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Old Jan 03, 2012, 08:10 PM
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Canberra Australia
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I was looking at this plane (currently flying the Freewing F-16), but all the talk on this thread is pretty baffling. It sounds like a plane for experienced electricians and mathematicians only?

I'm now flying the F-16 with vector thrust permanently on. Without vector, it was difficult to rotate and I had to constantly bend the front nose wire to give the maximum nose-up stance. With vectored thrust (and up elevator/thrust), its max ground speed is slower, but it will rotate more easily. Of course, landing with vectored thrust on can be a a bit tricky, but at least the plane can be slowed right up.

It is probably an ignorant question, but why not use vectored thrust on take-off to rotate it quicker?
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Old Jan 03, 2012, 08:45 PM
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It's not enough to rotate quicker ... you need to build up sufficient speed to generate enough lift to keep it in the air and not go into high alpha stall, though if you have good 3-D skills, that might not be so bad after all. The key is judicious use (e.g. not full deflection on roll out).
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Old Jan 03, 2012, 09:16 PM
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No reason for it not to be on on take off but the roll out still has to follow some basics. The ground speed has to be sufficient for the wing to fly the system. Too, redirecting thrust reduces forward acceleration for some who pitch early and only delay reaching ROG velocity in doing so.

The pitch authority with TV on does definitely increase rotational force if you are just trying to get the nose up but if the wings sit in negative attitude the faster the aircraft goes forward the greater the down force until pressure builds under the wing in ground effect. So its not optimal to just do one thing and forget the others.
This is where for me Nose heavy doesn't work. This only holds the nose down more, requires more pitch input to rotate and dampens precision.

So neutral cg, the wings AR on the wheels needs to be sufficient to allow lift with forward motion, you need to achieve ROG speed, basically a little more speed than doing a level pass, before you pull back on the sticks unless you have a very high TWR thrust to weight ratio.

Still the nose not lifting and lack of in flight stability are two different things. All the Freewing models stick to the ground with or without cheats, they jump as a result but they for the most part all flew very stable especially with the TV on.
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Old Jan 03, 2012, 11:41 PM
To drive or to fly......BOTH!!
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V8, Max pointed me to this thread. You didn't tell you actually maidened the bird . sorry to hear about the scare but at least you got off better than me on the Hellcat . Anyhow few questions for ya. If you want give me a buzz to answer them. You might have answered them already but just trying to help a fellow flyer out. I will shoot you a PM out of courtesy for the other thread members.

Jason
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 08:18 AM
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Ya thanks Max,

Jay thanks for the interest, we'll dial this baby out and have her in the air... (fingers crossed)!!!
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 11:05 AM
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FresnoJay: What were the drive setup that you were talking about? Do you have a link or supplier...
I'm still looking at various drive setups that gives more attention to thrust than efflux, low amps than hot system.
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 03:14 PM
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I've found the F-16 to be very stable on vectored thrust. In fact, when in a harrier or other high nose attitude it seems to want to balance on the thrust and you have to deliberately push it off. It is certainly easy to end up vertical after a vectored take-off (and with no forward motion), but it slips back into forward flight (eg zero to flight speed with no loss of altitude) very easily as the elevator is eased off.

I agree that nose heavy and negative angle of wing attack on take-off make it harder to rotate.
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 07:35 PM
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Mercer,

Don't let all the scientist talk fool ya, its a beautiful plane & once I get her sorted out im sure she fly's just as good as euro & f18
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 08:09 PM
To drive or to fly......BOTH!!
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Max, The ones on the mind are the ones I listed in the other thread. Dont want to get busted for cross posting. But the Meteor motor on 5S I think of the 2 will honestly give me the best bang for the buck. Plus it consumes less current for more output or speed and thrust. Mind you I have not tested it to have hard numbers to give but in comparison the 5S has more potential imho. I will more than likely get the parts from Hobby Partz as they have a various was to purchase. Meaning....motor....motor/fan/esc...etc. For the price you really cant go wrong. Complete power set for $50 and it works well.

Jason
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FresnoJay View Post
Max, The ones on the mind are the ones I listed in the other thread. Dont want to get busted for cross posting.
Feel free to add a link to specific relevant posts in other threads, e.g. setups, suppliers as statements of fact.
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Old Jan 05, 2012, 12:44 AM
To drive or to fly......BOTH!!
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Just dont wanna get blasted is all . But here you are:

1. This is the entire power package: http://www.hobbypartz.com/60p-70mm-edf-combo.html

2. Here is the motor alone: http://www.hobbypartz.com/60p-014-bm2826-kv3000.html

3. Here is the ESC alone: http://www.hobbypartz.com/60p-dye-1015-60a-esc.html

These are proven and I use them in 2 different planes on 5S with no separate BEC. But with this bird I would use one due to number of servos.

Jason
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Old Jan 05, 2012, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FresnoJay View Post
Just dont wanna get blasted is all . But here you are:

1. This is the entire power package: http://www.hobbypartz.com/60p-70mm-edf-combo.html

2. Here is the motor alone: http://www.hobbypartz.com/60p-014-bm2826-kv3000.html

3. Here is the ESC alone: http://www.hobbypartz.com/60p-dye-1015-60a-esc.html

These are proven and I use them in 2 different planes on 5S with no separate BEC. But with this bird I would use one due to number of servos.

Jason
Thanks J. Mine says it should be available for pickup today so the first thing I really wanted to do is find the duct choke point area and see if this will actually accomodate 80mm edfs. It will be easy to mount a Eflite 83mm OD EDF and the aft can easily be widened to take it. But the intake area and a dependence on cheats is my only concern with it.

But I'll start with 70s so thanks for those links.
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Old Jan 05, 2012, 09:02 AM
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FresnoJay, you wouldn't happen to know how many watts that power package listed above produces on 5s do you?

Can someone tell me again - in regards to the ESC - is it better to extend the battery leads or the motor leads?
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Old Jan 05, 2012, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by JGuilty13 View Post
Can someone tell me again - in regards to the ESC - is it better to extend the battery leads or the motor leads?
It's kinda both now. There is a long CC thread that debated this and CC seemed to agree reversing the long time understanding and instead going slightly longer on the motor side has merits. Either way both sides needs to stay below 300mm. If you are going longer on the battery side, then up the ESC's specs. The Caps and FETs have to deal with more line load issues as you start getting past a foot and this can be fixed by going with a larger capacity ESC, heavier gauge wire or sometimes just heavier bullet connectors. On the motor side this too shouldn't exceed 300mm but more importantly recent comments say to be conscious of keeping the three wires of equal length so as not to change the ESCs ability to read the motors timing by having different ohms on one of the 3 lines.
This is just general info I've gleaned from the many threads some I have yet to see real world testing to prove one thing over the other but the changing theories hints to me that things happen, we try one thing that seems to solve the issue but we actually don't know what's actually the cause or is happening.

If to keep the ESC under 300mm on either side places the ESC in the middle in a non-ventilated area, I don't prefer of recommend but you then increase the ESC capacity again to deal with the heat. So if 50amps is needed go with an 80amp ESC.

It'll take a while for me to find the references but as I come across them I'll pm them to you.
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Old Jan 05, 2012, 09:58 AM
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Max, I wish I could credit you an "RCG" token or something! You have a lot of knowledge on these forums. Much appreciated.
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