|Feb 14, 2013, 01:12 AM|
United States, NC, Lexington
Joined Jan 2013
Turbo Ace Quad users.
I have created a FREE photo Gallery for the Turbo Ace Cummunity.
Gallery Project's portfolio of intuitive photo, video and audio sharing web application solutions.
I hope this helps the Turbo Ace community as much as you have helped me.
VidsForU is up and running and waiting on your Videos and photos ...
|Feb 14, 2013, 01:22 AM|
Thanks.Two obvious problems with the landing: 1. Came in hot 2. Came in high and the plastic I put on the belly makes it slide forever on concrete.
I just upgraded the iOSD to the lastest version and was disappointed.. No GPS logging, rudimentary flight logging, and OSD is just barely modiable.. you can only shift what they give you in a bit. Although far cheaper than the WK-M, these other flight controllers have some really cool capabilities still not found in the WK Groundstation:
The OSD of this is superb and insanely customizable. I like mine minimalistic.
Flight planning, waypoints, and photogrammetry are way beyond WK-M. The minimOSD I use on this is also highly programmable and comes with a nice programming interface.
Common' DJI.. hurry up and catch up.
|Feb 14, 2013, 12:35 PM|
United States, PA, Norristown
Joined May 2012
Man I would love to get together with Kerbob and Bat to build a joint project, it would be insane what we come up with.
Thanks for the ardupilot review kerbob I have always been curious about those FC's and setups. They seem more hands-on during installation but much more customizable.
After hearing the testimonials from you guys about wow I will retract my previous statements about the company and give them another shot at taking part in our x830-x88 community. I would like to request from them a hexa frame though or at least a hexa hub that will work with the existing x830 aluminum arms and motors, I'll do the rest.
Kerbob- Dragonlabs equipment is close to the top of the line that you can get, it's pricey but well worth the reliability it has. I have heard of the Dragonlink having interference problems when reaching near max range on it and in order to push the limits of range 30+km you need to add extra filters to your video rx/dragonlink tx. But for anything below 30+km dragonlink is the champion. I think the only other system that comes close is rangelink and rvosd.
There are so many flight controllers/osds/Long range UHF systems out there that it's improbable that we would get to use them all through our hobby lifespan, but here is a list of what I have experience with in case anyone has questions.
Chainlink Dare UHF longrange system(skywalker)
Dragonlink UHF longrange system(quad copters and future skywalker&x8 delta wing)
Dragon OSD(have not used it yet but have one in the workshop for the next skywalker)
Skylark tiny osd(I have two of these for both of my quads, exellent basic osd for any light application)
Hornet Osd-Feiyutech-(pretty good osd, also a basic osd and heavier then most because of it's metal rigid casing but it's reliable and does the job, This one is featured in my skywalker videos on youtube)
FY31AP-Feiyutech- (This is a really good flight control system for a fixed wing and I have had zero issues with this unit and it's autopilot/gps. I have two of these.)
Xaircraft S series(really good low power flight controller that offers simple attitude hold and can be upgraded with gps/compass if the user can find the parts, I use it for a reliable sporty flight control system)
Xaircraft P series( much like the S series but this one has more bugs involved, it's difficult to get it working correctly with the P series gps/compass but once done right it's a solid FC for the most part)
DJI Naza(most reliable multirotor flight controller out there right now and the most forgiving to lack of knowledge for those entry level hobbiest, Learn how to tune it and it can be enhanced to a mid-level flight controller with some interesting features)
Futaba 10cap(72 mhz) I love this radio, I got this for flying my skywalker after I had learned to parkfly on a spektrum. I started by using it's stock 72 mhz module and it got me to 2km without any problem, I then swapped it out for the chainlink dare uhf system and have routinely flown 10+km without problems. This radio is nice because you can swap out the modules all you want and it's simple to use and not gigantic in your hands.
Futaba T12FGA- This is my big daddy of radios, It's got 12 fully functional channels(bart needed this) with a 2.4ghz fasst module. This radio is also capable of streaming 12 ppm channels out of the trainer port and this is useful for those UHF longrange systems, most people dont need 12 channels but it's handy regardless and every switch on this radio is 3 possition!
Spektrum dx7s- This is my LOS radio, I use this on every plane/multi/heli that I get in the begining stages of learning how to and getting used to flying them within the limits of my eyesight. I have put so many hours on this radio and have 3 spektrum rx's that I consistantly swap out between various different aircraft. It's bind and fly and ease of swapping modles makes it ideal for taking a handful of toys to the field and just sitting there all day flying around. This radio is not for long range flying or out of LOS flying, I would not trust this or any 2.4ghz radio system beyond LOS although I have gotten BART to 1.5km away with 2.4ghz futaba that was because it was a range test and I trusted the failsafes.
This is the equipment I use and have knowledge in, I think my purchases were pretty well done and I have no regrets on what units I have installed on my aircraft to this date, Of coarse as time goes on and more flight hours are logged I'm sure issues will arise and some units will break down sooner then others.
|Feb 14, 2013, 04:57 PM|
Nice Vids Kerbob,
I too use the Flight planning GCS for my copter and love the easy screen operation.
I have watched the APM2 and now the APM2.5 but never bought them due to so much conflict on thread and not knowing if I would get support if needed. I guess many people left and went to the AutoQuad 6 which I have been watching closely but they are having issues with copters just stopping in mid flight Still got a few bugs to work out One day I will find a new FC to replace my aging S-series but not yet.
I don't know why WK-M is not making upgrades to the GCS and or making it possible to use other GCS programs such as FP, HK and others. This would really give a boost to the system and sales. Many other companies over the short history of the industrial revolution tried proprietary only soft/hardware's only to fail. The companies that saw the light and opened the source for expandability and integration with other non-proprietary open architecture survived and thrived.
|Feb 14, 2013, 09:35 PM|
That's a good list of solid hardware Jengaleng. I've got the 9CAP and love it.. wish I had the 10. My other radios are the JR 9303 and Walkera Devo 12s (specifically for the x88), and a DX6i for buddy boxing. On the flight controller side, in addition to what I listed, I've played with the Wii controllers, CopterControl FCs, a DJI Naza, and a Blade MqX .
They've made one upgrade to the DJI Groundstation software since November of last year.. but it wasn't anything significant. I don't even remember what it was they changed. It is by far the most confusing I've used, but I think I've got it figured.. except for the photogrammetry stuff which is really the stuff I need.
They made an firmware upgrade to the WK-M a couple weeks ago and people are having all kinds of problems with it. I was one of the first that upgraded and my octo was not near as stable. A lot of people are going back to the old version. I wish DJI would mark something brand new as beta so people with really expensive rigs don't go diving in head first.
|Feb 15, 2013, 04:23 PM|
That happened with XAircraft when they upgraded from V! Version v1.33 to 1.34 all kinds of things went wrong so a Notice was put out by owners that all should switch back to v1.33 and never advance any further in upgrades. They did come out later with a correction from 1.34a now called to 1.34b which corrected the issues but the upgrade really did nothing for you. V1.33 is super stable once you install throughout your FC system, ahrs, gps-s etc... and tune for copter you are flying.
They also had same issue with upgrades to V2 P-series which I find most unpredictable and will not fly any longer with my copters. I actually had a fly away with the V2 P-series that I never recovered under live testing at time. Lost $3000 in test gear. Never to this day have found copter. Believe it went down in a swamp area 3 miles away due to had 11000mah pack on at time. Also no one ever reported finding and never heard any police or tv station reports of copter going down.
Now how do you like the APM2.5 or are you still with APM2 without upgrades?
Is it worth diving into? To this date I have never seen one completely tuned out as stable as my S-series. That's why I have held off. Would get the Naza in a flash but its to limited in capability. Wk-m each time I think maybe time to jump people find new issues with GCS to software problems. With me the GCS and autonomous capabilities are paramount in my FC system purchase decision.
|Feb 15, 2013, 06:55 PM|
Yesterday was a GOOD DAY!
In fact, it was an EXCEPTIONALLY AWESOME DAY!!
FINALLY.. after nearly 3 months of problematic gear (mostly my 1st Quad),
repeated crashes and Mega$$ trying to get off the ground..
My relentless determination to enjoy some flying, FPV and do some
Aerial Video has -at last- paid off.
Yesterday, February 14th, 2013 has definitely been a landmark day for me!
I soared like the Hawk!
Finally, I enjoyed my very 1st successful FPV Climax and got some Aerial footage,
which although by comparison to most of you, Sukt.. but the point of Joy for me
was just the fact that I was able to DO IT!!
Observations and Lessons Learned..
Upon getting all my parts the 1st thing I noticed was that the landing gear I had ordered
apparently is not that of the X830-F, but rather the one for the X830-D as it is much
taller. I didn’t see any different skids offered for this specific model so Im guessing
they might not be available and these that came with my “F” were just cut shorter
Personally, I like these longer/taller skids much better as it gives me more room around
and below the Cam mount for my FPV antenna, batteries and whatever else.
However.. something that was immediately noticeable, these longer/taller skids also have
the drawback that they are very weak & shaky considering the amount of weight they
have to hold up, and higher up. The narrow placement between each landing gear is also
a crucial factor which gives the Quad a very precarious, unstable center of gravity.
Still, I like them much better than the shorter ones and my temp resolve to keep them
sturdy was to use my “extended” DIY anti-tipping skids which protrude far beyond the
skids both front, rear and sides. Fastened to the landing gear at each end gave the skids
much better stability.
This additional height also allowed me to place my FPV antenna in another location
and from what I could tell, there was only nominal EMI interference in my AV signal
and apparently no issues with the Naza/GPS.
Of course, prior to attempting any flight, during and after re-assembling the Quad last
night I made a comprehensive triple-check of Everything! All the wires, connections,
plugs, screws, nuts & bolts. Did a meticulous examination of each prop, under a large
(jewelers) UV illuminated magnifying glass.. Found no stress fissures, fractures or any
other issues of concern. Subsequently I checked and re-balanced each prop.
Once re-assembled I also did a thorough bench test to make sure everything
was working as should be.
In total I was able to do 3 successful, exhilarating flights lasting about 14 mins each.
That brings us back to the batteries and flight time issue – Im not getting the 20+ mins
as has been claimed.
If I factor in my geographic altitude, full loaded weight, weak props and crappy batteries..
Ok, Im short about 6+ mins on my flight time. Im going to tackle this issue and try
several tweaks, different batteries, CF or wood props and see what happens!
I really didn’t take the time to make everything nice and neat, so for these tests I just
used crude tie-strap, off balance gear placement & tape rigging.
The 1st test flight was bare bones with no added gear to check all systems and make sure
He was flying stable and smooth.
Had no problems whatsoever, everything was running perfectly, I also didn’t detect
any vibes or unusual wobbles.
On the 2nd flight I added the Sony 660 Board-cam for FPV.
This came with 2 lenses, a wide angle like the GoPro and a regular lens with no
perspective distortion – and that’s the one I used.
NOW I can see why everyone seems to favor using this type of lens/cam for FPV!
The realistic and undistorted perspective makes all the difference in the World – WOW!
It was an AWESOME experience!!
I wonder though.. from looking at the various settings available in the GoPro, I believe
seeing one that indicates: “1080p – Medium FOV”
Havent tried it yet but I need to check out all the various settings to see if I can eliminate
the board-cam and reduce my overall payload as much as possible.
On my 3rd flight I decided to go with a full payload, using both the GoPro and the
board-cam. I had serious concerns if He would be able to handle that much weight,
and for how long..
Amazing.. the full weight load, even though poorly distributed, didn’t cause any
problems at all. The flight was smooth and stable.
However.. I could tell all that weight was a significant burden on those plastic props.
This just confirms what everyone has been saying about using better props for stability
smoother flight and less strain on the motors..
Although costly, I think it’s going to be worth the $$ to go for some CF props, or better
yet.. as an alternative Im looking into lightweight wood, specifically designed for
multi-rotors from someone Ive been talking to who can do the 10mm bore.
I dedicate this video (coming soon! ) as a tribute to BAT, JENG, KER
and all you guys for helping and sticking with me as Ive fumbled, crashed
and clawed my way to get to this point..
You all have my sincere Gratitude!!
After yesterdays awesome experience I went out again today with some of the
guys from the Flight-Club..
Just for Giggles-n-Grins I decided to use the batteries from my other Quad
for my first test and systems check flight..
They are the NanoTech 3300 mAh 35-50C 3S..
FAR less heavy & bulky than those 2 huge bricks (5500 mAh) that came with my X830..
I figured that at most I’d be around 5 mins or less flight time, perfect for a quickie test.
To my absolute astonishment.. 15 mins later I was barely starting to get a Batt-Low
I’m getting about the same 14-15 min flight time with those heavy bricks..
HOW is this possible..?
Now I’m just dumbfounded!
|Feb 16, 2013, 01:29 AM|
Every multicopter has a sweet spot with battery capacity vs total weight.
I've got two 5300mah lipos on my Octo for a total of 10600mah and get 13min flight time.
I've added an additional two 5300mah lipos 21200mah and got no extra flight time at all; still 13min. Turns out the extra weight of the other two lipos caused the amp draw (lipo depletion rate) to double.
If you've got an amp meter (which is a highly worthwhile investment), you can find the sweet spot using a small lipo and continually adding extra weight and finding out what the amp draw is at those weights. It should look like a bell curve with the first half being not enough mah and the second half being two much weight.
|Feb 16, 2013, 02:13 PM|
You incriminated yourself Gotcha! You didn't read all my tutorials or you would would have known the answer to that question.
Read TUTORIAL 7
Kv, Motor Designations, Kv vs. Torque and Kv vs. Propeller Choice & "C" RATINGS
This will explain your question and give you some idea for experimentation how to maximize your airtime. Think of it as battery tuning.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1670862 Go down to Tutorial 7
BTW Congratulations on your first rebuild and now a better understanding of how multicopters work. You have now moved to the next level in the multicopter world.
"When you first flew multicopters you were but the learner, now you are the builder, tester and pilot".
I will help you answer your question on this one but please read the tutorial so you can calculate answer.
This is why you did so well on just a NanoTech 3300 mAh 35-50C 3S.
When you calculate it out and then use meter that Kerbob mentioned which is a great little meter for the price you will get very very close to these figures.
With X830 including Naza Gps unit.
max amp draw 65
a draw based on sel. flying load % 13.0
flying time in mins. 15
flying time in mins 80% rule 12
min need of cells (C) 20
max pwr consumption (W) 722
Charge rate (A) 3.3
These figure I calculated under normal use no fancy stuff. More hovering than aggressive flying.
|Feb 16, 2013, 04:34 PM|
Joined Jan 2013
MJS88 CONGRATS ON YOUR STELLAR RETURN TO THE AIR ABOVE!! YOU KNOW THAT BRINGS HOPE TO THOSE OF US OTHER NEWBIES WHO ARE GROUNDED. YOU HAVE TO DROP CRASHMASTER AND BECOME SOARMASTER OR ??? AND congrats on Bat moving you "officially" to level 2. No longer a newbie! Do you remember what it was like when you were still one of us?
I wanted to give an update on my situation. After a total of 4 emails WOW is sending a new motor. I sent back another email asking how they new it was the motor and they responded if it doesn't work you will have to return it to us for more diagnostics. (NEVER !!! ) . I plan to follow Bats guidelines and assess the situation this weekend and go from there.
The worst thing, as you know is being grounded. I have a heli coming and two gas powered Hirobos from the old days that I want to get flying again. I couldn't resist the Skyhawk from RangeView (also bought the RTY Video setup that you use BAT) and that should be here next week (sorry about the wings).
Again Rick congrats
A general question. If I want to fly the Hirobos by binding them to the Devo12 I own, are all the available servos the same size? Does anyone have a recommendation for where to buy the servos, gyro etc that I need to convert the old equipment to something that will be compatable with my new Devo 12? Help Bat!! Please. . . (I am reading the tutorials but you have to know that it will take a while and multiple return trips to them. Ever think of a book Bat? It would be a gold standard!!!
|Feb 16, 2013, 05:23 PM|
Don't worry you will get there soon, just remember;
"Every flight is a test flight and every crash is a lesson".
Man I do not know on the Hibros, what do you have the shuttle 60pwr? I have not bound any of my Helis to the Devo so really can’t answer those questions. I have spektrum radios for all my helis. The Devo I am sure would do well just have not tried it but I do know the Devo is one of the easiest binding radios around but they are particular to what you can bind them too. Example; I've not been able to bind a MQX to a Devo radio but binds easily to a spektrum radio.
Sorry no books in future, just tutorials and articles to help the rc community if possible. The best I could probably do would be a kid’s book.
“See dad fly his quadcopter. See dad crash his quadcopter. See dad jump up and down and run around in circles yelling colorful metaphors to his quadcopter. See quadcopter does not respond to dad. Dad is sad and unhappy."
There are too many really intelligent individuals in this hobby and on this thread that would do a much better job writing a book on mulitcopters than I could ever dream of doing.
|Feb 16, 2013, 05:45 PM|
Joined Apr 2012
Hi Bat; (and everyone
I was having a problem with my X830s a couple weeks ago and cannot seem to solve it.
It’s like tiny random power surges to the motors (all 4) that cause the craft to wildly jump (usually to the left.)
I can actually hear the surges with and without the props on, even with no vibration.
Here’s what I know:
It seems to happen at a particular RPM.
It happens to all motors; I tested them independently (one at a time.)
All wiring seems to be OK.
Here’s what you should know:
This is the craft that hit the ground from about 250 ft. in the Mojave Desert.
The only parts from that crashed unit are: 2 ESC’s, the receiver, the gyro, the flight controller, and all the wires.
The TX system is Walkera DEVO-10
The Flight controller and Gyro are Xaircraft.
I am at the point where I may purchase another unit and use this one as parts.
Also; can I run my wires over the arm instead of through?
Thank you so much for your help, I am pretty lost.
|Feb 16, 2013, 08:19 PM|
A few ideas but not sure without inspecting copter. ALL TEST WITH BLADES OFF PLEASE
1. Surging is known if clogged barometer hole on AHRS. Verify AHRS clean inside and outside and barometer free to breath.
2. Check since rebuild that you have AHRS on a pad not hard mounted on FC which might be hard mounted to copter which may cause the same issue and even failure if severe enough vibration from hard mount to frame.
3. Check if wiring from AHRS to FC is defective which I have had happen, you can't even tell without pulling each wire to make sure its tight in plug housing. Don't forget to check the receptacle itself if bent prong.
4. Possible damaged AHRS which may need to be replaced.
If none of those are issue continue;
PLEASE WRITE DOWN ALL RESULTS OR VIDEO THE TEST IF YOU WISH.
Can you connect up your copter to XA Center and go to AHRS screen after copter bubble leveled and re-run the calibration of the AHRS? Then while it is sitting there after calibration run the ahrs data oscilloscope first doing a good long GYRO CHECK using following method.
1. Select Pitch Angle, Roll Angle and Yaw Angle only.
2. Click the “Start” button.
3. Simulate flight attitude by tilting and spinning AHRS Module as follows.
1. Pitch. Tilt AHRS Module on pitch direction to find out whether the appropriate curve motion on oscilloscope accords with your move. Pitch curve will be on the ±30°roughly when tilts to 30° forward/backward.
2. Roll. Tilt AHRS Module on roll direction to find out whether the appropriate curve motion on oscilloscope accords with your move. Roll curve will be on the ±30°roughly when tilts to 30°on the left/right for example.
3. Yaw. Spin AHRS to change heading to find out whether the appropriate curve motion on oscilloscope accords with your move. Spin curve will be on the ±30°roughly when spin to 30°on the left/right.
Now set the copter back down and leave connected and recording for 5mins monitoring for the glitch in gyros.
Acceleration sensor check;
1. Select X Accel, Y Accel and Z Accel only.
2. Click the "Start" button.
3. Simulate flight attitude by tilting AHRS Module as follows;
1. When AHRS put on a level surface, Z axis value is 1 and the X, Y axis is 0.
2. Roll. Tilt AHRS Module on roll direction to find out whether Y curves fluctuations on oscilloscope accords with your move. When tilt to 90°on left/right nearly, it shows ±1 value on Y axis and 0 on the X and Z.
3. Pitch. Tilt AHRS Module on pitch direction to find out whether X curve fluctuations on oscilloscope accords with your move. When tilt to 90°forward/backward nearly, it shows ±1value on X axis and 0 on the Y and Z.
4. When wobbling AHRS severely, there will be one curve among X/Y/Z of which peak value exceeds ±1.
set the copter back down and leave connected and recording for 5mins monitoring for the glitch in Acceleration sensor mode.
Once you have done this let me know what you get and if you still see your glitch.
If you still have problem then here are more recommendations before giving up on AHRS.
First make sure you are running this firmware on board; FC1212-S V1.33, AHRS-S V1.23
You should have your zip drive that came with copter so check that also for the firmware you have loaded in FC currently. If you have this firmware continue. If you do not have this firmware then we need to load this firmware onto FC and AHRS. See below;
If on-board firmware is same as above.
1. We can try reloading firmware to AHRS. Connect to usb to dongle to AHRS only. This means if you have regular hookup disconnect cable from back of dongle to FC and reconnect that to the AHRS link slot. Redownload firmware AHRS-S V1.23 to the AHRS. Reconnect all back up after completion and verify on screen and you have disconnected from XA center.
2. Now go back into XACenter after you are back to connections as you started and reconnect usb to dongle connection. Verify all is lighting up as should be and go to AHRS screen and do a bubble level on copter then click calibrate. Once recalibrated see if you have issue any longer.
If you still have issue then go back to start. Reload all firmware back on FC and Ahrs again together this time without disconnecting dongle to individually load. Again after completion verify first in RC screens everything still correctly hooked up. Then go to ahrs screen and bubble level copter and recalibrate again.
Now bench test and see if glitches come back. This should solve the problem unless hardware issue.. If hardware open pocket book buy NAZA WITH GPS HOOKUP AND BE HAPPY.
Just a note; Notice TUTORIAL 4 troubleshooting issues. I had someone else with similar problems and this was final solution to correct AHRS issue. This will walk you through the above comments on reloading AHRS and FC.
|Feb 16, 2013, 09:20 PM|
Joined Jan 2013
Bat in response to your note. I think that you are being a bit too modest. But that is the Bat. . . I was thinking that the servos and receiver that WOW sells for repairs on the V500D01 (which I should have in my dirty hands on Monday, I think that I mentioned that I bought one) would be fine in the Hirobo Eagle. Obviously this will bind to the Devo 12, but what I don't know yet is if the size of the servos (i.e. will I be able to just substitute them into the slots where I have the old original Futaba analog servos). If they are the same size it is just going to be a real training (for me) experience to program the Hirobo on the Devo. I actually love the idea but wouldnt mind if someone experienced in the setup was available to speak with. I can't tell you the name of the gas motor that I have installed, but at the time it was a hot pick and very powerful. Would be a kick to use now. Otherwise two neat Hirobo Helis are only good as decorations (i.e. junk).
|Feb 16, 2013, 09:33 PM|
I think the Hirobo ran a 60 size motor man that was a time ago I would think it would not matter on the servo size as much as whether it is digital or analog. I think you have to go in an set your different throws anyway on your Tx so should not matter. What I have had issue with in FC systems is digital vs analog with servos. Man Xa stuff doesn't like digital servos at all.
Im still looking one day to buy the Mongoose as a drone copter but have no room to put it at this point. I have run out of room I did buy that spyhawk but still in shipping box, haven't had time to look at it and buried in 3 feet of snow so no outside playing anyway. More snow tonight
BTW you could always convert those to electric with a little work.
These guys still carry the parts instock for those. http://www.modelhelicopters.co.uk/he...gle-freya.html
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