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Old Dec 05, 2011, 06:19 AM
Spiritual Hovering
Coptaire's Avatar
Paris, France
Joined Sep 2010
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* FAA RESTRICTS all RC helicopter / multi in US airspace ? *

It seems that Friday 2nd of December, FAA forbids any flight of this kind.
Could someone confirm this or comment?

This means that, from now, no commercial usage can be operated from a multirotor for AP.

We are rather more lucky here in France, where conditions exists to operate such flights, even if the "telepilot" has a lot of requirements, plus authorizations to get.

A group of several french PRO AP users joined their efforts to create a professional federation, already talking with authorities.
The goal is to build our credibility, to provide training, to enhance the overall skills of our members, and to focus on security.

This is the best thing, US PRO AP have to do, IMHO.
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Old Dec 05, 2011, 08:18 AM
Team White Llama!
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as of right now you can't use a multirotor for commericial purposes. This is because the FAA formed a committee (ARC committee) to draft some regulations for sUAS. In feb 2012, these regulations will be open for comment. Then when we'll see what premanent restrictions are put on commercial use of multirotors. So the commercial ban is only temp, until we see these regulations.

There is not ban on regular RC multicopter flights that just for fun. the sUAS regulations are just to keep a growing sector (cheap AP, etc.etc.etc) safe and regulated. I doubt they'll just ban it all outright, to much money to be made.
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Old Dec 05, 2011, 08:32 AM
Spiritual Hovering
Coptaire's Avatar
Paris, France
Joined Sep 2010
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I posted this after reading this announcement from a pro AP company website: mi6films.com

http://mi6films.com/2011/rc-helicopt...-airspace/687/

It seems there is a call for petition, where they publish a letter model.
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Old Dec 05, 2011, 08:40 AM
Team White Llama!
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this is straight from that articale:

Quote:
Gentlemen-

I would appreciate the opportunity to speak with the person or persons in

your organization who oversee your unmanned aircraft operation. As a

courtesy to you and your organization, I would like to discuss the existing

prohibition of commercial operations of unmanned aircraft systems (UAS) in

the U.S. national airspace as well as the rule making efforts the FAA is

currently undertaking to provide for such operations in the future.


Please respond within 5 business days.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Kind regards,

Lance

R. Lance Nuckolls

Aviation Safety Inspector – Flight Operations

FAA Office of Aviation Safety

Flight Standards Service

Unmanned Aircraft Program Office (AFS-407)

470 L’Enfant Plaza STE 3200

Washington, DC 20024

202-385-4958

lance.nuckolls@faa.gov
as you can see by the highlighted text, Mr.Nuckolls says that the proposed rulemaking will allow commerical use of multirotors and other sUAV's. He wants to talk about that with the guys from MI6.

The proposed rule making will be open for public comment in Feb. That is when we need to come together and make sure that these rules allow the commercial use of multirotors.
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Old Dec 05, 2011, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gundamnitpete View Post
this is straight from that articale:



as you can see by the highlighted text, Mr.Nuckolls says that the proposed rulemaking will allow commerical use of multirotors and other sUAV's. He wants to talk about that with the guys from MI6.

The proposed rule making will be open for public comment in Feb. That is when we need to come together and make sure that these rules allow the commercial use of multirotors.
Yes, OCCUPY the FAA.
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Old Dec 05, 2011, 09:26 AM
Team White Llama!
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caually spraying multicopter sUAV, lol
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Old Dec 05, 2011, 09:49 AM
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Joined Aug 2010
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This has been the case since 2007. No new news here.

2013 rule drafts was supposed to happen in 2009, 2010, and this November.
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Old Dec 05, 2011, 10:19 AM
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RTRyder's Avatar
Boston, MA
Joined Jul 2010
1,063 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coptaire View Post
It seems that Friday 2nd of December, FAA forbids any flight of this kind.
Could someone confirm this or comment?

This means that, from now, no commercial usage can be operated from a multirotor for AP.

We are rather more lucky here in France, where conditions exists to operate such flights, even if the "telepilot" has a lot of requirements, plus authorizations to get.

A group of several french PRO AP users joined their efforts to create a professional federation, already talking with authorities.
The goal is to build our credibility, to provide training, to enhance the overall skills of our members, and to focus on security.

This is the best thing, US PRO AP have to do, IMHO.
Hard to tell from what is posted on that website but that decree from the FAA happened back around 2007 if I recall correctly. The RC community has been waiting since then for clarification of the FAA position and issuance of the NPRM for public comment. The date for release of the NPRM has been set many times and each time has slipped off into the future for one reason or another.

This is old information and nothing to get worried or upset about, here in the USA we've known about it for a long time. Organizations such as the Academy of Model Aeronautics have been involved in the rule making comittee work as well as other interested sUAS parties, the wheels of government are turning albeit slowly. Right now all that can done is to wait for the eventual release of the NPRM from the FAA and then comment on it.

Some links to related information...

http://regs.dot.gov/rulemakings/201009/FAA.htm#17
http://www.suasnews.com/uas-regulations/
http://www.suasnews.com/2011/02/3841...om-suas-rules/
http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/gov.aspx
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Old Dec 05, 2011, 12:47 PM
Spiritual Hovering
Coptaire's Avatar
Paris, France
Joined Sep 2010
257 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTRyder View Post
Hard to tell from what is posted on that website but that decree from the FAA happened back around 2007 if I recall correctly. The RC community has been waiting since then for clarification of the FAA position and issuance of the NPRM for public comment. The date for release of the NPRM has been set many times and each time has slipped off into the future for one reason or another.

This is old information and nothing to get worried or upset about, here in the USA we've known about it for a long time. Organizations such as the Academy of Model Aeronautics have been involved in the rule making comittee work as well as other interested sUAS parties, the wheels of government are turning albeit slowly. Right now all that can done is to wait for the eventual release of the NPRM from the FAA and then comment on it.

Some links to related information...

http://regs.dot.gov/rulemakings/201009/FAA.htm#17
http://www.suasnews.com/uas-regulations/
http://www.suasnews.com/2011/02/3841...om-suas-rules/
http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/gov.aspx
It is a good opportunity to remind us of the not so new situation.

You mentioned AMA as a body participating, but does the PRO AP multirotor users have a professional federation, as we do in France?
The modelist scope is not the professional scope, the french decree (soon to be released) addresses both "families".

We are now in the process of legally creating the french federation, after getting enough members joining us in a snap, but we already are in touch with authorities to submit items within the decree (as no provision is explicitly written for us, like the theory license to get and the piloting exam).

Should a similar federation (PRO AP telepilots and operators) exist , or is about to be created, it would a good idea to have a partnering with this US federation, and other countries too.

It is really a new job on the legalized way, potentially using the airspace in a specific way, and such organizations complying with law and security is the best way to get credibility.
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Old Dec 05, 2011, 01:03 PM
Spektrum Dev Team
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United States, IL, Champaign
Joined Apr 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RTRyder View Post
...This is old information and nothing to get worried or upset about, here in the USA we've known about it for a long time. Organizations such as the Academy of Model Aeronautics have been involved in the rule making comittee work as well as other interested sUAS parties, the wheels of government are turning albeit slowly. Right now all that can done is to wait for the eventual release of the NPRM from the FAA and then comment on it....
true, sort of... after the feds ran out of money last summer they let everyone go, and when they restarted their work they threw everything they had been working on out the window and started fresh with new people.... and now that they have reconvened the AMA is NOT being included.....

http://www.suasnews.com/2011/11/10245/uas-arc-2-0/

they can pry my transmitter from my cold dead hands
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Old Dec 05, 2011, 01:54 PM
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USA, VA, Richmond
Joined Jan 2011
188 Posts
From Bob Titus on another post yesterday:
Here is the answer I just received from the FAA, so I guess the blog is merely phishing and misinformation (current practice unfortunately).

Bob

Dear Mr. Fo...er:

Contrary to the blog posted to the Mi6 Film's website that you so kindly
provided, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has not stopped the use
of all unmanned aircraft systems (UAS) being used for a commercial purpose
(i.e. other than for pleasure, recreation or sport use by an individual.)

Any person or company wishing to obtain FAA authorization to operate a UAS
in the U.S. airspace for a commercial purpose may do so.

For more information: http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/uas_faq/

Of course, the use of a small radio-controlled model aircraft by an
individual for pleasure, recreation or sport does not require FAA approval,
provided there is no compensation to the individual for its use.

Kind regards,

R. Lance Nuckolls
Aviation Safety Inspector - Flight Operations
FAA Office of Aviation Safety
Unmanned Aircraft Program Office (AFS-407)
Washington, DC Headquarters

What is an unmanned aircraft system (UAS)?
A UAS is the unmanned aircraft (UA) and all of the associated support equipment, control station, data links, telemetry, communications and navigation equipment, etc., necessary to operate the unmanned aircraft.

The UA is the flying portion of the system, flown by a pilot via a ground control system, or autonomously through use of an on-board computer, communication links and any additional equipment that is necessary for the UA to operate safely. The FAA issues an experimental airworthiness certificate for the entire system, not just the flying portion of the system.

Do I need to get approval from the FAA to fly a model aircraft for recreation?
No. FAA guidance does not address size of the model aircraft. FAA guidance says that model aircraft flights should be kept below 400 feet above ground level (AGL), should be flown a sufficient distance from populated areas and full scale aircraft, and are not for business purposes. 1, 2

What is the difference between an Unmanned Aircraft (UA), a Remotely Operated Aircraft (ROA), a Remotely Piloted Vehicle (RPV), and an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle?
Currently the FAA and most of the international community uses the term "UA" or "UAS" for UA System. Previously used terms to identify unmanned aircraft are ROA, RPV, and UAV.
If I fly a UAS for business purposes, such as new technology development, am I required to get approval from the FAA?
Yes. There are presently two methods of gaining FAA approval for flying UAS: Special Airworthiness Certificates - Experimental Category (SAC-EC) for civil aircraft, and Certificates of Waiver or Authorization (COA) for public aircraft. 1, 3

What’s the difference between public and civil aircraft?
A public aircraft is one that is only for the United States government or owned and operated by the government of a state, the District of Columbia, or a territory or possession of the U. S. or a political subdivision. Operators of public aircraft include DOD, DOJ, DHS, NASA, NOAA, state/local agencies and qualifying universities. Civil aircraft means other than a public aircraft. 1, 4

If I want to operate a civil aircraft, how do I obtain an experimental airworthiness certificate?
The Aircraft Certification Service – Production and Airworthiness Division (AIR-200) at FAA headquarters in Washington, D.C. holds this responsibility and can be reached via email or telephone (202) 385-6346. All questions regarding the process and procedures required to obtain an experimental certificate will be answered by AIR-200. 1, 3, 5

Can I fly a UAS under a COA or experimental certificate for commercial purposes?
No. Currently, there are no means to obtain an authorization for commercial UAS operations in the NAS. However, manufacturers may apply for an experimental certificate for the purposes of R&D, market survey and crew training.

If I want to operate a public UAS, how do I obtain a COA?
The UAS COA process is managed in Washington, DC, FAA Headquarters in the UAS Group (AJV-13). Contact AJV-13 via emailfor assistance. The process includes opening a COA website account, which has an application that can be populated on-line. Public aircraft are tied to government agencies, therefore credentials must be provided. 3

Are FAA issued pilot certificates required to operate civil UAS?
It depends on where you intend to operate, but in all cases you need to be additionally trained in all specific details of the UA being operated. 3

How long does the process take?
From our experience, depending on the complexity, from 2 months to 1 year.

Is a FAA issued pilot certificate required to operate civil UAS?
Yes. If the aircraft is issued an airworthiness certificate a pilot certificate is required. 3

How long does the process take to obtain an experimental certificate?
From our experience, depending on the system and operational complexity, the process may take from 60 to 90 days.
Is the FAA considering a special type of airspace for UAS?
Currently there are no actions being taken to establish a "special UAS airspace". This "special UAS airspace" would be counter to the idea of integrating unmanned aircraft into the NAS because it would be segregating, not integrating.

What about commercial operations? What are the obstacles to standards, certification, and operating procedures?
All operations conducted in civil airspace must meet minimum levels of safety. Public UA operators have the ability to self-certify their equipment and personnel, but civil operators are certified by the FAA. We believe civil operators will benefit from the collaboration between the FAA and the public operators. Presently, the FAA is drafting a rule to address small UAS.

What do you think the FAA will have to do to address the UAS industry changes and growth?
The UAS industry has grown largely as a result of supporting the defense organizations and this is reflected in the type of systems that have been developed. However, operations in civil airspace have different priorities. Civil performance standards are often more stringent, especially in the areas of reliability. Public expectation for a safe aviation environment drives our very high standards.

References
Federal Register Notice - Clarification of FAA Policy (PDF), UAS Operations in the U.S. National Airspace System
Advisory Circular 91-57, Model Aircraft Operating Standards
FAA Interim Operational Approval Guidance 08-01, Unmanned Aircraft Systems Operations in the U. S. National Airspace System
Part A, Subtitle VII of title 49, United States Code, Section 40102, Definitions; and 14 CFR 1.1 General Definitions
FAA Order 8130.34, Airworthiness Certification of Unmanned Aircraft Systems
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Old Dec 05, 2011, 02:05 PM
Registered User
Joined Jun 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirFishaLot View Post
From Bob Titus on another post yesterday:
Here is the answer I just received from the FAA, so I guess the blog is merely phishing and misinformation (current practice unfortunately).

Bob

Dear Mr. Fo...er:

Contrary to the blog posted to the Mi6 Film's website that you so kindly
provided, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has not stopped the use
of all unmanned aircraft systems (UAS) being used for a commercial purpose
(i.e. other than for pleasure, recreation or sport use by an individual.)

Any person or company wishing to obtain FAA authorization to operate a UAS
in the U.S. airspace for a commercial purpose may do so.

For more information: http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/uas_faq/

Of course, the use of a small radio-controlled model aircraft by an
individual for pleasure, recreation or sport does not require FAA approval,
provided there is no compensation to the individual for its use.

Kind regards,

R. Lance Nuckolls
Aviation Safety Inspector - Flight Operations
FAA Office of Aviation Safety
Unmanned Aircraft Program Office (AFS-407)
Washington, DC Headquarters

Dude. Right from the FAA FAQ you posted:


Can I fly a UAS under a COA or experimental certificate for commercial purposes?

No. Currently, there are no means to obtain an authorization for commercial UAS operations in the NAS. However, manufacturers may apply for an experimental certificate for the purposes of R&D, market survey and crew training.
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Old Dec 05, 2011, 02:12 PM
a little boy's dream come true
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France, Corse, Santo-Pietro-di-Tenda
Joined May 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRFlyer567 View Post
Dude. Right from the FAA FAQ you posted:


Can I fly a UAS under a COA or experimental certificate for commercial purposes?

No. Currently, there are no means to obtain an authorization for commercial UAS operations in the NAS. However, manufacturers may apply for an experimental certificate for the purposes of R&D, market survey and crew training.
yep, exactly.
But it says this as well : quoting FAA " Presently, the FAA is drafting a rule to address small UAS. "
So there may well be something new regarding COA and AVP in this coming draft, like it happened here in France where we managed to get some "air" for our activity

Bob
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Old Dec 05, 2011, 02:16 PM
Spiritual Hovering
Coptaire's Avatar
Paris, France
Joined Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob.titus View Post
yep, exactly.

Bob
By comparison, it is possible to ask for a prototype authorization to DGAC/France, even before the new decree release.

This thread is about helping to compare FAA and DGAC (other countries welcome), and help operators understanding, and why not, develop a common argumentation, being the same new job, with the same products access, with the same market.

We are in a globalized world, don't we?
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Old Dec 05, 2011, 02:27 PM
a little boy's dream come true
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France, Corse, Santo-Pietro-di-Tenda
Joined May 2009
3,369 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coptaire View Post
By comparison, it is possible to ask for a prototype authorization to DGAC/France, even before the new decree release.

This thread is about helping to compare FAA and DGAC (other countries welcome), and help operators understanding, and why not, develop a common argumentation, being the same new job, with the same products access, with the same market.

We are in a globalized world, don't we?
I roger that.
It's very important today to be able to compare what is done in various countries and develop common grounds and practices for this new AVP PROFESSIONAL business.
I insist on PROFESSIONAL because if we want to continue existing there is no room for amateurism.

Bob
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