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Old Nov 23, 2012, 03:36 PM
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Xermark - no, there is negative pitch when tx is set to zero and blades look fine at 0 Pitch. Thanks you for pointing out the tx only shows throttle although this seems kind of useless without the pitch for reference also.

So many pitfalls after you actually learn to fly it's amazing I even got this far. There's never been a better time to get into rc, turns out there's never been a more confusing time to get into rc. If anyone had told me I would be messing with a tx at least twice as much as I would be flying I would have laughed my ass off at them.

Bthirsk - I do not have any pitch gauge but believe the pitch is zero at mid stick. It hovers very stable and has no predetermination to go any direction apart from in a pirouette but i am told this will never be perfect like the sim and always duck back and right when turning left and slow down when turning left. I presumed only the toys like v911 had that flaw.

The Devo7e has rudder and yaw on the left stick horizontal when I try with real flight an no end of messing can seperate those channels either so I can't even practice on the sim with proper settings either.
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 06:31 PM
Brent 黑雁
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Canada, AB, Ponoka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by microrcfiend View Post
Xermark - no, there is negative pitch when tx is set to zero and blades look fine at 0 Pitch. Thanks you for pointing out the tx only shows throttle although this seems kind of useless without the pitch for reference also.

So many pitfalls after you actually learn to fly it's amazing I even got this far. There's never been a better time to get into rc, turns out there's never been a more confusing time to get into rc. If anyone had told me I would be messing with a tx at least twice as much as I would be flying I would have laughed my ass off at them.

Bthirsk - I do not have any pitch gauge but believe the pitch is zero at mid stick. It hovers very stable and has no predetermination to go any direction apart from in a pirouette but i am told this will never be perfect like the sim and always duck back and right when turning left and slow down when turning left. I presumed only the toys like v911 had that flaw.

The Devo7e has rudder and yaw on the left stick horizontal when I try with real flight an no end of messing can seperate those channels either so I can't even practice on the sim with proper settings either.
There are some posts with formulas on how to calculate pitch by setting both blades together. At mid stick, the tips should be level. At H stick the blades will have one up and one down. You measure the distance between them and you can calculate total pitch. You can do the same for negative.
Here is a link to calculate the pitch.
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Last edited by BThirsk; Nov 23, 2012 at 06:58 PM.
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 06:53 PM
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Where I can find carbon square tubes in order to cut my own tail booms? What dimensions of tube do I need to buy?
3+ dollars for a single tiny tail boom I think that it's too much money.
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 07:01 PM
Team WarpSquad
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Isnt it 2mm? What's the length?

Look into the v911 and Turnigy FBL100. Those are cheap.

rcfoam.com has stock.
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by helicopter_new View Post
Where I can find carbon square tubes in order to cut my own tail booms? What dimensions of tube do I need to buy?
3+ dollars for a single tiny tail boom I think that it's too much money.
I'm not sure of the size but if it is the same as the Genius it's 2mm square CF tubing. You can get it at RC Foam for $2.50 + shipping for a 1000mm stick.

Regards,
John
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by helicopter_new View Post
Where I can find carbon square tubes in order to cut my own tail booms? What dimensions of tube do I need to buy?
3+ dollars for a single tiny tail boom I think that it's too much money.
I bought my MCP used from indoorheli & he had 2mm round solid carbon rod & just wrapped the tail motor wires around the outside of the boom. I learned how to flip & fly inverted with it with tons of crashes. Still solid & strong. It's a tight fit into the frame but you need to hot glue it to keep it from turning.
http://www.rcfoam.com/product_info.p...06e8d79142e1df
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Old Nov 24, 2012, 12:26 AM
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progress, thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by BThirsk View Post
There are some posts with formulas on how to calculate pitch by setting both blades together. At mid stick, the tips should be level. At H stick the blades will have one up and one down. You measure the distance between them and you can calculate total pitch. You can do the same for negative.
Here is a link to calculate the pitch.
Thank you for the link. I was fearing some trig clicking on that link but it was super simple.

Everything seems good now but had to model reset totally before what I input actually worked. I'm sure it was my mistake but I can't repeat it so I can move on to actually test flying now. Used these settings for now with 70% dual rates and 30% expo, just a small lower in height when switching to stunt
http://helifreak.com/showpost.php?p=...9&postcount=24

Feels good but tame after twichy sim practice with the 3d helis and the esky usb non programmable, will fly outside before tweaking though.

After watching a bunch of heli build vids, putting the servos at 90 degrees at level swash and 0 pitch seems pretty universal. My question is how much does this matter to this tiny heli as it's the only thing that possibly isn't as good as I can get it.
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Old Nov 24, 2012, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by microrcfiend View Post
... It hovers very stable and has no predetermination to go any direction apart from in a pirouette but i am told this will never be perfect like the sim and always duck back and right when turning left and slow down when turning left. I presumed only the toys like v911 had that flaw.

...
I think BHChieftain posted a good explanation in a different thread a while back:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BHChieftain View Post
I had the same question a long time ago, and somebody (I forget who) explained this to me:

Remember that the heli cants to the right in a hover. So when you apply rudder for a right turn (nose turns right), the nose drops down and the tail rises up, now you have some unexpected forward "thrust". To counter that, when you turn right, you need to apply some rear cyclic.

Conversely, when you apply left rudder, the nose rises and the tail drops, then the heli wants to "back up" a bit, so you need to apply some forward cyclic to compensate.

The gyros in this heli do not compensate for this, so you need to do it manually.

Chief
And then there is this post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsmillertime View Post
That's common for pretty much all cp helis. Just have to learn to fly it, lol. Try a quick jab of left aileron to get the rotor disk parallel to the ground just before your rudder input and watch how smoothly it piro's.
Notes:

In a different thread, Bobepine posted that he was the one that explained this aerodynamic phenomenon to Chief

On my micro helis, the forward and backward "drifting" that occurs during a RUD/yaw rotation is minimized the closer the heli's CoG is balanced in both EL and AIL directions to line up with the Main Shaft.

I think the easiest most effective method to minimize the "drifting" that occurs when using RUD commands is to only use RUD for orienting the nose, and use EL and AIL to control which direction the heli's body should go. In the below video, the Ice Skaters pirouette (use RUD command) to only orient their nose; however, no matter which direction their nose is oriented they tilt their body's CoG in the appropriate EL and AIL directions to make their "overall" bodies move in the desired direction:

Rockettes - Free Skating 2011 (2 min 27 sec)
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Old Nov 24, 2012, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by microrcfiend View Post
...

After watching a bunch of heli build vids, putting the servos at 90 degrees at level swash and 0 pitch seems pretty universal. My question is how much does this matter to this tiny heli as it's the only thing that possibly isn't as good as I can get it.
I think tracknoob and jasmine posted a couple good answers to this question in the Blade NanoCP (has linear Servos) thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tracknoob View Post
I think you are generally correct, BUT there are always costs to doing something less than perfectly. For instance, with traditional servos (not these linears), you expect the servo arms to be 90 degrees at midstick, so if one is not at 90 degrees, then the travel per unit input will be different than expected, and while the gyros will eventually make everything alright, it's still nonlinear... same with the travel limits -- while you typically won't drive travel all the way to the physical servo limits, the farther from dead middle you are, the less travel you have for a perfectly symmetric pos/neg pitch range.

Practical impact on the Nano? Probably nil.

So I'm not saying to obsess over setup, but I think 'best practices' are still pretty good to follow even with compensating systems in place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
Yes that's what I was getting at. Just wanted to make people think a minute about it. With flybarless systems, the centering and leveling doesn't have to be perfect. The flybarless gyro wouldn't even know if it was. The problem comes when things are off-center so far as to affect the end points - but if you don't have that, the thing will fly just fine.

...
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Old Nov 24, 2012, 06:32 AM
Brent 黑雁
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Canada, AB, Ponoka
Joined Jan 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by microrcfiend View Post
Thank you for the link. I was fearing some trig clicking on that link but it was super simple.

Everything seems good now but had to model reset totally before what I input actually worked. I'm sure it was my mistake but I can't repeat it so I can move on to actually test flying now. Used these settings for now with 70% dual rates and 30% expo, just a small lower in height when switching to stunt
http://helifreak.com/showpost.php?p=...9&postcount=24

Feels good but tame after twichy sim practice with the 3d helis and the esky usb non programmable, will fly outside before tweaking though.

After watching a bunch of heli build vids, putting the servos at 90 degrees at level swash and 0 pitch seems pretty universal. My question is how much does this matter to this tiny heli as it's the only thing that possibly isn't as good as I can get it.
It only depends on how it flys. If you have zero pitch at mid stick and swash plate is level at this point and hover is almost hands off, that usually means it will be fine.
If the swash is level and the hover creates a lot of drift, the servos travels are not the same because of initial positioning as per i812 post. On mine, the servos are not 90 degrees, but they are all about 10 degrees low so does not seem to effect pitch. It's when you have, for example, 2 at 90 degrees and 1 10 degrees low that the cyclic changes will occur as pitch is changed. If it does not create a problem, leave it as is because the setup is quite involved with as flybarless to correct.
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Old Nov 24, 2012, 08:41 PM
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Ideally all 3 Servo Arms should be mechanically "Zero'd" at 90*.

However, the splines in the Servo Arm only allows positioning of the Servo Arm to within +/- 1 Servo Tooth of 90*; therefore, a more realistic (less than ideal) scenario, would be to have all 3 Servo's have the same amount and direction of "error" away from "Zero" (i.e. 90*).

If all 3 Servos don't "track" with the same amount of error, then most people would choose the 2 most closely matched Servo/Arms for use as the two rear AIL Servos. With the mismatch error existing only between EL Servo and the "matched-pair" AIL Servos, a change in Pitch command would result in only an un-commanded EL Servo error (otherwise if the AIL Servos were mismatched in error tracking, then a change in Pitch command would result in both un-commanded EL and AIL Servo errors).

As tracknoob and jasmine stated, ideally regardless of whatever un-commanded Servo errors that may occur, the Servo error(s) will later be sensed by the Gyro(s), which will subsequently send error correction signals to the appropriate "off-track" Servos, and given enough time (through many Gyro/Servo iterations?) a good control system will eventually reduce the error.

Although I think having Servo Arms and their Links mechanically perfect, will provide the best smoothest flight, I believe the best "bang for the buck" can be had from the "ground-up" by "obsessing" over initializing the Gyro system on a horizontally plumb launch site from a plumb-square Landing Skid. My next lower level of obsession would be from the "top-down", trying to get as close to zero Blade Tracking Error and hover vibrations. When the ground-up, and top-down priorities were satisfactory, then I'd focus on obsessing with "zeroing" the Servo Arms and their Links.

Indoorheli's - How To Adjust Servo Links video was recently posted in the Nano thread:

mCPX Swashplate & Pitch Tips - indoorHELLi 006 (9 min 24 sec)


A Tie-Wrap carefully rotated around the Main Shaft can be used instead of a Leveling Tool to indicate the "levelness" of the Servo Links.

For what it is worth, I eyeball my Servo Arms to position them to have the same amount of Zero error as possible, then simply measure and adjust all 3 Servo Links to the same length for positioning the Swashplate in the center of its travel limits at zero Pitch. Even though I think mechanically adjusting everything to perfection would result in the smoothest flight, I don't obsess too much about it. I strive to get the most bang for my buck, and therefore try to spend more time crashing than fixing.
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Last edited by i812; Nov 25, 2012 at 08:43 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old Nov 25, 2012, 11:36 AM
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Ok guys, got some tame settings and 3d settings in, tested a few batteries in the house yesterday with mild pitch pumps and some precise landings and it felt like a completely new beast. Thanks for the guidance to this point.

Took it outside today and it flew like crap, no changes at all. I had to put a shed load of trim ,left I think in the yaw and power is pretty poor when trying to bank corners. Then I tried to switch to stunt mode and I get a high speed piro on the spot. I did put a dab of uhu por on the tail where it enters the body but it is sat exactly as before as it was not a very tight friction fit.

So I tried the other preset models for this thing I had and all did the same thing. I have some footage, just give me time to take out the swearing and upload. It feels like i'm being teased and tested by walkera as there are glimpses of perfection then utter crud. Yesterday I wanted a second one of these, now I am thinking I need to try non walkera.

I had a battery with the ladybird while this was cooling down and I am never taking it outside again. It's the most terrible quad at banking it's daft, I detest the way the rudder kicks in and spazzes out when you start to release the aileron when flying fast and it breaks motor mounts with even gentle falls on anything hard. Forever relegated to slow precise inside flying for rainy miserable days. I can't believe I read so much good stuff about it and no one ever posted how awful it is at cornering hard.

I will have a coffee and try totally new settings, check the heli over and see if there is anything odd I can see.
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Old Nov 25, 2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by microrcfiend View Post
Ok guys, got some tame settings and 3d settings in, tested a few batteries in the house yesterday with mild pitch pumps and some precise landings and it felt like a completely new beast. Thanks for the guidance to this point.

Took it outside today and it flew like crap, no changes at all. I had to put a shed load of trim ,left I think in the yaw and power is pretty poor when trying to bank corners. Then I tried to switch to stunt mode and I get a high speed piro on the spot. I did put a dab of uhu por on the tail where it enters the body but it is sat exactly as before as it was not a very tight friction fit.

So I tried the other preset models for this thing I had and all did the same thing. I have some footage, just give me time to take out the swearing and upload. It feels like i'm being teased and tested by walkera as there are glimpses of perfection then utter crud. Yesterday I wanted a second one of these, now I am thinking I need to try non walkera.

I had a battery with the ladybird while this was cooling down and I am never taking it outside again. It's the most terrible quad at banking it's daft, I detest the way the rudder kicks in and spazzes out when you start to release the aileron when flying fast and it breaks motor mounts with even gentle falls on anything hard. Forever relegated to slow precise inside flying for rainy miserable days. I can't believe I read so much good stuff about it and no one ever posted how awful it is at cornering hard.

I will have a coffee and try totally new settings, check the heli over and see if there is anything odd I can see.
if found the settings Manuel Campos uses for the rudder to be very nice, almost feels like my twitch little v911 in regards to rudder.


Rudder
D/R 125%
EXP -70
Travel Adjust
Rudder L121% R121%

Be very careful the first time you test out those rudder settings. their much faster then the stock settings that were stupidly slow.

http://helifreak.com/showpost.php?p=...2&postcount=17 the full setings, i would not use most of these as a beginner.
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Old Nov 25, 2012, 05:37 PM
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Hey Xermalk, I just tried those settings although kept the negative expo on the rudder to -20 as I have never gone into the negative expo range before but I like it very much - good call.

I uploaded the footage from todays frustration although with Manuel's settings all seems well with the flight mode change so I can only guess it was related to change in rotor speed and I gave you guys a chuckle at least. I don't understand why transitioning to stunt mode yesterday was just a small drop in height though when it did not work today

mini cp 3rd flight outside (11 min 16 sec)


EDIT - it seems gluing the tail was not the only thing I did before taking it outside. I also copied the model and changed the pitch curves slightly. It took me way too long to click but the previous 'phantom' negative 12.5% pitch and 87.5% throttle are now totally explained.

If I make a new model entry all is perfect, when I copy that same model and change nothing it is fine. If I then change the pitch curve on that copied model it changes fine on screen but does not change the actual settings. I am new to this so had to try it many many times before I was certain but 4 hours playing with my devo7e and this fault tell me it is so. Maybe this can be sorted with a firmware update but god damn Walkera - so much damage to my skids, canopy and rotors are directly related to this devo7e firmware glitch. Bring on the deviation firmware for this model, I welcome it.

At least I finally have some clarity on the subject and my heli now performs exactly as the settings say it should even if can't use the copy function I would so like to. Thanks for helping me rule out the basic setup stuff I was not confident at guys, this place is golden, i'll try and vent frustrations else where in the future.
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Last edited by microrcfiend; Nov 25, 2012 at 09:26 PM. Reason: devo 7e glitch epiphany
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Old Nov 25, 2012, 11:30 PM
Deviant
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Originally Posted by microrcfiend View Post
Hey Xermalk, I just tried those settings although kept the negative expo on the rudder to -20 as I have never gone into the negative expo range before but I like it very much - good call.

I uploaded the footage from todays frustration although with Manuel's settings all seems well with the flight mode change so I can only guess it was related to change in rotor speed and I gave you guys a chuckle at least. I don't understand why transitioning to stunt mode yesterday was just a small drop in height though when it did not work today

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUGwm...ature=youtu.be

EDIT - it seems gluing the tail was not the only thing I did before taking it outside. I also copied the model and changed the pitch curves slightly. It took me way too long to click but the previous 'phantom' negative 12.5% pitch and 87.5% throttle are now totally explained.

If I make a new model entry all is perfect, when I copy that same model and change nothing it is fine. If I then change the pitch curve on that copied model it changes fine on screen but does not change the actual settings. I am new to this so had to try it many many times before I was certain but 4 hours playing with my devo7e and this fault tell me it is so. Maybe this can be sorted with a firmware update but god damn Walkera - so much damage to my skids, canopy and rotors are directly related to this devo7e firmware glitch. Bring on the deviation firmware for this model, I welcome it.

At least I finally have some clarity on the subject and my heli now performs exactly as the settings say it should even if can't use the copy function I would so like to. Thanks for helping me rule out the basic setup stuff I was not confident at guys, this place is golden, i'll try and vent frustrations else where in the future.
Some example curves or throttle and pitch:
1. Fmode0, normal flying
THR: 0 inh inh 80 inh inh 100
PIT: 0 inh inh 0 inh inh 100

2. Fmode1, stunt
THR: 100 inh inh 80 inh inh 100
PIT: -100 inh inh 0 inh inh 100

Note: you MUST have travel adjus for PITCH at 57 to 60 both L and H. Otherwise it will bog badly.

If you switch flight mode slightly above middle stick, you will not see any altitude drop. This is accomplished by having aprox. same amount of throttle and pitch on both curves.

While switched to FMODE1, you can now flip it.

PS: I think you should have a reading on this thread, take it slowly it will take you a few days but it will clear up most things. Don't be lazy :P
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