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Old Jan 10, 2013, 12:55 AM
Entropy is happening!
Jim.Thompson's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timbuck View Post
Yep... The 2nd one.
Also just to help stop any print though you could chuck a layer of veil on the out side , would add any weight worth mentioning.

Tim
Excellent Tim! Thanks for that confirmation. I am not good at making such decisions, not done enough of this form of construction to be confident enough.

Just for future building, what kind of timber veneer are you and Kevin et. al. using for the skin core?
I can buy locally some pine and a few different Aussie hardwoods.
I will use veneer for my next heavy build. I'm sort of thinking Pine, but would like your thoughts etc.

Jim.
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 02:49 PM
Toni
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Hey Tim,

thanks for your compliment. Yes, there are a great joy to have a friend like Dirk. And Thomas is very busy with her Productions.

@Simon: Also thanks for your opinion.

So, Flo and I want to go to Velika Planina this year. It wouldnīt nice to meet you on this Spot to take DS. We are drive only 400 kmīs.

What did yo think about?

greats, Toni
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 03:12 PM
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Latest project..

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...1781085&page=6
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Old Jan 10, 2013, 11:53 PM
flo
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Cool Tim!

Little bit hard to see the thingy in the air?
36 seems awfully small - even for me ( i absolutely love small planes)

@ Jim
I would always use a 49 gr. Interglass FG as an outer layer .
This helps with print-through and is fine enough for a good surface. it handles also very good - easy to work with.
Then i would throw away all kind of 70-160 gr. of FG you have as these tend to be very loosely woven. (Only exeption is the 105 gr. Interglass which is a dream when it comes to following multiple curves.)
The open weave usually makes the glass "shifty" and hard to handle, on top of that it does not give a good and even thickness. (seen from side there are lots off hills and valleys).
In my opinion it is far more sensible to use 49 gr. glass only. If needet just make it 2...5 layers.
each layer of it will be easy to handle, the third and 5th (6th) usually get layed dry (without prior apl, of ep) just soaking from the layers underneath. Makes a nice and light layup.
Also multiple layers of thin fg will always be stronger than fewer layers of heavy ones. Asuming same weight per m2.

Helps saveing cost (bulk buying) and storing also

I do not know the sice/span of your plank - but then i estimate 86 gr. of carbon beeing a little weak.
Using Biax carbon might be an option costwise and it can be had in lots of different weights ( 110, 140 200, 300 gr.). handles nicely and no loss due cutting of the roll.
compare yours with Tonis plank on the last page . 140 gr carbon all over and a 140 gr. D-box. This one turned out just awsome. And is still relatively light.
his last one with a single layer of 200 gr. was very nice too.

Just food for thought.

Greets

flo
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb.wagner View Post
Hey Tim,


@Simon: Also thanks for your opinion.

So, Flo and I want to go to Velika Planina this year. It wouldnīt nice to meet you on this Spot to take DS. We are drive only 400 kmīs.

What did yo think about?

greats, Toni
Cool!

There is my mail: simon_ogrinec@hotmail.com
Notice me when you want to come.
This year we will have f3f-easy league on Velika Planina too


Regards Simon
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 11:06 AM
Toni
Joined Oct 2011
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Very good Job Tim,

but you must have eyes like a Eagle. Too fast by these size.

So, Flo have me infectet to fly little Wings. Now I love it also.

@ Simon:
Thanks, I notice you when we would come.

Toni
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 03:49 PM
Entropy is happening!
Jim.Thompson's Avatar
Australia, NSW, Bellingen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flo View Post
Cool Tim!

..............................Then i would throw away all kind of 70-160 gr. of FG you have as these tend to be very loosely woven. (Only exeption is the 105 gr. Interglass which is a dream when it comes to follwoing multiple curves.)
.............................................flo
Flo,

Wow, that sounds extreme! "All kinds?". My favourite fabric is a close woven 100 gsm plain weave glass cloth. I am hoping my supplier has more of it, plenty more, as I will be odering some.

Thanks for the tip about the 50 gsm glass cloth though. I like that idea.
We amateur modellers have to strive to keep stock down to a minimum etc.

Jim.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 04:03 PM
flo
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Originally Posted by Jim.Thompson View Post
Flo,

Wow, that sounds extreme! "All kinds?". My favourite fabric is a close woven 100 gsm plain weave glass cloth. I am hoping my supplier has more of it, plenty more, as I will be odering some.

Thanks for the tip about the 50 gsm glass cloth though. I like that idea.
We amateur modellers have to strive to keep stock down to a minimum etc.

Jim.

Well , i guess your 100gr. is the mentioned 105 gr.
If not bought from the manufactuerer, resellers usually are not too precise when it comes to cloth weights.
Seen C163 sold as 158, 160, 165, 168 gr. and all of them by the same mfg?
As if ..... they would go through such a trouble.
Sometimes the cloth gets ...hmmm.. my english... lets call it sprayed with 3M or such like to stop it shifting, then cloth-weight will differe by aprox 3gr.
But again this fact would be mentioned in the ad`s.


Absolute agree on the 100 (105) - my favorite to work with.

greets

flo
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 04:37 PM
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I'd hazard a guess that weaves may be different between different manufacturers.

I recall a control line guy comparing a couple of glass cloths, and saying that he preferred the heavier one because the final result was lighter. The lighter cloth needed more epoxy and filler.
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 05:37 PM
flo
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Of course.


i was referring to a fabric of the same mfg sold by different resellers. Written language - easy to miss preciseness.

But why should you need more ep for lighter cloth.
a ratio of 50/50 will be the same amount of glass and fiber no matter which cloth you use.

Thicker cloth on the other hand has more "ondulation" (sorry german expression) , meaning the fibbers have to change direction more than with thinner weaves.
As we know fibers are strong only in one direction. which is lenghwise- pull.
Imagine woven into a fabric of say 0,5mm thickness (numbers just for example) the fiber sorta makes a wave of 0,5mm, compared to a much thinner fabric of 0,2mm.
The thinner fabric makes for a more "straight" (remember- pull) fiber - thus it is stronger once you take an equal amount of fg per sqm.

greets

flo
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Old Jan 11, 2013, 09:36 PM
Entropy is happening!
Jim.Thompson's Avatar
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Interglass.

That's all good flo.
What does "Interglass" mean? I have never struck it before.

I like your German word: "ondulation". It's meaning is clear.

Jim.
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Old Jan 12, 2013, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by flo View Post
But why should you need more ep for lighter cloth.
As I understood it in that particular case, the lighter cloth had looser weave: more empty space between fibers.
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Old Jan 12, 2013, 01:46 PM
flo
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Ok, Perttime
quite contrary to most opinions i have heard.
But then everybody has his/her own experience.
Ymmv i guess is the right term.

@Jim
sorry,
Interglass is just a fg-mfg.
I like their producs quite a lot as they saturate nicely. Usually they call them like "Interglass 91121??" and suchlike. As nobody remembers the numbers without getting confused most people here refere to them as "the 105 Interglass" - for not mixing them up with a cloth of same style of a different mfg.
Have not thought about the fact that i am comunicating arount the world and you are not used to some of my "terms".
I have to apologise.

greets

flo
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Old Jan 12, 2013, 03:55 PM
Entropy is happening!
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Close weave fabrics / Loose weave fabrics.

Got it flo. All's well.

Just a few thoughts about fabrics. I do like the close weave ones like you describe. However, (this is just pure conjecture), would not the close weave cloths have more "ondulations" as described in your German lexicon? It would seem to me that the open weave ones would, conversely, have less due to the longer wave length in the warp/weft wave shape.
Also, I'm speculating that the open weave cloths are quite satisfactory for applications where it can be hard rolled with a composite roller. When doing so, the fibres can be visually seen to flatten. The spaces between the warp and weft will close up progressively.
Where this is not possible, as in "in mould wet out" situations not accessible with a hard roller, the close weave cloths would be more suitable due to less epoxy between the warp/weft than the loose woven cloths. Does this make sense?
Just to clarify, I do not claim to know; this is just speculation from my observation and limited experience. More of a question than a statement.

Jim.

Jim.
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Old Jan 13, 2013, 02:49 AM
flo
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Hi Jim,
im no expert either, but your assumptions make sense.
Would explain why the mentioned Person had more succes with the more heavy cloth.

You are absolutely right on the 105 glass.
It is not the strongest for its weight - but it follows contours the best .
Which is just what we need sometimes.
On ondulation:
A direct comparison will always be hard to be fair.
Saying a tight weave .. totally neglegts the fact of weight/m2.
So the ondulation of a 100gr fabric will be more than on a 49 gr.
But lets compare 3 layers of 105 to your average 280 gr as seen in most serial fuses of "Alpina" style ( this is just for you to know which kind of fuses we talk about).
Each layer of 105 is much thinner as the single 280 as the fabric is much thinner to start with. So the fabric in each layer will be "straighter" than the heavy ones.
And this is for the really tight 105 but both not hard rolled.
See what i aim for?
Guess it is down to specific application.

Still stand to it:
Multiple layers of 50 gr. glass are much more fun to work with than all of the heavy cloth i have worked with.
(flat surfaces like wings, on fuses 105 gr.)

I Guess the discussion about ondulation is irrelevant for us modell builders- but handling is not.
That is where the lightly wooven heavy cloth really loses out. It is all shifty, generally awfull - in my opinion.

greets

flo
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