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Old Jan 21, 2013, 05:47 AM
Life begins at transition
Australia, WA, Perth
Joined May 2007
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And only one turned? Why wouldn't the other?

(I'll give you a clue - see and avoid doesn't work at M0.8!)
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 05:57 AM
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United States, AZ, Tucson
Joined Mar 2012
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ITS MONDAY! time for my SU35 to come out of hiding! its a holiday today so its coming UPS
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 06:53 AM
Flying Hazard
SU-4ever's Avatar
Spain
Joined May 2006
2,267 Posts
I say +1 for Odysis.

You know that 2 aircraft are probably 9km+ high so that apparently agressive turn can actually be very smooth. Probably the pilots get bored and love to make sharper turns just for the thrill of it
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 07:47 AM
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Australia, VIC, Melbourne
Joined Nov 2006
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Only one acted because only the plane coming in from the side had visual, and neither knew it was actually occuring before that quite 'close' moment. So he probably finally saw them and went "holy crap!!" and veered away before even getting to talk to flight control again! eg Even if that process was only seconds... to say, maybe 10secs. Meanwhile the other plane was oblivious to anything at all - they would never see him coming at the 7 or 8 o'clock direction.
Thus why only one would ever deviate.
After the diversion, then they call it in.... "W.T.F ATC!!!?"

The ATC were not the ones calling the deviation. Otherwise it would have been seen sooner - because they see it on radar, which means it would be seen long before they were truly close - and then both would be told appropriate actions. (and the trail evidence shows that was not the case, seeing only one acted).

It didn't have to be 100ft away... it could be a lot further of course. Even 1000ft or more. It is still a 'close call' in aircraft terms. Even if they were on slightly different altitudes.... but they wouldn't have been because they would have both been called into the same corridor and altitude, otherwise they wouldn't have even been anywhere near each other at all.
The only other way would be if one (the approaching one most likely) was well out of the area it was even meant to be in.
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 09:27 AM
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The closer inspection has begun!
VID00446 (4 min 4 sec)
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 10:28 AM
Houston. .we have a problem.
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Sutton Coldfield, UK
Joined Aug 2008
606 Posts
Some extremely BOLD assumptions being made about the contrails, and catastrophic events that were only narrowly avoided by one of the pilots, after he was visual with the other aircraft and had to take avoiding action! Maybe he was that shaken by the encounter, he died at the controls, as after the avoiding manouver, he never regained his original course?

Airliners on reciprocal tracks at high altitudes can cross over at vertical separations of 1000 feet. It's not a "close call", it's a normal occurrence.

As has already been mentioned, most TCAS systems give a climb or descent command to avoid collision (there are some more modern systems that give turns, but they aren't widely spread amongst operators), and after the avoiding manouver, the aircraft regains it's original flight level or track. This aircraft continued on it's new course, which would imply a course correction due to the following:

Airliners do not fly in straight lines between their departure and arrival points. Airways are not infinitely continuous. They start, end and diverge/converge, usually over a VOR. It's not unusual to see a contrail with a sudden "bend" in it, as the aircraft changes course, either as a planned part of the route, or as a heading change after a request to ATC to shorten the route or "cut a corner".

Looks like a normal day at work to me. I must see 20 or 30 of these type scenarios on each sector.

Besides, those contrails could easily be 5000 feet apart vertically. . . .

Just my humble opinion.
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 11:25 AM
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United States, CA, San Diego
Joined Jan 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterVRC View Post
Only one acted because only the plane coming in from the side had visual, and neither knew it was actually occuring before that quite 'close' moment. So he probably finally saw them and went "holy crap!!" and veered away before even getting to talk to flight control again! eg Even if that process was only seconds... to say, maybe 10secs. Meanwhile the other plane was oblivious to anything at all - they would never see him coming at the 7 or 8 o'clock direction.
Thus why only one would ever deviate.
After the diversion, then they call it in.... "W.T.F ATC!!!?"

The ATC were not the ones calling the deviation. Otherwise it would have been seen sooner - because they see it on radar, which means it would be seen long before they were truly close - and then both would be told appropriate actions. (and the trail evidence shows that was not the case, seeing only one acted).

It didn't have to be 100ft away... it could be a lot further of course. Even 1000ft or more. It is still a 'close call' in aircraft terms. Even if they were on slightly different altitudes.... but they wouldn't have been because they would have both been called into the same corridor and altitude, otherwise they wouldn't have even been anywhere near each other at all.
The only other way would be if one (the approaching one most likely) was well out of the area it was even meant to be in.
Yeah Peter I agree-- very well said!
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 11:28 AM
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United States, CA, San Diego
Joined Jan 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOX ONE! View Post
Some extremely BOLD assumptions being made about the contrails, and catastrophic events that were only narrowly avoided by one of the pilots, after he was visual with the other aircraft and had to take avoiding action! Maybe he was that shaken by the encounter, he died at the controls, as after the avoiding manouver, he never regained his original course?

Airliners on reciprocal tracks at high altitudes can cross over at vertical separations of 1000 feet. It's not a "close call", it's a normal occurrence.

As has already been mentioned, most TCAS systems give a climb or descent command to avoid collision (there are some more modern systems that give turns, but they aren't widely spread amongst operators), and after the avoiding manouver, the aircraft regains it's original flight level or track. This aircraft continued on it's new course, which would imply a course correction due to the following:

Airliners do not fly in straight lines between their departure and arrival points. Airways are not infinitely continuous. They start, end and diverge/converge, usually over a VOR. It's not unusual to see a contrail with a sudden "bend" in it, as the aircraft changes course, either as a planned part of the route, or as a heading change after a request to ATC to shorten the route or "cut a corner".

Looks like a normal day at work to me. I must see 20 or 30 of these type scenarios on each sector.

Besides, those contrails could easily be 5000 feet apart vertically. . . .

Just my humble opinion.
Just be fair here-- this pic was taken at high altitude-- and looking almost right at the plane, if this was seen at ground level I bet that trail would be a much smoother arc-- you just can't see from that perspective
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 11:29 AM
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United States, CA, San Diego
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Originally Posted by goldsworthy View Post
ITS MONDAY! time for my SU35 to come out of hiding! its a holiday today so its coming UPS

Its about time your 35 'arrived' Gold !!
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 11:36 AM
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United States, CA, San Diego
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Originally Posted by Odysis View Post
And only one turned? Why wouldn't the other?

(I'll give you a clue - see and avoid doesn't work at M0.8!)
Could be the sun- it was in the south west and most likely the plane on right was right in the blind spot- just my thought. ATC DO make errors, maybe this was one of those incidents?
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 11:38 AM
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United States, AZ, Tucson
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SU35 build video question of the day!-
VID00449 (0 min 34 sec)
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by goldsworthy View Post
SU35 build video question of the day!- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAxt5...ature=youtu.be
Gold the ONLY parts glued on the Su35 are the tail cone, the nose cone, and the 2 fins under the vert stabs, the 2 part supplied epoxy will work fine on those parts, the servo covers and the 2 panel covers I recommend using a contact like adhesive so its easy to remove if needed
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 11:51 AM
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United States, CA, San Diego
Joined Jan 2011
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Originally Posted by goldsworthy View Post
SU35 build video question of the day!- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAxt5...ature=youtu.be
I have the same CS Evotite from HK-- its good, and this tube of glue(similar to contact) its great on parts mentioned like panel covers and servo covers which may need to be removed
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 12:05 PM
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VID00448 (0 min 52 sec)
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 12:44 PM
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United States, NM, Clovis
Joined Oct 2011
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Gold, you would place the glue on the top as that is the light side. You may want to put a line on the cones with a sharpee and spin the shaft and cones with nothing on it to make sure it is true. If the line always stops in the exact same spot there may be a heavy side on shaft/cones. I have that exact balancer and the shaft/cones were out of balance themselves.
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