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] LSF 5 question... give me your verdict!

Edgar, are you asking for yourself or on behalf of a friend?
Did Merrill put you up to asking this question?

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Flying High" <tdboy_10@yahoo.com>
To: "exchange" <soaring@airage.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 10:19 AM
Subject: [RCSE] LSF 5 question... give me your verdict!


> Question to all the folks out there in glider land.
>
> I'm currently working on completing my LSF level 5 tasks
> and I'm stuck around the 3 contest wins that I need.
>
> Question... if I hold my own contest with some of my

fellow
> glider pilots(more than 30 pilots), and I win by them

doing
> me a favor of beating them... would this still count as

one
> of the wins I need? Do I need an official rep. or witness
> from LSF board so this contest can be counted as a real
> thing? Or do I need to submit the TD skill set of

everyone
> entered so this contest won't be frowned upon?
>
> I'm just trying to join the ranks of the elite LSF 5
> brothers....
>
> Please, no private messages are in order... i'd like to
> hear everyone's opinion on this one. Let's all get the
> facts straight as this LSF status is something most of us
> are shooting for.
>
> Thanks for your time,
>
> Edgar
> "The Soaring Junkie"
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
> RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.

Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to
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Old Oct 08, 2003, 03:02 AM
gldr guy
Guest
n/a Posts
RE: [RCSE] LSF 5 question... give me your verdict!

Wow, you were certainly tough on Edgar, I am glad he clarified things.
I dont know him that well but the little contact I have had with him
over the past couple years has been positive. From the little bit I know Edgar it was pretty obvious he was just messing with us.
To rip on his flying skills like that seems a bit rude, but thats your perogative. Keep practicing buddy and maybe some day you too, like Edgar already has, add a Visalia win to your flying resume.
Walter

---
GG

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 12:15:26
Mark Taylor (SE) wrote:
>
><Question... if I hold my own contest with some of my fellow
><glider pilots(more than 30 pilots), and I win by them doing
><me a favor of beating them... would this still count as one
><of the wins I need? Do I need an official rep. or witness
><from LSF board so this contest can be counted as a real
><thing? Or do I need to submit the TD skill set of everyone
><entered so this contest won't be frowned upon?
>
><I'm just trying to join the ranks of the elite LSF 5
><brothers.... >
>-The Soaring Junkie
>-------------------------------------
>
>I'm not even in the LSF program and this ticks me off, wonder what the guys
>that spent the time and achieved the goals think of this.
>
>I like contests because they're a great way to improve your skills, if you
>think of them as a learning opportunity. When people beat me, I analyze why.
>Was it Soaring ability, or landing skills, or luck, or equipment, or draw of
>air? or something else? I enjoy competing with Joe, Daryl, and other highly
>accomplished pilots. These are the pilots that insure that I'll have another
>"learning" opportunity. So, I don't enjoy flying with people that I
>consistently beat (not the case). So, having the other competitors let you
>win is very alien.
>
>You asked for our open opinion and here's mine:
>
>Edgar, you need to continue to get your butt kicked until you start to
>figure out why it is your getting beat and continue to hone your skills
>until you can win the constests.
>
>I feel you have good landing skills and have spent nearly all your time
>practicing landings. You need to work on thermaling skills until you are
>comfortable that you don't have to rely on sand bagging and poaching to get
>your flight times. Once you round out your skills the trophies, and LSF 5,
>will come.
>
>Mark
>RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to soaring-request@airage.com. Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
>



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Old Oct 09, 2003, 03:02 AM
Bill Conkling
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] LSF 5 question... give me your verdict!

> Question... if I hold my own contest with some of my fellow
> glider pilots(more than 30 pilots), and I win by them doing
> me a favor of beating them... would this still count as one
> of the wins I need?
>
> I'm just trying to join the ranks of the elite LSF 5
> brothers....
>

Well......

I'll respond to question two first. You don't "join" LSF. You achieve
it. It takes years of work and effort. If it was easy, it wouldnb't mean
anything.

Now, for the first question. If you think that winning a contest by
having 30 of your friends lose as a favor, is winning. Then go ahead,
take your level V cirtificate,, and please let me know so I can tear up my
Level II voucher!

Bill Conkling AMA 1944 LSF 7626
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Old Oct 09, 2003, 03:02 AM
Raschow@aol.com
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] LSF 5 question... give me your verdict!

In a message dated 10/7/03 1:20:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tdboy_10@yahoo.com writes:

<< Or do I need to submit the TD skill set of everyone
entered so this contest won't be frowned upon?

I'm just trying to join the ranks of the elite LSF 5
brothers.... >>

What you described is within the letter of the rules, but I think you miss
the point. LSF is a SELF achievement program. The worth of gaining the levels
and the pride/satisfaction you may derive therefrom is a function of what YOU
put into it. The fact your name gets put on a list is really incidental, and
mainly serves to encourage others by showing it can be done if one is willing
to put forth the time and effort required.
Good Lift! Skip Schow LSF 166, V #46
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Old Oct 09, 2003, 03:03 AM
Ken Lilja
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] LSF 5 question... give me your verdict!



Raschow@aol.com wrote:
LSF is a SELF achievement program.

LSF can't possibly be "self" achievement program since you need to
compete against others to advance (to win others must loose). I expect
to do an an 8 hour flight some day for the personal challenge. But
competition interests me very little and thus does the LSF. Now an
organization that recognizes construction, design and flying of
sailplanes would interest me a great deal.
Ken Lilja

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Old Oct 10, 2003, 03:03 AM
Don Stackhouse @ DJ Aerotech
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] LSF 5 question... give me your verdict!

Ken Lilja writes:

>Raschow@aol.com wrote:
>LSF is a SELF achievement program.
>
>LSF can't possibly be "self" achievement program since you need to
>compete against others to advance (to win others must loose). I expect
>to do an an 8 hour flight some day for the personal challenge. But
>competition interests me very little and thus does the LSF. Now an
>organization that recognizes construction, design and flying of
>sailplanes would interest me a great deal.


I personally do not enjoy competition flying myself, that's why I always
let Joe do the contest flying. That's also why I have never been interested
in even beginning with the LSF achievement program.

A few years ago I had the poor judgement to mention essentially this same
point as your post on RCSE. I got thoroughly flamed in public by quite a
few folks on the list for even suggesting such a thing. I was accused of
attempting to destroy LSF, that I had no right to make such comments since
folks used my sailplane designs in competition, etc., etc., and was
essentially threatened with the soaring equivalent of excommunication,
including by a number of the officers of LSF at that time. It was almost
like being declared "Sal for the day".

However, I received over three times as many private responses from folks
who strongly agreed with me. They didn't make their responses public for
obvious reasons.

Apparently there are a great many folks out there who feel similarly.
However, they are subjected to intense "tyranny of the majority" (although
judging from what I've seen and heard, I'm not sure that the "vocal
majority" really is truly a majority, rather than just more vocal) if they
ever have the audacity to even ask the question of whether there should be
room in the organized soaring community for something other than
competition. As a result, LSF in particular and the soaring community in
general are alienating a significant number of avid soaring fans, including
some very skilled pilots and designers.


Don Stackhouse @ DJ Aerotech
djaerotech@erinet.com
http://www.djaerotech.com

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Old Oct 10, 2003, 03:03 AM
WE Johns
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] LSF 5 question... give me your verdict!


>Ken Lilja writes:
>
>>Raschow@aol.com wrote:
>>LSF is a SELF achievement program.
>>
>>LSF can't possibly be "self" achievement program since you need to
>>compete against others to advance (to win others must loose). I expect
>>to do an an 8 hour flight some day for the personal challenge. But
>>competition interests me very little and thus does the LSF. Now an
>>organization that recognizes construction, design and flying of
>>sailplanes would interest me a great deal.


I believe there is a program broadly parallel to the LSF in Canada which
has various steps or medals of achievement which does not require that you
win at contests. I remember reading something about this some time ago and
appreciated that it was indeed a "SELF achievement program." I recall
some of the tasks were quite challenging. Perhaps someone could refresh my
memory with a web site.

Thanks,

Bill

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Old Oct 10, 2003, 03:03 AM
James Porter Jr
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] LSF 5 question... give me your verdict!

I think you're ALWAYS going to get a negative response from a large portion
of the LSF membership that are interested in the current program. It's
understandable, as many of these people have invested a lot of time and
effort into completing the program the way it's currently structured and
don't want to see their effort 'diluted'. After all, it's challenging,
requires some determination and you can learn quite a bit in the process.
And quite frankly I think the process is the most important part.

Keeping in mind that one of the original goals of the LSF program was to
encourage sailplaners to get together to learn from each other and to expand
the participation in soaring. That's not to say that competitions are the
only way to do this, but at the time it certainly seemed reasonable. There
have been lots of complaints about how hard it is to find a contest close
enough and big enough to fulfill the contest requirements. Perhaps more
participation would cure this, or perhaps soaring is an activity that will
NEVER appeal to a large enough segment of the population to make this a
popular activity.

One of the other goals of the Achievement Program was to require the
successful demonstration of a broad base of experience in soaring. To excel
only in thermal soaring is just a part of the picture. You need to
demonstrate other soaring skills as well, along with some technical
competence. This isn't going to happen unless the program is challenging
and of course if it's challenging, some people are not going to be able to
complete the program.

Many seem to think it's essential to achieve Level V in order to have
accomplished something in the LSF program. I believe that whatever level
you achieve you've participated, improved your flying skills and have gained
something personally. Not all students get "A's" in school and very few
people receive the Nobel prize, but the striving is the thing, not the
ultimate attainment. Many of us will never be able to participate in or
achieve top level proficiency in many of the myriad of professions, sports,
etc., but the growth gained by trying is the key to personal satisfaction.
After all, the USA four time F3B World Champion hasn't even completed level
I, but does that make him any less of a flyer? Well maybe a little, but he
can still wipe me out pretty easily. 8-)

The other part of this is that NO ONE is forcing anyone to participate! Do
it or not as YOU see fit.

So, I hear lots of 'noise', but no action. I think there's certainly room
for another, non-contest oriented program, whether affiliated with the LSF
or not. The key to this is for some of the commentators to get off their
duff and design a program that is challenging, hence rewarding, that does
not involve organized competitions. As many have said in the past, "Build
it and they will come." However, I think it would be nice if it could be
fit into the framework of the LSF as a parallel, companion program. I can't
imagine that a thinking LSF board would refuse outright a program that would
increase the participation in soaring while; one. encouraging some of the
members currently discouraged from further participation by the contest
requirements of the current program; and two, bringing into the 'soaring
fraternity' another interested group of pilots with the potential for
greater exposure and more participation.

So, perhaps a new, non-contest orientated program would help.

I worked the LSF program many years ago and I'd be interested in a new
challenge.

Jim Porter LSF 194 V #21
Neckargemund-Dilsberg
Germany

"The airplane stays up because it doesn't have the time to fall."
Orville Wright



> Ken Lilja writes:
>
> >Raschow@aol.com wrote:
> >LSF is a SELF achievement program.
> >
> >LSF can't possibly be "self" achievement program since you need to
> >compete against others to advance (to win others must loose). I expect
> >to do an an 8 hour flight some day for the personal challenge. But
> >competition interests me very little and thus does the LSF. Now an
> >organization that recognizes construction, design and flying of
> >sailplanes would interest me a great deal.

>
> I personally do not enjoy competition flying myself, that's why I always
> let Joe do the contest flying. That's also why I have never been

interested
> in even beginning with the LSF achievement program.
>
> A few years ago I had the poor judgement to mention essentially this same
> point as your post on RCSE. I got thoroughly flamed in public by quite a
> few folks on the list for even suggesting such a thing. I was accused of
> attempting to destroy LSF, that I had no right to make such comments since
> folks used my sailplane designs in competition, etc., etc., and was
> essentially threatened with the soaring equivalent of excommunication,
> including by a number of the officers of LSF at that time. It was almost
> like being declared "Sal for the day".
>
> However, I received over three times as many private responses from folks
> who strongly agreed with me. They didn't make their responses public for
> obvious reasons.
>
> Apparently there are a great many folks out there who feel similarly.
> However, they are subjected to intense "tyranny of the majority" (although
> judging from what I've seen and heard, I'm not sure that the "vocal
> majority" really is truly a majority, rather than just more vocal) if they
> ever have the audacity to even ask the question of whether there should be
> room in the organized soaring community for something other than
> competition. As a result, LSF in particular and the soaring community in
> general are alienating a significant number of avid soaring fans,

including
> some very skilled pilots and designers.
>
>
> Don Stackhouse @ DJ Aerotech
> djaerotech@erinet.com
> http://www.djaerotech.com


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Old Oct 11, 2003, 03:01 AM
Stephen Syrotiak
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] LSF 5 question... give me your verdict!

Geeze Edgar, look what you've done!
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Old Oct 11, 2003, 03:02 AM
Nostalgiaflyer@aol.com
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] LSF 5 question... give me your verdict!

To pilots interested in the LSF program but don't like contesting and pilots
who are not interested in LSF because of the contest requirements:

I and my fellow LSFers welcome all levels of LSF activity and interest.
Through Level II there is no contest requirement. Your fellow LSFers working on
Level V value your Level II very much. They need you for witnesses.

I know several pilots who have completed Level IV and are working on Level V.
Because they live in California they have been able to complete almost all
the Level V tasks. Because they live in California the 3 contest wins are
extremely difficult (the reason I was Level IV for 20 years). Because of their age
and the level of competition several of these Level V aspirants know they will
never achieve Level V. Interestingly, none of these persons are disappointed
with their situation. They all feel that the chase was reward enough and they
are proud of their completion of the non-competition tasks.

So there you have it--for a true self-accomplishment program do the
non-contest tasks and be proud of your efforts. The Level V tasks are difficult, fun to
do, and very rewarding on achievement. I, and my fellow LSFers will honor
your efforts.

Mike Clancy
LSF 926 V 92



Old Oct 14, 2003, 03:02 AM
Doug Pike
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] LSF 5 question... give me your verdict!

..This is the address for the Canadian Soaring Society.

Doug

http://www.crcss.org/


>
> I believe there is a program broadly parallel to the LSF in Canada which
> has various steps or medals of achievement which does not require that you
> win at contests. I remember reading something about this some time ago

and
> appreciated that it was indeed a "SELF achievement program." I recall
> some of the tasks were quite challenging. Perhaps someone could refresh my
> memory with a web site.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill
>
> RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe"

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