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Old May 28, 2012, 10:25 PM
Balsa breaks better
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Buchanan Mi
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Model Aviation October 1975

Winch Line, W.I.N.G.S., a teaser for next month and a kid named Dave.
What became of W.I.N.G.S. ? What was it's max membership? How long was it with us?
I meet Dave in Utica 1988 at my first contest. Dad coached me to 2nd on Saturday and 4th on Sunday for 1st overall at the Dual Soar In. Thank You, Dad, that was the best birthday present I ever recieved.

I wouldn't mind getting a copy of the original Cumic myself being a "V - Tail" flier myself.

Joe
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Old May 28, 2012, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Jolly View Post
Really a short sided set of rules in my estimation Chuck..... It bothers me that they took this approach instead of the more reasonable effort required by SAM. Lj
I tried to get SAM type rules adapted. I at least wanted to allow the designer to certify plans of models flown at major events such as the SOAR Nats, LSF tournaments, or the Nats. Unfortunately, I was a majority of one. This was before Nostalgia was an official AMA event. Now that Nostalgia is an official event, the definition of legal models can be changed by submitting a rules change proposal.
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Old May 28, 2012, 11:37 PM
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This is the original 1974 Tern IV. It was retired in 1976 because the wing wasn't strong enough for the stronger winches coming into use. The second photo is a 1996 replica I built just to see if it flew as well as I remembered. It didn't. Memories are often better than the real thing.
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Old May 29, 2012, 12:15 AM
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Huntington Beach, Ca
Joined Feb 2010
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Looking for a old flying buddy.......

Anyone out there know how to get in contact with Phil Harris that use to fly with Harbor Soaring Society and on the contest circuit back in the 70's and 80's here in Southern California?

I flew with Phil Harris from about 1975 to 1979 and lost contact with him, sure would like to say Hello Again!

Please let me know if anyone knows how to contact him or has an e-mail address.

Thanks Again

Scott Miller
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Old May 29, 2012, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckA View Post
I tried to get SAM type rules adapted. I at least wanted to allow the designer to certify plans of models flown at major events such as the SOAR Nats, LSF tournaments, or the Nats. Unfortunately, I was a majority of one. This was before Nostalgia was an official AMA event. Now that Nostalgia is an official event, the definition of legal models can be changed by submitting a rules change proposal.
You mean like this one?

3.1.7.1.1: The latest accepted magazine, or book, cover date for the 'published design', or the manufacturer's 'construction plans date' of a kit will be prior to 1/1/80. Models that have been kitted, but where there is no date on the plan or on the instructions, an advertisement in a dated magazine or book can be used for dating of the design.

3.1.7.1.2: If the plan used for construction and documentation was published in a book or magazine, all of the parts of the plane must be scalable and buildable from the plan. The aircraft construction and materials must be detailed, and not just a 3-view. This is especially important for the shape of the airfoil if it is not from a published set of coordinates.

3.1.7.1.3: If the ‘kit‘ or ‘published design‘ had several construction plan dates that include modifications to the original design, only those changes made prior to 1/1/80 will be accepted.

3.1.7.1.4: Delete and move wording to 3.1.7.1.1


Logic behind proposed change, including alleged shortcomings of the present rules. State intent for future reference.
Currently there is no accurate way to determine the “release date” of a kit from an manufacture that has went out of business, thus it would be more logical and eliminate a lot of reading between the lines of when a kit was released if the date on the plans were used. Furthermore not all manufactures “published” there construction plans, but included them in there kits only. The purposed rule change would not only clear up some misconceptions, but also should provide a more diverse contest entry base.
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Old May 29, 2012, 07:53 AM
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Rule Change Document

http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/ruleproposals.aspx
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Old May 29, 2012, 08:15 AM
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http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/ruleschangeform.doc

Ray
Sky Bench ... Woodys Forever
http://www.skybench.com
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Old May 29, 2012, 08:50 AM
Balsa breaks better
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Buchanan Mi
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Nostalgia Rules Change

At first I was tempted to delete the on going debate about the Aquila XL but I started it here. After all, even this is part of R/C Soaring Histroy.

If I am reading this right, we have to wait until 2013 to fly a sailplane that can be shown to have been around before 1-1-80 if you can provide a construction plan with a date on it in an AMA sactioned Nostalgia contest if the proposal passes the next two rounds of voting.

Joe
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Old May 29, 2012, 09:57 AM
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I was the CD for the... if I remember correctly... regional NSS competition at Ft Worth in 1980. I've been trying to follow this thread but maybe I missed it. What exactly happened to the NSS?
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Old May 29, 2012, 10:38 AM
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Dawg...they ran that pickup truck all out of gas......
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Old May 29, 2012, 10:47 AM
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Guys,
If you are thinking about a rules change please think the process out. The rules as they are written favor published designs or kits. It would be great if the rules were open to include individuals like Chuck who designed a plane and competed with it, but had no intention of publishing it or kitting it. It should be enough that there was a photograph or other verifiable reference to a desing prior to to the 81 cutoff.. Nostalgia should be loosened up closer to the SAM standards. LJ
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Old May 29, 2012, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaler View Post
At first I was tempted to delete the on going debate about the Aquila XL but I started it here. After all, even this is part of R/C Soaring Histroy.

If I am reading this right, we have to wait until 2013 to fly a sailplane that can be shown to have been around before 1-1-80 if you can provide a construction plan with a date on it in an AMA sactioned Nostalgia contest if the proposal passes the next two rounds of voting.

Joe

Joe, Does the Jan 1, 80 date have to be changed to Jan 1, 81 to include the Sagitta 900 ?? You have a good hand on what planes would qualify if the cut off date was changed, so I'm hoping your the answer man on this.

What would you prefer to change, the date on the construction plan, the Jan 80 date or a photo ?

The problem I have with a photo is how does a NOS CD verify the airfoil? Also, not all the designers back in the day would have included a date on their plan, but maybe a dated photo ( mag. or date stamp on back of photo or some other proof of date ) would work.

Ray
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Old May 29, 2012, 11:31 AM
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Proceed with caution

Think through the modifications you put forth carefully. Well-meaning intentions to prevent cheating could dampen enthusiasm for Nostalgia.
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Old May 29, 2012, 12:46 PM
Balsa breaks better
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Buchanan Mi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Hayes View Post
Joe, Does the Jan 1, 80 date have to be changed to Jan 1, 81 to include the Sagitta 900 ?? You have a good hand on what planes would qualify if the cut off date was changed, so I'm hoping your the answer man on this.
The Sagitta 900 was published in April 1981 in RCM, so the answer is yes, the date would have to be changed.
The 600 was published in May 1982. I just aquired one of these, Thank You Jim!
I am not sure about the XC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Hayes View Post
What would you prefer to change, the date on the construction plan, the Jan 80 date or a photo ?
Proof of date on a set of plans sounds like the best to me, you could check airfoils and general plane shape.
I would not want to change the cut off date in the spirit of the "Original Rules". Jack Iafret and others did the brain storming on this for a reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Hayes View Post
The problem I have with a photo is how does a NOS CD verify the airfoil? Also, not all the designers back in the day would have included a date on their plan, but maybe a dated photo ( mag. or date stamp on back of photo or some other proof of date ) would work.
Ray
Again, only change the rules to include date on plans, it's the only way to keep it honest.
As you say, can't tell from a photo what is what, could have an extra 2' of wing and 15% less area for all anyone would know.

In the spirit of Nostalgia and the general group of guys that fly it I doubt any cheating on the airfoil would happen (other than the errors from sanding, it's a bit hard to get a S3014 out of a size 11 flatbottom and call it an error ) but we all know human nature too.
Even if the root rib matched the plans, who is to say that the rest of the wing uses the original airfoil on the planes flown now. I hope there isn't something like that going on but we know human nature.

Those plans that could not be verified by date would sadly need to be left out. Maybe the invioce could be used if it has been saved showing name of plan and date purchased.

Joe
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Old May 29, 2012, 01:12 PM
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Jim and Ray
I would like you two gentlemen to consider something. This notion of Nostalgia and cheating has been a turn-off for me for years. The idea of Nostalgia is to provide a class that celebrates and preserves the history of our hobby. That is one of the reasons I am so against the prejudice against the Sagitta...
I think it was at the last Nats that Mike L flew a Mirage with all carbon spars against the other entries. To me this is far more of a deliberate clever use of the rules than flying against a Sagitta.
Obviously I am very interested in the history of RC sailplanes and the evolution that took place. I would just like to get past this cheater airplane mentality and move on to what Nostalgia is all about.
There is something else I would like to mention about Nostalgia. There are several of us that enjoyed flying the desin designs from the 60's and 70's. There was a great deal of satisfaction derived from crafting your own set of wings and tossing them off a slope. Many of our friends are getting older and they can still see and fly well enough to enjoy flying these old planes. I feel there should be more Nostalgia class events to keep the older generation involved. Am I crazy? Maybe, I just think that the hobby would be richer if more obscure designs were allowed to compete. A CD can determine pretty easy of someone has shown up with a Ringer... I just think the rules should be more inline to promote our heritage instead of protect the Windrifters from a cheater airplane..
Did you ever consider it odd that our Nostalgia rules would make it illegal to fly a Sagitta 900 but it is legal to fly a Dassel ?????? This is the thing that can happen when you don't consider the consequences of good intentions.
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