|Jan 06, 2012, 06:43 AM|
There have been pirates through all ages that ships existed.
Every nation had their own pirates and every nation also tried to defend themselves against foreign pirates at the same time.
There even has been "a golden age of piracy" when it was quite common to become a pirate by profession.
Actually no matter what time you are looking at.
To refine the time we are looking at we could say from 1500 -1800 -
three full centuries.
The center century - the golden age of the golden age - of that would of course be 1600 - 1700 - the 17th century.
The most interesting aspect of these three centuries is that there basically was no difference between warships, merchantmen or pirateships -
except for the biggest warships no one than a whole nation could pay for.
So each nation had a king and each other member of that nation had to pay taxes. That´s how these monstergaleons came together.
Just as simple as that.
But the majority of ships was smaller.
Which again leads us to the medium sized vessels of that period.
Three-masted, square-rigged Galeons.
500-600 metric tons.
Frigates, Pinnaces, Eastindiamen - or whatever you might wanna call them.
All of them where armed.
Preferably one closed gun deck + additional armament like swivel guns and so forth.
Every nation had them.
I am still looking for plans and/or useful informations/links to get more insight.
Who can help me or participate to that discussion in an educated/useful way?
(And this is not ment to offend anybody in any way or to appear arrogant - I just don´t want to waste my time.)
Further informations why I got stuck with my original
"16th Century Pirate Galeon Project" can be found here:
|Jan 06, 2012, 10:08 AM|
Joined Oct 2006
hi professor i have a couple friends here i could check with if i can get hold of them, but it is possible that there isn't anyone here who is able to help you in this matter, or i think something would have come up by now...yes, no?
|Jan 06, 2012, 10:39 AM|
Vic, that of course would be great!
I really appreciate your attitude.
Oh - actually I think most readers here are just too lazy,
some maybe also overwelmed or angry about me -...-
But you know I´m a friendly man and I try to help whereever I can.
So I believe this won´t stay "unrewarded" sooner or later.
Even if some think I´m harsh, rude or unpolite.
By the way - I have added some very interesting links I found on my wikipedia research today - under Frigates and Pinnaces on the first page.
There even is a link to an American 1:1 rebuild of a swedish Pinasship!
So - once again, thank you very much!
|Jan 06, 2012, 02:18 PM|
|Jan 07, 2012, 03:01 AM|
please don´t be so pessimistic.
Only time will tell.
As I´m an optimist I still believe someone with the proper informations will show up. And in the time in between I can continue to refine my concept of the ideal Pirate Galeon.
Maybe sometimes in the future even Hollywood might be calling!
You´ll never know -...-
|Jan 07, 2012, 04:29 AM|
For research you look for www.modelmodelshipworld.com might be better suited. check out this thread
|Jan 07, 2012, 05:02 AM|
Thanks a lot!
www.modelshipworld.com (corrected adress)
Have you also seen this one?
|Jan 10, 2012, 09:22 AM|
That´s the right direction, Meatbomber!
Thank you very much!
What a pretty little ship she is!
From what I can see here, I would think she´s in the range of 200 to 250 tons displacement.
Please correct me, if you think I´m wrong!
Which leads me exactly back to the problem I ran into with my Pirate Galeon Project:
If you look at the proportions of this Pinasship "Papegojan" and then compare it/them with the "Red Lion" and the "Andalucia" - you will cognite there must be something wrong!
Both of them are actually a full story (deck) higher than the "Papegojan"!!!
Now the Spanish Galeon "Andalucia" has actually been built. It exists. Today!
She is 52 meters long, about 10 meters wide and has a proven displacement of 500 metric tons.
The "Red Lion" - as per the plans I have - is "said to be" only 40 meters long, 8 meters wide and with an "estimated" displacement of about 240-250 metric tons! The plan says scale 1:100.
And she looks exactly like the "Andalucia"??????????
This can´t be it!!!!!
Once again my request - Please correct me, if you think I´m wrong!
|Jan 12, 2012, 10:47 PM|
Definition by comparison - the only way left to go!
For me there can only be one conclusion about the "Red Lion":
These plans are NOT 1/100 as printed on each plan sheet,
Either the author of the original plan was an idiot or a liar.
Or the shop where these plans where printed had changed the scale
and overall size of the plans without asking the author at all for his OK.
(like: nobody will re-check that anyway -...- )
And IF they asked him and he GAVE his OK it is even worse I think.
But I originally wanted to build a big scale galeon at 1/20 and I want to stay with that concept!
I´m not willing to change my original intention just because somebody unknown to me had been able to trick me for whatever stupid benefit - no way!
I may not even be very talented, but at least I´m stubborn.
So I´m actually in the situation of having again to start from Zero for the second time.
As Wolfram zu Mondfeld writes in his book "Historic Shipmodels": "Never trust a plan!"
I´ve learned that the hard way.
Now instead of building another model based on the original "Red Lion" plans at "real" 1/20 scale - which means plansize is increased to 625 % (!) by now - a "Red Lion II" so to say - some time ago I started thinking about a galeon, which is only based on that ship but further developed.
Shifting my attention back and forth through the ages - sometimes also sideways I think - "maybe around 1627 or so" - "but prior to 1660, that´s for sure" - this kind of thoughts.
Therefore I thought I ´ll need a lot more ships and plans to compare them with each other.
Spent some 83,- Euros on 6 new books about that 16th & 17th century shipbuilding, some other 36,- Euros for two used ship books via ebay.de - and another 96,- Euros on a bigger wooden shipmodel project somebody else had given up.
(That man had paid 340,- Euros for it originally -...- )
Still not a single frame of my own new big galeon cut -...-
I don´t want to "have to" do a re-start for a third or forth time.
Now after Mr. Yancovitch has been so kind to send me a whole bunch of different ship plans per email yesterday - once again, Vic:" I can´t thank you enough for that!" - I really can say I´m "well equipped" by now - at least with ship plans.
Still not a single frame of my own new big galeon cut -...-
During all this time I had and have this certain mental image - my own ideal Pirate Galeon - my own "Jolly Roger".
I´m still not there.
"Patience, young man, patience!"
Time for a good song:
-> Might not be the "ideal" candidats for patience in itself -
Axel Rose & Guns n Roses -
but the only song I know of with that title.
And I love it!
|Jan 13, 2012, 04:16 AM|
In any case:
A little "Victory" every now and then can´t be that wrong.
Or also a bigger "Victory".
|Jan 14, 2012, 02:00 PM|
Joined Oct 2006
boy....you sure are a one man show ....no one really has to get involved in your thread....we just have to break out the popcorn and pop, ....and watch the show
|Jan 15, 2012, 07:14 AM|
No problem, Vic!
Some outstanding work has allready been done there!
Untill then I just try to get as much (relyable) datas together as possible.
Planning my next step.
Midshipsection of my 1/20 Pirate Galeon built in the same style as these:
Once again I had to notice only the bigger ships (two and three gundecks) are well documented and except "Sovereign of the Seas", "La Couronne" and "Wasa" allmost no ship prior to 1650.
|Jan 15, 2012, 09:16 AM|
Centerline cut of the "Red Lion" + Midshipsection(s):
The more I´m studying these detailplans the more mistakes (not logical things) I discover.
Really would love to talk to the author, but I think his dead by now.
Plans where drawn in 1942.
I´m not really complaining about little details like these missing stairs -
no one would build these stairs - or even think about them - inside of that model if it was only about 50 cm overall length.
But if I build a model of such (a) midshipsection(s) at 1/20 I have to think about stuff like that.
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