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Old Feb 12, 2013, 03:23 PM
Gopher huntin' stick jockey
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East Bethel, MN USA
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Originally Posted by ChopperJack View Post
Never store a fully-charged pack below 50 F. Doing so will damage it. Only packs that are at storage-charge can be stored below 50 F without damage.

From Hyperion:

LIPO CARE Batteries are best stored in a cool, dry environment (2~20 C or 37~68 F).
That is only when they're storage-charged. Read the rest of the info:

Temperature - For best performance and cycle life, your Hyperion G3 battery packs should have a resting temperature no lower than 10 C (50 F) at the beginning of a Flight, or beginning of Charging. Keep the batteries inside your vehicle or a warmer of some kind on very cold days, to insure best performance and life (this is true for any LiPo, not just G3). If you have any concerns about the temperature on cold days and you have Hyperion NET or DUO charger, you can use the TCS function set to 90% to help insure that the batteries do not suffer over-voltage condition due to the temperature.


Storage - Lipo should never be stored fully charged, or with less than 50% of capacity remaining. We strongly recommend Hyperion EOS chargers, as they have automatic STORE functions to insure that the packs are in the range of about 60%~70% capacity (3.78V~3.92V resting voltage per cell). After returning home for the day, simply use STORE MODE to achieve this automatically. Batteries are best stored in a cool, dry environment (2~20 C or 37~68 F).
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 03:56 PM
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Thanks for all the replies! Looks like I have kick started an opinon war.

Here's the thing - I don't go to a club or special flying park, which by its nature might involve a bit of planning, such as "I am going to fly this weekend". I only fly right here at home, and there is rarely any plan. It is dependent upon whether Mother Nature cooperates, and whether I feel well enough to do it. So very spur of the moment. If I had to decide to fly, then charge several batteries prior to being able to actually USE them, it would never happen.

In the merciless summer heat, I often will fly just before sunset on a whim IF the wind is cooperating by dying down as it sometimes does just before sunset. I have about 20 minutes to get out there and fly before the sun sets, or the B52 sized mosquitoes attack, once the temperature drops to something reasonable to be enjoyed. So I have for 5 years now kept my several different types of lipos at the ready, and occasionally charge them during long periods of non-use, such as winter.

I have had them wear out, fail to hold a charge, or puff, as expected, which I totally accept is going to happen. Nothing lasts forever. But usually the puffing had only happened in the summer when I was using them much more often. That's why I asked about puffing when sitting in storage.

It sounds to me like an ideal charger for my situation would 'exercise' the lipos, much like the maintenance chargers available for winter storage on batteries of motorcycles or tractors. Do they make something like that to charge, discharge, and recharge lipos, on some kind of schedule?

Aside from that, I would probably benefit from having a charger that I could use in winter to keep a storage charge on them, and then use my current chargers for spring, summer, and fall when I get to fly now and then.

What would be a good charger with the storage feature which:

A - is reasonably priced (not hundreds of dollars)
B - can charge SINGLE cell, 2S and 3S lipos.

I have 2 helis that use 1S lipos, and it is in fact a 1S lipo that started my conversation, so I would need to be able to put a storage charge on a 1S lipo with a JST connector. The others are for my Walkera 4#3, which have a totally different connector.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 04:16 PM
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East Bethel, MN USA
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Zoandar,

It's not an opinion war. It's simply a matter of chemistry. If you want to maximize the lifespan & performance of your LiPos, there is only one way to do it, and that is to follow the industry-standard recommendations as established by the chemists who designed them - as I suggested.

Exercising LiPos is not recommended, as it reduces their lifespan. It's best to just put a storage charge on them when you're not going to fly for more than a few days Also, never discharge them deeper than 80%, as that is the #1 cause of early pack failure. If you use modern, high-quality LiPos, you can charge them at 5c or higher with no reduction in lifespan or performance, so it only takes 8 minutes or so to top them off when they're storage-charged. It only takes about 12-15 minutes to charge from the 80% discharge point - which is the deepest you are ever supposed to discharge a LiPo. That makes it easy to fly without a schedule. It gets even better with a multi-channel charger. You can then fast-charge multiple packs of differing cell-counts simultaneously.

See my post from January for a few charger choices. Check out the ones for tighter budgets & smaller packs: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=6775

Joel
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 04:42 PM
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United States, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoandar View Post
Thanks for all the replies! Looks like I have kick started an opinon war.

Here's the thing - I don't go to a club or special flying park, which by its nature might involve a bit of planning, such as "I am going to fly this weekend". I only fly right here at home, and there is rarely any plan. It is dependent upon whether Mother Nature cooperates, and whether I feel well enough to do it. So very spur of the moment. If I had to decide to fly, then charge several batteries prior to being able to actually USE them, it would never happen.

In the merciless summer heat, I often will fly just before sunset on a whim IF the wind is cooperating by dying down as it sometimes does just before sunset. I have about 20 minutes to get out there and fly before the sun sets, or the B52 sized mosquitoes attack, once the temperature drops to something reasonable to be enjoyed. So I have for 5 years now kept my several different types of lipos at the ready, and occasionally charge them during long periods of non-use, such as winter.

I have had them wear out, fail to hold a charge, or puff, as expected, which I totally accept is going to happen. Nothing lasts forever. But usually the puffing had only happened in the summer when I was using them much more often. That's why I asked about puffing when sitting in storage.

It sounds to me like an ideal charger for my situation would 'exercise' the lipos, much like the maintenance chargers available for winter storage on batteries of motorcycles or tractors. Do they make something like that to charge, discharge, and recharge lipos, on some kind of schedule?

Aside from that, I would probably benefit from having a charger that I could use in winter to keep a storage charge on them, and then use my current chargers for spring, summer, and fall when I get to fly now and then.

What would be a good charger with the storage feature which:

A - is reasonably priced (not hundreds of dollars)
B - can charge SINGLE cell, 2S and 3S lipos.

I have 2 helis that use 1S lipos, and it is in fact a 1S lipo that started my conversation, so I would need to be able to put a storage charge on a 1S lipo with a JST connector. The others are for my Walkera 4#3, which have a totally different connector.
You just need a charger with the storage feature, you don't want to cycle a Lipo like you would a NiCad pack. We had a whole thread about this issue a while back and I have the same situation you have and I do the same thing with my batteries. Of course i was yelled at and called an idiot and other things but the fact is, we do have the right to personally accept a lower lifespan if we want to, and observation shows it isn't a huge difference.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 04:55 PM
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Ohio
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Originally Posted by ChopperJack View Post
Also, these small batteries will charge and read good voltage (4.2 V) but will not hold up under a load.
Unfortunately, I do not have any way to test the 1S batteries, aside from testing their voltage. Having a test feature on a charger that did 1S storage charge would be a nice feature, for sure. I would not mind paying a little more for that.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 05:08 PM
Gopher huntin' stick jockey
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East Bethel, MN USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoandar View Post
Unfortunately, I do not have any way to test the 1S batteries, aside from testing their voltage. Having a test feature on a charger that did 1S storage charge would be a nice feature, for sure. I would not mind paying a little more for that.
All of the chargers in the post I linked will do that and more, as will any decent hobby-grade charger.

Joel
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 05:11 PM
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Ohio
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Originally Posted by turboparker View Post
Zoandar,

It's not an opinion war. It's simply a matter of chemistry. If you want to maximize the lifespan & performance of your LiPos, there is only one way to do it, and that is to follow the industry-standard recommendations as established by the chemists who designed them - as I suggested.

Exercising LiPos is not recommended, as it reduces their lifespan. It's best to just put a storage charge on them when you're not going to fly for more than a few days Also, never discharge them deeper than 80%, as that is the #1 cause of early pack failure. If you use modern, high-quality LiPos, you can charge them at 5c or higher with no reduction in lifespan or performance, so it only takes 8 minutes or so to top them off when they're storage-charged. It only takes about 12-15 minutes to charge from the 80% discharge point - which is the deepest you are ever supposed to discharge a LiPo. That makes it easy to fly without a schedule. It gets even better with a multi-channel charger. You can then fast-charge multiple packs of differing cell-counts simultaneously.

See my post from January for a few charger choices. Check out the ones for tighter budgets & smaller packs: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=6775

Joel
I was just making a comment when I said 'opinion war'. No offense taken here, and I hope none taken by all of you.

I really appreciate all these suggestions, and value everyone's opinion. Thanks! I'll look into whatever suggestions are made. This time of year would be a good time for me to invest in a nice charger, as I am not currently flying, so not putting money into the helis right now.

I have always been accustomed to all the chargers I have (those for 2S packs which came with Esky Lama V4, or the 1S used by my Walkera 4#3 or the mQX) and the Dynamite Charger my LHS sold me for charging my 3S packs for the Blade 440, all taking pretty much an hour and sometimes longer to charge used lipos. On the 2S and 3S packs I use Lipo Alert monitoring devices and land as soon as they indicate it is time to do so. On the single S I use a timer. But it has always taken that long for the 'charged' LED to come on, or on the Dynamite, for the beeper to indicate full charge. The Esky chargers often take even longer than an hour to bring one of their stock 2S packs up to full charge.

If I could top them off in 8 minutes from a storage charge, that would be an acceptable option, especially for the 3S, because for that one when it is hot outside I have to acclimate the heli's tail gyro to the outdoor temperatures for 15 minutes anyway. I could be charging it then, if I could get them charged within that time frame. Being able to charge multiple lipos would also be a plus. Currently I have only dedicated single lipo chargers.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 05:12 PM
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Ohio
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Originally Posted by turboparker View Post
All of the chargers in the post I linked will do that and more, as will any decent hobby-grade charger.

Joel
I'm getting ready to look at those now. Thanks!!
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 05:29 PM
Gopher huntin' stick jockey
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East Bethel, MN USA
Joined Jul 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoandar View Post
.......If I could top them off in 8 minutes from a storage charge, that would be an acceptable option, especially for the 3S, because for that one when it is hot outside I have to acclimate the heli's tail gyro to the outdoor temperatures for 15 minutes anyway. I could be charging it then, if I could get them charged within that time frame. Being able to charge multiple lipos would also be a plus. Currently I have only dedicated single lipo chargers.
Just remember that you must buy packs that are designed for 5c or higher charging to do that. Eflite packs aren't designed for 5c charging, and many of the cheap 'bargain' packs that are advertised as being safe for 5c charging will have very short lifespans when repeatedly charged at 5c. I know that modern Hyperion & Thunder Power LiPos can be charged at 5c for hundreds of cycles with no reduction in performance. I usually get around 300 cycles or so at 5c charge from my Hyperion cells & packs before they start to fade away - which is what they rate them for. The new Thunder Power 65c packs are designed for 12c charging, and they last for 600 cycles before they start to fade away. That's 7-8 minutes to full-charge from the 80% discharge point, or just 3-4 minutes to full-charge from storage. I have nearly 300 cycles at 8-10c charge on a number of my TP 65c packs & they still put out the same power that they did just after break-in. Of course, you'll only get lifespans like those above if you always care for them properly. If you abuse the packs, you'll only get a fraction of that.

Joel
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 06:18 PM
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Ohio
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Originally Posted by turboparker View Post
Just remember that you must buy packs that are designed for 5c or higher charging to do that. Eflite packs aren't designed for 5c charging, and many of the cheap 'bargain' packs that are advertised as being safe for 5c charging will have very short lifespans when repeatedly charged at 5c.

Joel
Ah, the real meat of the issue! I need information pertinent to "stock" lipo maintenance here. I don't buy high performance lipos.

Thanks for pointing this out, as I was clearly headed for disappointment if assuming the above applied to MY lipos. So, back to taking an hour to charge, which means back to wanting to keep my lipos charged all the time as I have done for 5 years, accepting that their lifespan may be reduced in so doing.

As far as how much use this slightly puffed 1S mQX lipo has seen, I have logged 12 flights, and flown perhaps no more than half that in addition while not remembering to record it, . So less than 19 cycles since purchasing the mQX last Spring.

That's why I am puzzled. Typically I would be into my second summer of use before any of my previous Lipos puffed. Some, like the lowly Esky lipos for the Lama V4, have lasted 3 years, while keeping them fully charged, even over non use in winter months.

I am reading the manual for the TP610C, as the photo doesn't show any connections being labeled for 1S on that interface board with all the balance connectors on it. I want to see what they say about 1S packs.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
You just need a charger with the storage feature, you don't want to cycle a Lipo like you would a NiCad pack. We had a whole thread about this issue a while back and I have the same situation you have and I do the same thing with my batteries. Of course i was yelled at and called an idiot and other things but the fact is, we do have the right to personally accept a lower lifespan if we want to, and observation shows it isn't a huge difference.
Thanks, Jasmine. It's looking that way. Being able to charge them in minutes would be nice, but I am not going to replace them all at considerable expense just so I can do that.

Everything I have ever read about battery charging in general from battery manufacturers has always told me that fast charging is hard on a battery and shortens its lifespan. I am happy getting 2-3 seasons out of a lipo. Especially because I do buy the low priced lipos. I think I'll look for a charger that can do 1-3S with features for testing and storage charge, which I can use over the winter (now) for my outdoor heli batteries. But for the 1S (mQX and 4#3) I do fly those anytime indoors, to keep from losing what few "skills" I have. So those need to be kept charged all the time.

Still, if I am investing in a new charger, I'd like it to have the ability to put a storage charge on those 1S as well in case I need to do that for some reason.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 06:39 PM
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The TP610C manual never really mentions how to charge a 1S with it. Does it come with adapters for various connector types, or would I have to make those myself?
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 06:45 PM
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Zoandar,

Fast charging LiPos with modern chemistries, such as Hyperion & Thunder Power (and others), doesn't reduce their lifespan at all - if done with an accurate charger. That was true many years ago, but it hasn't been true for the last 4 years or so with the higher-quality LiPos that use modern chemistry in their cells.

Regarding the TP610 (and other hobby-grade balance-chargers) - you don't use the balance board when charging single-cell Lipos. They just plug directly into the main +/- charge jack. Hobby-grade chargers don't come with the adapters for the various packs because there are simply too many different connectors in use. They typically come with a main charge cable that plugs into the banana jacks of the charger, but the user is expected to solder on the connector of his/her choice. Alternatively you can also make your own charge cables or buy pre-made cables from any LHS or online hobby shop. I make up charge cables with Deans connectors on the end & then make adapter cables for my various LiPos that plug into the main charge cables. You can also get a charge harness so that you can charge a number of single cells in parallel. As long as the cells are in similar states of health & charge, you can safely charge them in parallel with no problems. There are many other hobby-grade chargers that will also work. If your budget allows, that 4-channel HiTec would be an excellent choice. You could then get the same fast-charging benefits of the high-C packs by charging 4 cells or packs at once at 1c, or charging a few in parallel on each channel simultaneously at 1c.

Joel
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 08:21 PM
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United States, AZ, Mesa
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Originally Posted by Zoandar View Post
Thanks, Jasmine. It's looking that way. Being able to charge them in minutes would be nice, but I am not going to replace them all at considerable expense just so I can do that.

Everything I have ever read about battery charging in general from battery manufacturers has always told me that fast charging is hard on a battery and shortens its lifespan. I am happy getting 2-3 seasons out of a lipo. Especially because I do buy the low priced lipos. I think I'll look for a charger that can do 1-3S with features for testing and storage charge, which I can use over the winter (now) for my outdoor heli batteries. But for the 1S (mQX and 4#3) I do fly those anytime indoors, to keep from losing what few "skills" I have. So those need to be kept charged all the time.

Still, if I am investing in a new charger, I'd like it to have the ability to put a storage charge on those 1S as well in case I need to do that for some reason.
Fast charging does reduce the lifetime, but you can't trickle charge every time. Charging at 1C from storage charge should take 30 minutes, but i charge my good quality batteries at about 3C usually and it takes about 15-20 minutes from full dead.

The thing is, you really need a good quality multi-chemistry charger just for the convenience of only needing one charger and one set of cords. They also typically are better quality and less likely to put a funky charge on a multi-cell pack, which is something the cheap chargers do a lot.

Charge rates are determined by the battery itself, but can be limited by the charger, so be sure to check the wattage of a charger before buying, as that can result on the actual amp limit being lower. For example, charging a three cell pack at ten amps uses 126 Watts, which is over the 80 watt limit of many cheaper chargers.
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Old Feb 12, 2013, 09:23 PM
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Ohio
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Originally Posted by turboparker View Post
Zoandar,

Fast charging LiPos with modern chemistries, such as Hyperion & Thunder Power (and others), doesn't reduce their lifespan at all - if done with an accurate charger. That was true many years ago, but it hasn't been true for the last 4 years or so with the higher-quality LiPos that use modern chemistry in their cells.

Regarding the TP610 (and other hobby-grade balance-chargers) - you don't use the balance board when charging single-cell Lipos. They just plug directly into the main +/- charge jack. Hobby-grade chargers don't come with the adapters for the various packs because there are simply too many different connectors in use. They typically come with a main charge cable that plugs into the banana jacks of the charger, but the user is expected to solder on the connector of his/her choice. Alternatively you can also make your own charge cables or buy pre-made cables from any LHS or online hobby shop. I make up charge cables with Deans connectors on the end & then make adapter cables for my various LiPos that plug into the main charge cables. You can also get a charge harness so that you can charge a number of single cells in parallel. As long as the cells are in similar states of health & charge, you can safely charge them in parallel with no problems. There are many other hobby-grade chargers that will also work. If your budget allows, that 4-channel HiTec would be an excellent choice. You could then get the same fast-charging benefits of the high-C packs by charging 4 cells or packs at once at 1c, or charging a few in parallel on each channel simultaneously at 1c.

Joel
I've ruled out the TP610 because nowhere in their user manual is the word "storage". So apparently it can't do a storage charge function. I found another similar charger that also lacks mentioning storage in its manual. Currently I am looking at the Eflite Celectra 200W. Their manual is pretty much crammed into 2 pages of single sheet, so it will take a bit to browse through it. But at least the word storage is in there 3 or 4 times. Any opinions on this model?

Edit - This model impresses me right from the start. It comes with an AC power supply, and several adapter cables for different batteries, and has both storage charge function and discharge (which I guess one would need if you had a fully charged lipo that you decided to change to the level of a storage charge, right?). Not bad for the price, at Horizon.

However, for $5 more I can get the Hitec X4 (recommended above) from Amazon Prime. I read its manual too, and I have to think both these models are made by the same people, because their display functions and operating instructions are virtually identical. Hitec doesn't include an assortment of cables, but I can make whatever I need. No one seems to provide the tiny connector used on the Walkera 4#3 battery anyway, so I'll have to get some of those. To be able to charge 4 different lipos simultaneously is well worth having to make some cables. I found an interesting cable available on Amazon that has multiple output connectors of different styles, sort of a universal adapter (but still nothing for the 4#3 battery).
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Last edited by Zoandar; Feb 12, 2013 at 10:29 PM. Reason: Added information
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