SMALL - espritmodel.com SMALL - Telemetry SMALL - Radio
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Aug 12, 2012, 02:01 AM
flexwing addict
mark675's Avatar
midlands uk
Joined Sep 2004
2,676 Posts
m#rio has been saying that ive been studying his microlights all these years and have now copied his,

simple.. check dates.. and anyone can go see pictures of his earlier microlights on his site then you can be the judge of whether it looks anything like mine whatsoever,
he doesnt put detailed pics up like i do (i see why now) and videos of this early weightshift microlight do not exist on the net...
now being the type of person he is- if this microlight flew well it would be all over the net stating 'worlds first' 'most realistic' etc etc
this makes me believe it didnt go well for him and his further comments of 'heavy trikes dont crash well' and 'weightshift isnt effective'
let alone his jibes at my microlight when i was building it admitting he had big problems with weightshift not being effective further proves this.

saying that all us weightshift guys choose the 'easy way' of steering using the twin servos is just plain silly,
his unrealistic robotic pilot was added 6 months after he got it flying using the twin servo setup he saw on mine late last year,
same wing steering bar, rods and with a wing looking very similar to mine and completely different to what he was making previously.
even the bend on the monopole up to the wing is bent in exactly the same place and at the same angle.

Its very hard to see the details he has copied because he always does artistic impressions on his videos,
i would imagine in a vain attempt to hide these facts.

as i said before my wing hasnt changed in idea (apart from trying a kite on my very first test! lol)
and you can see throughout that thread me learning about how they fly,
my wing was baggy before, .. i didnt know very much at all about how these wings got stability and flew properly so i read up ALOT about them and you can see the wing get tighter in my 'old microlight test' video as i learned more.
i always put what i learnt on the forum so others could learn along with me, i know 100% he was reading this as he commented.

also i didnt want to make all the little brackets to hold bits and pieces together on the very early wing as i literally had no idea whatsoever if it was even going to lift off and all this would of been a waste,
i glued the crossbar to the leading edges using kite fittings to hold it which the glue didnt glue very well as they slid around and changed the shape of the wing

old microlight test (4 min 49 sec)
mark675 is offline Find More Posts by mark675
Last edited by mark675; Aug 12, 2012 at 03:58 AM. Reason: added pics and video
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Aug 12, 2012, 02:31 AM
flexwing addict
mark675's Avatar
midlands uk
Joined Sep 2004
2,676 Posts
i hadnt even put an A frame or any flying cables on at this point-
thats how little i knew!
but reading up on hang glider forums and sites about pitch, roll and yaw stability made me realise these we're crutial.

having had the microlight takeoff in the previous tests and actually fly.. too fast and not controllable or stable granted! but it took off so i decided to make a new wing.. and not the rogallo one that i kept my eye on through the whole project lol.

I still kept the same design but added battens, tipstruts, Aframe, kingpost, floating crossbar, keel fin and flying wires and made it much tighter.

I never worked on this microlight all the time my other hobbies, family and work got in the way hense why it took 4 years!
but maybe if it didnt take that long it wouldnt have flown or flown well as i wouldnt of read up about and found out as much as i did in that time.
ive lost count of all the hang glider and microlight videos ive watched on youtube, sites ive visited about these wings and general aircraft and even bought all the microlight books for real pilots hoping to learn something else from some of them (not cheap!! lol)
sometimes up until early hours reading through half closed eyes
mark675 is offline Find More Posts by mark675
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2012, 02:46 AM
flexwing addict
mark675's Avatar
midlands uk
Joined Sep 2004
2,676 Posts
in the meantime AntonioF104 made a microlight which is way different mine and a mix of rogallo and real microlight wing,
its all his own design and we have mutual respect for each others achievement.
it flew lovely and gave me new hope for mine but knowing mine was going to be a different type of wing

look on page 3 of my nitro microlight thread and look at the pictures of his microlight and the video.. any similar to mine? no because he didnt think it would work and he said so...

I stumbled on this thread and it brought back memories of my RC trikes.

I am almost sorry I sold my very first wing I built for an 8ft Electric Powered hanglider back in the 80's. (picture by the pool and with my two daughters). I didn't have the room to fly the 8ft wing one at the time I sold it, but now I do, and I miss it. So I am building a new one of same size.

The problem most people run into with trying to build a realistic RC Trike is improper CG, and mainly control. I did too and looking at some of the new comers to scratch-building RC trikes, I can't help but to smile, how I went through the same process.

My very first attempt was a wing tiping over, same as some people show in their videos on You Tube, because I didn't know anything about trike design at that time, but I found out a lot of information by pure trial and error, later comparing it with real trikes and fine tuning each aspect of the design, step by step.

I found that simplicity helped a lot, and was better than making a model true to scale, from the start, at at least until I got the mechanics worked out and finally perfected the control for RC Model Applications. Last thing I wanted to do was to do another Rogallo, weigh shift model, these never appealed to me because they didn't look right for some reason...the wing is too short and has less appeal than a thinner and high aspect ratio wing, in my opinion.

I started with the typical ways of controlling using weight shift, but I found better ways and have not looked back since.
mark675 is offline Find More Posts by mark675
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2012, 03:08 AM
flexwing addict
mark675's Avatar
midlands uk
Joined Sep 2004
2,676 Posts
now hes saying that technology wouldnt allow him to do all this back then due to heavy nicads etc,
when really its all down to his design being wrong.

mine flies with a heavy gopro camera, case and backpack fitted and other bits and pieces that need'nt be there, it trims to a slightly faster speed but it flies and handles fine despite the weight.

being an 8ft wing his would of easily been able to carry big weights.

he abandoned his large weightshift (due to space apparently) and sold it.

instead of making a smaller weightshift and trying again he abandoned the whole thing and went to small microlights with wingwarping (or his direct special super control system or something) 'and never looked back'

and wouldnt have looked back if it wasnt for nov 2011 when my first flight was put on youtube and the forums and then as if by magic he suddenly decided he can do weightshift afterall and made one that looks almost a replica of my wing and trike setup (inc twin servos)
filmed in the dark of course...

and funnily enough all the 'bells and whistles that were unnecessary on mine' like battens and things like that were back again,
and weightshift and twin servos? yeah theyre back again.. what happened to his special steering design?

his high aspect ratio wing that he developed on all his smaller models was gone and he was back to a proper hang glider shape...
he even stated after i said his new wing is much nicerand realistic than his old condor wing that the steering design would work very realistic on a larger model...so where is it?

now look at his last microlight video on the 6th december 2011, high aspect ratio wing, not being disrespectful but its very unrealistic in flight and appearance,

19th november my first takeoff runs were put on youtube with no servos added,

my first flight video was added on the 2nd december 2011

his new video was added on 31 december with a completely redesigned trike and wing that looks very similar to mine?
weightshift and twin servos? flying nice and smooth with no pitching like his previous ones, coincidence? not a chance.
and 'worlds first' 'most realistic' 'awesome' that he puts on every video is just laughable, talk about blowing your own trumpet.

now im a abit of a fan of some of his 3axis type microlights and know he can build good stuff but seems like he needs some help when it comes to weightshift microlights and getting them to fly realistic.
im not running down your microlights its just i had much more resect when you was going your own way with them,
in a way though im glad you liked my microlight enough to copy it.. like you did with little nelly autogyro.. the originals always the best though im afraid.

"ive done weightshift helicopters 10 years ago" doesnt work, this isnt a helicopter or a gyrocopter

you have no proof your weightshift flew and admitted yourself it didnt
i couldnt have copied you as mine was made and tested/flown before yours unless i messed with the dates on rc groups and youtube....
you have done a complete 'u' turn with your high aspect ratio wing and gone back to realistic now inc battens, weightshift etc
he got it to fly using my design and then added his 'robot pilot' to steer it 6 months later,
he said i cant make a topless 'sown' wing,
im sure i can take my kingpost and top wires off and add some solid side struts but this is my design and im sticking with it
also in my old thread i said this will be a sown wing on the final version, the taped battens are for testing.

hes trying to change it out of recognition now with robot pilots and topless wing but the proof is there that he used my design as his base to get it flying right (the hard part)
my opinion on the robot pilot being hugely unrealistic the way it initiates the roll is irrelevant but he seems proud of it anyway...

hes using finned spats now too (something i said i was doing but these im using we're more crash resistant for testing) the same reason im using an alloy plate for rear undercarriage- easy to bend back after a crash, when stopped crashing will be carbon rods.
and that fin on the back has appeared thats been on mine since day one.

some other people have said that hes ripped off their designs too and i only found out about these later on so another coincidence??

he blamed me for always putting thumbs down to his videos (why would i like it?) but now theres 3 0r 4 people doing it so its not only me that isnt impressed with the way he goes about things.

sorry to go on but i hope i have this all cleared up now,
i could of posted pictures, videos etc of the similarities and complete change in design of his wings and control ,
but he would just threaten with sueing me

just seems like sour grapes that hes been trying something since the 80's and i managed it before him,
and if you cant do it yourself then copy it and lie to everyone that will listen

regards,mark
mark675 is offline Find More Posts by mark675
Last edited by mark675; Aug 12, 2012 at 04:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2012, 02:09 PM
It was a GLITCH! Honestly!
SafeLandings's Avatar
Stourport on Severn ,Worcestershire, United Kingdom
Joined Dec 2007
4,833 Posts
I wouldn't worry to much Mark, a reaction like that that is what he may want?

Been looking around on the net as I do fancy having a go at one of these, I know absolutely nothing apart from a bit on weight shift.

If I do have a go I want to have a go at a scale job, these are the only drawings I found but I am sure I can make drawings from them. The second one I like.

Need to do some homework first and go up to my local micro light airfield and take some photos.


Regards

Rich
SafeLandings is offline Find More Posts by SafeLandings
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 12, 2012, 02:32 PM
flexwing addict
mark675's Avatar
midlands uk
Joined Sep 2004
2,676 Posts
yeah maybe it is the reaction he wanted but as long as i get the truth out there for everyone to see then he can lie all he wants.
seems like if he convinces himself hes right then he is lol

from his newest video he's still got some way to go to get it to fly stable anyway, seems to dive at anything less than full throttle
he really has got alot to learn still.


yeah go for it Rich i would love to see what you can come up with,
if its anything like your 'nelly' autogyro itll be awesome!

should be able to get it smack on with that plan and visiting an airfield is a good idea too
i went to the local airfield (long marston) and took lots of pics,
if you need any help with anything or any pics of real microlights/parts dont hessitate to message me.

regards,mark
mark675 is offline Find More Posts by mark675
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15, 2012, 04:12 PM
It was a GLITCH! Honestly!
SafeLandings's Avatar
Stourport on Severn ,Worcestershire, United Kingdom
Joined Dec 2007
4,833 Posts
Mark,
Stupid question time!

I have been studying different wings and have notice what looks to be ribs in some wings? On others the underside of the wing is also covered in material from the LE to about 1/2 way back? it may just be an optical illusion but I thought it better to ask someone who knows

Interesting stuff all this


Rich
SafeLandings is offline Find More Posts by SafeLandings
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15, 2012, 05:15 PM
flexwing addict
mark675's Avatar
midlands uk
Joined Sep 2004
2,676 Posts
Hi Rich,
on the older hang gliders and training gliders they use single surface which means its just got a top surface on the wing,
this leaves a concave section on the underside of the wing right after the leading edge which creates turbulance and adds drag to the wing,

the higher performance gliders use a 2nd skin on the underside of the wing to enclose this area,
youll see gliders with different percentages of a double surface,
some just enclose this concave, some half way and some reach almost right to the back of the wing and cover the crossbar, tipstruts and pretty much all of the frame work that will cause added drag,

the ribs if im understanding you right are battens to form the airfoil shape at the leading edge and also give some rigidity to the sail,
they can also be curved up at the back on the inboard sections, they call that reflex which is like up elevator on a plane and keeps the nose of the wing pointing up,
this also adds drag though so reflex is adjustable on some of the newer wings so you can adjust what trim speed you want
mark675 is offline Find More Posts by mark675
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15, 2012, 08:54 PM
Registered User
britinoz's Avatar
Elizabeth South Australia 5113
Joined Nov 2005
1,715 Posts
Very interesting................................you can never be to old to learn...................but the troube is at my age it's also pretty easy to forget...............
Chris.........
britinoz is offline Find More Posts by britinoz
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 16, 2012, 01:57 AM
flexwing addict
mark675's Avatar
midlands uk
Joined Sep 2004
2,676 Posts
Lmao Chris!

got loads more info about how these wings get pitch,roll and yaw stability but ill send you both a message and a link about it later
mark675 is offline Find More Posts by mark675
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 16, 2012, 05:10 PM
It was a GLITCH! Honestly!
SafeLandings's Avatar
Stourport on Severn ,Worcestershire, United Kingdom
Joined Dec 2007
4,833 Posts
Mark,
Thanks for the info, I have found some drawings online of the batterns you mentioned and their shape
Ok another daft question......what is a topless micro light? something to do with the rigging being missing on top?


Regards

Rich
SafeLandings is offline Find More Posts by SafeLandings
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 16, 2012, 05:30 PM
Registered User
britinoz's Avatar
Elizabeth South Australia 5113
Joined Nov 2005
1,715 Posts
Topless may be interesting......................
britinoz is offline Find More Posts by britinoz
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 17, 2012, 05:00 AM
flexwing addict
mark675's Avatar
midlands uk
Joined Sep 2004
2,676 Posts
no problem

all they do topless for is because cables cause alot of drag even though they are thin and so do round tubes,
youll see some of the 'A'frame, king post and even base bar on some hang glider type wings covered with a aerodynamic fairing this is obviously to cut drag from these parts that are exposed to the airflow.
you loose the kingpost and all the top landing wires so a significant reduction in parasitic drag (air resistance againt the aircraft)

you'd think that this would make them lighter but actually they are significantly heavier than wings with upper cables as the wing needs to be braced inside with some big carbon and alloy brackets (higher weight and lower drag equals more speed)

this isnt a problem on models wings though as you can get away with just using two solid carbon rods instead of the twin flying wires to take flying and ground forces.
i prefer the microlights with the kingpost though as they fly slower so more realistic and the extra cables make for a more scale look in my opinion

hope this helps
mark675 is offline Find More Posts by mark675
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 17, 2012, 05:33 AM
flexwing addict
mark675's Avatar
midlands uk
Joined Sep 2004
2,676 Posts
i started writing about stability in wings without tails but my internet went off and i lost it all! lol
stability in tailless wings is due to washout (twist in the wing towards the tips)
this is what gives the wing an 'm' shape from the back and means the tips fly at a lower angle of attack to the root of the wing.

heres the link to a site from where i learned alot about how these wings fly,
it is a very useful site and hope it helps you guys out

http://www.aerialpursuits.com/trikes....htm#stability
mark675 is offline Find More Posts by mark675
Last edited by mark675; Aug 17, 2012 at 05:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Aug 17, 2012, 02:36 PM
It was a GLITCH! Honestly!
SafeLandings's Avatar
Stourport on Severn ,Worcestershire, United Kingdom
Joined Dec 2007
4,833 Posts
Mark,
Thanks for the link mate, interesting stuff!..just read it on my tea break!


Rich
SafeLandings is offline Find More Posts by SafeLandings
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion rc microlight/ultralite/trike mark675 Scale Fuel Planes 151 Jul 19, 2012 05:00 AM
Build Log rc microlight /ultralight mark675 Scale Kit/Scratch Built 29 Mar 09, 2012 06:45 AM
rc microlight plans FlyingKiwi Electric Plane Talk 4 May 27, 2009 05:13 AM
Question Charlie's Microlight Series Classic II Rc Glider ?? old_dude Sailplane Talk 2 Sep 11, 2008 08:14 AM
Build Log rc microlight/ultralite/trike mark675 Foamies (Scratchbuilt) 11 Aug 29, 2008 09:25 AM