SMALL - espritmodel.com SMALL - Telemetry SMALL - Radio
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Jan 06, 2012, 07:43 AM
Registered User
disabled's Avatar
Vienna/Austria
Joined Jan 2009
1,112 Posts
Summary:

There have been pirates through all ages that ships existed.

Every nation had their own pirates and every nation also tried to defend themselves against foreign pirates at the same time.

There even has been "a golden age of piracy" when it was quite common to become a pirate by profession.
Actually no matter what time you are looking at.

To refine the time we are looking at we could say from 1500 -1800 -
three full centuries.
The center century - the golden age of the golden age - of that would of course be 1600 - 1700 - the 17th century.
________________

The most interesting aspect of these three centuries is that there basically was no difference between warships, merchantmen or pirateships -
except for the biggest warships no one than a whole nation could pay for.

So each nation had a king and each other member of that nation had to pay taxes. Thats how these monstergaleons came together.
Just as simple as that.
________________

But the majority of ships was smaller.
Which again leads us to the medium sized vessels of that period.
Three-masted, square-rigged Galeons.
500-600 metric tons.
Frigates, Pinnaces, Eastindiamen - or whatever you might wanna call them.
All of them where armed.
Preferably one closed gun deck + additional armament like swivel guns and so forth.
Every nation had them.

I am still looking for plans and/or useful informations/links to get more insight.
Who can help me or participate to that discussion in an educated/useful way?
(And this is not ment to offend anybody in any way or to appear arrogant - I just dont want to waste my time.)

Further informations why I got stuck with my original
"16th Century Pirate Galeon Project" can be found here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...357258&page=13
and there:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...357258&page=14
disabled is offline Find More Posts by disabled
Last edited by disabled; Jan 06, 2012 at 08:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Jan 06, 2012, 11:08 AM
Registered User
Joined Oct 2006
856 Posts
hi professor i have a couple friends here i could check with if i can get hold of them, but it is possible that there isn't anyone here who is able to help you in this matter, or i think something would have come up by now...yes, no?
yancovitch is online now Find More Posts by yancovitch
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 06, 2012, 11:39 AM
Registered User
disabled's Avatar
Vienna/Austria
Joined Jan 2009
1,112 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by yancovitch View Post
hi professor i have a couple friends here i could check with if i can get hold of them, but it is possible that there isn't anyone here who is able to help you in this matter, or i think something would have come up by now...yes, no?
Hi Admiral

Vic, that of course would be great!
I really appreciate your attitude.

Oh - actually I think most readers here are just too lazy,
some maybe also overwelmed or angry about me -...-

But you know Im a friendly man and I try to help whereever I can.
So I believe this wont stay "unrewarded" sooner or later.
Even if some think Im harsh, rude or unpolite.

By the way - I have added some very interesting links I found on my wikipedia research today - under Frigates and Pinnaces on the first page.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=15
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=13

There even is a link to an American 1:1 rebuild of a swedish Pinasship!

So - once again, thank you very much!
disabled is offline Find More Posts by disabled
Last edited by disabled; Jan 07, 2012 at 04:02 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 06, 2012, 03:18 PM
Square-rigger
meatbomber's Avatar
Klatovy, Czech Republic
Joined Mar 2004
3,357 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by disabled View Post
Oh - actually I think most readers here are just too lazy
Thats exactly why you won`t get any further information even if there was... if people would have what you look for someone would have chimed in.
meatbomber is offline Find More Posts by meatbomber
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 07, 2012, 04:01 AM
Registered User
disabled's Avatar
Vienna/Austria
Joined Jan 2009
1,112 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatbomber View Post
Thats exactly why you won`t get any further information even if there was... if people would have what you look for someone would have chimed in.
Hi Meatbomber,
please dont be so pessimistic.

Only time will tell.

As Im an optimist I still believe someone with the proper informations will show up. And in the time in between I can continue to refine my concept of the ideal Pirate Galeon.

Maybe sometimes in the future even Hollywood might be calling!
Youll never know -...-
disabled is offline Find More Posts by disabled
Last edited by disabled; Jan 07, 2012 at 05:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 07, 2012, 05:29 AM
Square-rigger
meatbomber's Avatar
Klatovy, Czech Republic
Joined Mar 2004
3,357 Posts
For research you look for www.modelmodelshipworld.com might be better suited. check out this thread
http://modelshipworld.com/phpBB2/vie...f011c1e66f3dfa
meatbomber is offline Find More Posts by meatbomber
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 07, 2012, 06:02 AM
Registered User
disabled's Avatar
Vienna/Austria
Joined Jan 2009
1,112 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatbomber View Post
For research you look for www.modelmodelshipworld.com might be better suited. check out this thread
http://modelshipworld.com/phpBB2/vie...f011c1e66f3dfa
Very Cool.
Thanks a lot!

www.modelshipworld.com (corrected adress)

Have you also seen this one?

http://www.admiraltymodels.com/

Outstanding!!!
disabled is offline Find More Posts by disabled
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 09, 2012, 03:15 PM
Square-rigger
meatbomber's Avatar
Klatovy, Czech Republic
Joined Mar 2004
3,357 Posts


how`s that...

http://www.model-shipyard.com/html/z05uk.html
meatbomber is offline Find More Posts by meatbomber
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 10, 2012, 10:22 AM
Registered User
disabled's Avatar
Vienna/Austria
Joined Jan 2009
1,112 Posts
Thats the right direction, Meatbomber!

Thank you very much!

What a pretty little ship she is!
From what I can see here, I would think shes in the range of 200 to 250 tons displacement.

Please correct me, if you think Im wrong!
__________________

Which leads me exactly back to the problem I ran into with my Pirate Galeon Project:

If you look at the proportions of this Pinasship "Papegojan" and then compare it/them with the "Red Lion" and the "Andalucia" - you will cognite there must be something wrong!

Both of them are actually a full story (deck) higher than the "Papegojan"!!!

Now the Spanish Galeon "Andalucia" has actually been built. It exists. Today!
She is 52 meters long, about 10 meters wide and has a proven displacement of 500 metric tons.

The "Red Lion" - as per the plans I have - is "said to be" only 40 meters long, 8 meters wide and with an "estimated" displacement of about 240-250 metric tons! The plan says scale 1:100.
And she looks exactly like the "Andalucia"??????????

This cant be it!!!!!

Once again my request - Please correct me, if you think Im wrong!
disabled is offline Find More Posts by disabled
Last edited by disabled; Jan 10, 2012 at 11:49 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 12, 2012, 11:47 PM
Registered User
disabled's Avatar
Vienna/Austria
Joined Jan 2009
1,112 Posts
Definition by comparison - the only way left to go!

OK.

For me there can only be one conclusion about the "Red Lion":

These plans are NOT 1/100 as printed on each plan sheet,
but 1/125!!!


Either the author of the original plan was an idiot or a liar.
Or the shop where these plans where printed had changed the scale
and overall size of the plans without asking the author at all for his OK.
(like: nobody will re-check that anyway -...- )

And IF they asked him and he GAVE his OK it is even worse I think.
_________________

But I originally wanted to build a big scale galeon at 1/20 and I want to stay with that concept!
Im not willing to change my original intention just because somebody unknown to me had been able to trick me for whatever stupid benefit - no way!

I may not even be very talented, but at least Im stubborn.

So Im actually in the situation of having again to start from Zero for the second time.
As Wolfram zu Mondfeld writes in his book "Historic Shipmodels": "Never trust a plan!"

Ive learned that the hard way.

Now instead of building another model based on the original "Red Lion" plans at "real" 1/20 scale - which means plansize is increased to 625 % (!) by now - a "Red Lion II" so to say - some time ago I started thinking about a galeon, which is only based on that ship but further developed.
Shifting my attention back and forth through the ages - sometimes also sideways I think - "maybe around 1627 or so" - "but prior to 1660, thats for sure" - this kind of thoughts.
_____________

Therefore I thought I ll need a lot more ships and plans to compare them with each other.

Spent some 83,- Euros on 6 new books about that 16th & 17th century shipbuilding, some other 36,- Euros for two used ship books via ebay.de - and another 96,- Euros on a bigger wooden shipmodel project somebody else had given up.
(That man had paid 340,- Euros for it originally -...- )

But:
Still not a single frame of my own new big galeon cut -...-

Reason:
I dont want to "have to" do a re-start for a third or forth time.

Now after Mr. Yancovitch has been so kind to send me a whole bunch of different ship plans per email yesterday - once again, Vic:" I cant thank you enough for that!" - I really can say Im "well equipped" by now - at least with ship plans.
__________________

But:
Still not a single frame of my own new big galeon cut -...-

During all this time I had and have this certain mental image - my own ideal Pirate Galeon - my own "Jolly Roger".
Im still not there.

"Patience, young man, patience!"

Time for a good song:
Guns N' Roses - Patience (6 min 6 sec)

-> Might not be the "ideal" candidats for patience in itself -
Axel Rose & Guns n Roses -
but the only song I know of with that title.

And I love it!
disabled is offline Find More Posts by disabled
Last edited by disabled; Jan 13, 2012 at 01:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 13, 2012, 05:16 AM
Registered User
disabled's Avatar
Vienna/Austria
Joined Jan 2009
1,112 Posts
In any case:

A little "Victory" every now and then cant be that wrong.

Or also a bigger "Victory".
disabled is offline Find More Posts by disabled
Last edited by disabled; Jan 13, 2012 at 05:45 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 14, 2012, 03:00 PM
Registered User
Joined Oct 2006
856 Posts
boy....you sure are a one man show ....no one really has to get involved in your thread....we just have to break out the popcorn and pop, ....and watch the show
yancovitch is online now Find More Posts by yancovitch
Last edited by yancovitch; Jan 14, 2012 at 09:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 15, 2012, 02:55 AM
Taking care of the pond.
MILLERTIME's Avatar
United States, CA, Sanger
Joined Apr 2004
7,372 Posts
.................................opcorn :
MILLERTIME is online now Find More Posts by MILLERTIME
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 15, 2012, 08:14 AM
Registered User
disabled's Avatar
Vienna/Austria
Joined Jan 2009
1,112 Posts
No problem, Vic!

Quote:
Originally Posted by yancovitch View Post
boy....you sure are a one man show ....no one really has to get involved in your thread....we just have to break out the popcorn and pop, ....and watch the show
On 26 January 2012 in the evening I will join a meeting of a group of Austrian/Viennese scale modelshipbuilders:
www.schifferlbauer.at
Some outstanding work has allready been done there!
______________

Untill then I just try to get as much (relyable) datas together as possible.

Planning my next step.
Midshipsection of my 1/20 Pirate Galeon built in the same style as these:

Once again I had to notice only the bigger ships (two and three gundecks) are well documented and except "Sovereign of the Seas", "La Couronne" and "Wasa" allmost no ship prior to 1650.
disabled is offline Find More Posts by disabled
Last edited by disabled; Jan 15, 2012 at 09:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 15, 2012, 10:16 AM
Registered User
disabled's Avatar
Vienna/Austria
Joined Jan 2009
1,112 Posts
Centerline cut of the "Red Lion" + Midshipsection(s):

The more Im studying these detailplans the more mistakes (not logical things) I discover.
Really would love to talk to the author, but I think his dead by now.
Plans where drawn in 1942.

Im not really complaining about little details like these missing stairs -
no one would build these stairs - or even think about them - inside of that model if it was only about 50 cm overall length.

But if I build a model of such (a) midshipsection(s) at 1/20 I have to think about stuff like that.
disabled is offline Find More Posts by disabled
Last edited by disabled; Jan 15, 2012 at 10:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Build Log 16th Century Pirate Galeon - a square rigger in 1:20 Scale disabled Scale Sailboats 222 Dec 17, 2012 07:35 AM
Discussion Creating the Skip Stewart Prometheus Pitts DontTMACajun Scale Kit/Scratch Built 74 Feb 23, 2012 10:28 PM
Discussion 16th Century Pirate Galeon - a Square rigger in 1:20 Scale disabled Sailboats 36 Mar 21, 2011 08:14 AM
Discussion Team Prometheus Team Prometheus FPV Talk 63 Oct 11, 2010 02:23 AM
For Sale Dwight Hartman Prometheus Tugboat fabiano_2002 Boats (FS/W) 3 Dec 08, 2008 07:43 PM