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Old Oct 04, 2003, 03:01 AM
James V. Bacus
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Re: [RCSE] one more question for the experts

At 10:29 AM 10/3/2003, Anker Berg-Sonne wrote:
>Is that the best you could come up with? ;-)


Conventional tails pack easier than the common V tail for the traveling
contest flier. 8-)

P.S. Yea, I know about the V tail on the Cobra that breaks down, I own one.


Jim
Downers Grove, IL
Member of the Chicago SOAR club, AMA 592537 LSF 7560 Level IV
ICQ 6997780 R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net

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Old Oct 04, 2003, 03:01 AM
James V. Bacus
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Re: [RCSE] one more question for the experts

At 11:51 AM 10/3/2003, James Porter Jr wrote:
>So does the V-tail on the new Starlight 3000, as does the Wizard Compact II,
>the Organic, the full D-box Graphite and the Elita!


Ya, but pulling them off the Organic and Graphite was such a pain that I
always left them mounted. I still have the Organic, I never take off the
V. The only V that really broke down nicely that I own is the Cobra. (But
I don't fly it much anymore)


Jim
Downers Grove, IL
Member of the Chicago SOAR club, AMA 592537 LSF 7560 Level IV
ICQ 6997780 R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net

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Old Oct 04, 2003, 03:01 AM
Andrew E. Mileski
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Re: [RCSE] one more question for the experts

Anker Berg-Sonne wrote:
> I think it boils down to pure and simple preference. But for the purist,
> X-tail is the way to go.
>
> Personally I prefer V-tails.


Adding fuel to the fire...

X-tails are easier to transport than a one-piece V-tail. X-tails are
simpler to trim. Good V-tails are harder to design.

My $0.02 Canadian.

--
Andrew E. Mileski
Ottawa, Canada
http://isoar.ca/

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Old Oct 04, 2003, 03:02 AM
James Porter Jr
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Re: [RCSE] one more question for the experts

> >So does the V-tail on the new Starlight 3000, as does the Wizard Compact
II, the Organic, the full D-box Graphite and the Elita!

> Ya, but pulling them off the Organic and Graphite was such a pain that I

always left them mounted. I still have the Organic, I never take off the V.
The only V that really broke down nicely that I own is the Cobra. (But I
don't fly it much anymore)

Agreed, and taking the tails off the Wizard and Elita are even more of a
pain because of the special fitting that both retains the surface and drives
it.

Jim Porter
Neckargemund-Dilsberg
Germany

"The airplane stays up because it doesn't have the time to fall."
Orville Wright

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Old Oct 04, 2003, 03:02 AM
James V. Bacus
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RE: [RCSE] one more question for the experts

At 12:39 PM 10/3/2003, Howard Mark wrote:
>Zenith V tails come off -- and it's a lot easier to transport than an Icon.


Do those come off in two pieces, I guess they do... I think I remember Mark
Taylor fitting his in a music keyboard case, very compact.

ROFL, the V vs X thread can't even be agreed upon in the packing
department! Too funny. 8-)


Jim
Downers Grove, IL
Member of the Chicago SOAR club, AMA 592537 LSF 7560 Level IV
ICQ 6997780 R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net

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Old Oct 04, 2003, 03:02 AM
Andrew E. Mileski
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Re: [RCSE] one more question for the experts

James V. Bacus wrote:
> ROFL, the V vs X thread can't even be agreed upon in the packing
> department! Too funny. 8-)


No, I specifically stated one-piece V-tails being inconvenient.

I don't see many 2-piece V-tails. Probably because of the weight
penalty and repeatable alignment issues.

--
Andrew E. Mileski
Ottawa, Canada
http://isoar.ca/

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Old Oct 04, 2003, 03:02 AM
Paul Griebenow
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n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] one more question for the experts

Hi,
I don't mean to be contrary, but it seems to me that
in flying we often use both elevator and rudder at the
same time (i.e. how many of you use up elevator and
rudder to hold a thermal turn?) In which case the X
is fighting itself, and the V isn't. For rudder only,
the X tries to roll the wrong direction too, but
admittedly to a lesser extent. You also have a
greater aerodynamical wingspan on the V, reducing
induced drag (theoretically, if properly designed,
etc) (I think)

So, personally, I come up with the opposite conclusion
- V-tails for the purist. I think they look nicer,
too.

I'm not even sure if that's worth 2 cents. . .

Paul


--- Anker Berg-Sonne <Anker@AnkerSoft.com> wrote:
> Is that the best you could come up with? ;-)
>
> Aerodynamically the X tail is most efficient because
> no surfaces work
> "against" each other. When you apply up or down
> elevator to a V-tail, you
> try to spread the tails when giving up and push then
> together when giving
> down. Also, when applying rudder on a V-tail it
> tries to work bit like
> ailerons, applying a rolling force, unfortunately in
> the "wrong" direction -
> opposite the normal aileron.
>
> HOWEVER, the V-tail is less susceptible to damage on
> landings and can be
> made lighter, AND the forces mentioned above are
> very small compaed with the
> other forces. IN ADDITION, flying stabs seem to
> develop a lot of slop over
> time. ALSO, if it is a flying stab a little way up
> the vertical fin, you
> generate a bit more drag from the intersecting
> surfaces.
>
> I think it boils down to pure and simple preference.
> But for the purist,
> X-tail is the way to go.
>
> Personally I prefer V-tails.
>
> My 2c.
>
> Anker


=====
Paul Griebenow
AD5OF

HCR 74 Box 17
Ft Davis, TX 79734
(432) 249-0193

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Old Oct 04, 2003, 03:02 AM
Brian Chan
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n/a Posts
Re: Re: [RCSE] one more question for the experts

At 2:43 PM -0400 10/3/03, <xcfrmok@cox.net> wrote:
>IMHO, the lack of thin enough servos for the tail to remain aerod.
>gives this design a black eye. The recommended Volz stick up above
>the surface. They do provide "nifty" servo covers, but does the end
>justify the means. Obv. I am not a fan of this design.
>
> Bob
>>


The HS125 fits in the tail of the graphite just fine.

Brian
--
Brian Chan,
An Electric Airplane Junkie @ San Mateo.Ca.USA
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Old Oct 04, 2003, 03:02 AM
Brian Chan
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: Re: [RCSE] one more question for the experts

>Brian;
>
> We tried them and they also stood above the wing (or below) surface.
>Hitec is coming out with an ultra-thin servo for DHL wings, it can be seen
>at their web site. These might be better??
>
> Bob


Bob,

Are you referring to the HS-56 or something else?

The HS56 is 12 mm thick, but with smaller other two dimensions. The
HS125/5125 is 10mm thick.

I have no problem with the HS-125 in the tail of the D-Box Graphite.

Brian
--
Brian Chan,
An Electric Airplane Junkie @ San Mateo.Ca.USA
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Old Oct 05, 2003, 03:02 AM
Richard
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] one more question for the experts

Some clarification please. Know what a V tail is, and Conventional, but is
an X tail like on the bubble dancer, or really an X as in 2 V tails? I also
play with RC subs and one model offered an X tail option that was truly an X
shape.Better turns without roll or something, now I have to go look that up.

Richard Mertins



> Bill Johns wrote;
>
> " Which is fundamentally or technically the better design for a

sailplane
> as
> common to US TD competition: V-tail or Conventional / X-tail

configuration?
> "
>


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Old Oct 05, 2003, 03:02 AM
Andrew E. Mileski
Guest
n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] one more question for the experts

Richard wrote:
> Some clarification please. Know what a V tail is, and Conventional, but is
> an X tail like on the bubble dancer, or really an X as in 2 V tails? I also
> play with RC subs and one model offered an X tail option that was truly an X
> shape.Better turns without roll or something, now I have to go look that up.


X-tail = cross tail = cruciform tail = conventional tail

Writing X-tail lookes better +-tail

--
Andrew E. Mileski
Ottawa, Canada
http://isoar.ca/

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Old Oct 05, 2003, 03:02 AM
Ken and Teresa Lilja
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n/a Posts
Re: [RCSE] one more question for the experts

>From a full scale perspective:
Conventional tail would have the horizontal stabilizer come out the sides of the
fuselage.
X tail, cross tail and cruciform tail (as in the Christian symbol of the Cross)
would have the horizontal stabilizer come out of the vertical fin, possibly
favoring that order, top to bottom.
T tail would have the horizontal stabilizer mounted at the top of the vertical fin.
Ken Lilja




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