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Old Feb 24, 2012, 08:55 AM
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We, my friends and I, never went the FP route and you don't need to go the FP route. You can go directly to CP without crashing every time the tx is on and the batt. is connected to the heli. How? First, get a SIM. You don't need to spend endless hours on it. Just like learning guitar, 10 to 15 minutes a day to start. Second, get a quality heli that has so slop when properly assembled. Third, slow down the heli via tx settings. Fourth, use training gear.

Take your time as there is no need to rush into FF, FFF or 3D. One of the guys spent weeks doing tail-in hover and then moving the heli side-to-side.

Btw, why newbies crash? They get too nervous and thus unable to react/correct what the heli is doing.
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 10:12 AM
CP heli ≠ 3D heli
Gedexas's Avatar
United States, NJ, Point Pleasant Beach
Joined Mar 2009
1,674 Posts
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Originally Posted by TZZDC1241 View Post
I'll be honest in asking what DO you need to know as a noob before getting into a 400/450 class of heli's then? I see a lot of people point out HeliFreak in terms of info but with the amount of threads on there its a long read.

I'll admit I'm looking at a 400/450 class coming off a coaxial, I want a bird that is stable in some light winds and bigger is always better in the RC world. Before anyone says WAIT STOP!!! DON'T DO THAT!! GET A SIM!! I spend enough days in front of the computer and while I don't mind a sim its just not the same experience as flying these. The physics can be accurate on a sim but I guess I want to get out there with heli and trainer in hand, set it down, spin up and hit the controls gently to see what they do.

I am planning on buying a FP bird though I wouldn't mind taking it SLOW if I were to learn on a CP bird with all the settings turned down so I can't shoot 30ft in the air in half a second.
The problem with CP helis is they can't be made easy to fly by adjusting transmitter settings. Sure, you can use expo and stuff, but that does not make the heli easier to fly, it only makes the controls mushy. If you consider that portion of learning to be the hard part, then yes, D/R and expo will make it slow to respond and mushy. A CP heli with mushy sticks WILL CRASH just as well as one with twitchy sticks and both options will require same amount of skill to hover and fly.

If the cost of crashing worries you, you will pretty much have to learn with a sim, there's no way around that. You can't pick up a CP heli and fly right away without learning to fly first.

Here's a funny fact. I have never flown anything other than a CP, ever. Yesterday I bought a Blade CX2 for my brother's birthday, since he's scared of complex flying things, but wants to fly anyway. I was trimming it out to make sure it flies well, then I will hand it over to him. What I found out, it's not much easier to fly a CX2 compared to my 450pro. I either have a very stable 450 or a very unstable coax, either way, that's some food for thought for someone starting out.
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 10:30 AM
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United States, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by chopper62 View Post
We, my friends and I, never went the FP route and you don't need to go the FP route. You can go directly to CP without crashing every time the tx is on and the batt. is connected to the heli. How? First, get a SIM. You don't need to spend endless hours on it. Just like learning guitar, 10 to 15 minutes a day to start. Second, get a quality heli that has so slop when properly assembled. Third, slow down the heli via tx settings. Fourth, use training gear.

Take your time as there is no need to rush into FF, FFF or 3D. One of the guys spent weeks doing tail-in hover and then moving the heli side-to-side.

Btw, why newbies crash? They get too nervous and thus unable to react/correct what the heli is doing.
Yup I did the same thing. Funny thing is, now that I'm a good pilot, I somewhat enjoy the uprightness of the FPs

It takes discipline, and I think that's a huge thing lacking in today's youth, and in many older folks as well. It's not that they can't do it, it's that they don't, for whatever reason. Many times I think it's because disciplined approach (such as RADDs) seems less fun... but honestly, what is more fun, flying or crashing?
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 01:13 PM
AMA# 548800
jombo's Avatar
United States, CT, Trumbull
Joined Dec 2007
4,862 Posts
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Originally Posted by chopper62 View Post
We, my friends and I, never went the FP route and you don't need to go the FP route. You can go directly to CP without crashing every time the tx is on and the batt. is connected to the heli. How? First, get a SIM. You don't need to spend endless hours on it. Just like learning guitar, 10 to 15 minutes a day to start. Second, get a quality heli that has so slop when properly assembled. Third, slow down the heli via tx settings. Fourth, use training gear.

Take your time as there is no need to rush into FF, FFF or 3D. One of the guys spent weeks doing tail-in hover and then moving the heli side-to-side.

Btw, why newbies crash? They get too nervous and thus unable to react/correct what the heli is doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
Yup I did the same thing. Funny thing is, now that I'm a good pilot, I somewhat enjoy the uprightness of the FPs

It takes discipline, and I think that's a huge thing lacking in today's youth, and in many older folks as well. It's not that they can't do it, it's that they don't, for whatever reason. Many times I think it's because disciplined approach (such as RADDs) seems less fun... but honestly, what is more fun, flying or crashing?
i did go the fp and it was a waste of time , i think that was harder than CP . a sim will give you the reflexes to react properly to the heli and will keep you 2 steps ahead.
jasmine2501 said this in another post , dont let the heli fly you , you fly the heli . if you cant be 2 steps ahead of it and putting it where you want it (not letting it fly in one direction then panic to turn it) then your not ready for free flight and thats how you crash . i am guilty of that when i learned to fly and crashed 2 times till i just kept on the sim till i got it right .
but everyone is different , maybe it just takes others to crash more and spend more cash before they keep practicing on the sim
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 03:09 PM
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United States, CO, Silverthorne
Joined Feb 2012
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Originally Posted by Gedexas View Post
The problem with CP helis is they can't be made easy to fly by adjusting transmitter settings. Sure, you can use expo and stuff, but that does not make the heli easier to fly, it only makes the controls mushy. If you consider that portion of learning to be the hard part, then yes, D/R and expo will make it slow to respond and mushy. A CP heli with mushy sticks WILL CRASH just as well as one with twitchy sticks and both options will require same amount of skill to hover and fly.

If the cost of crashing worries you, you will pretty much have to learn with a sim, there's no way around that. You can't pick up a CP heli and fly right away without learning to fly first.

Here's a funny fact. I have never flown anything other than a CP, ever. Yesterday I bought a Blade CX2 for my brother's birthday, since he's scared of complex flying things, but wants to fly anyway. I was trimming it out to make sure it flies well, then I will hand it over to him. What I found out, it's not much easier to fly a CX2 compared to my 450pro. I either have a very stable 450 or a very unstable coax, either way, that's some food for thought for someone starting out.
I guess I am hitting a wall with the next step on heli's is since this is what I know:

Needs to fly at 9,000-10,000 ft elevation, not AGL. I've heard CP's with brushless motors are suited for this elevation and won't burn out as quickly as a FP heli.

FP or CP heli, definitely don't want another coaxial heli as I'd outgrow it in a few days. FP seems to be the next step up in terms of learning.

Bigger heli, I want to be able to fly outdoors in the winds with little trouble. I've seen the micro CP's and I just don't like the sizes. The Blade SR which is a FP bird would be a good size to learn on.

Quads - Yes I've seen someone recommend the mQX and really I have my heart set on a gaui or xaircraft if I plan on buying a quad.

Carry a GoPro camera. Yes I know this is typically quad territory for stable videos, etc but still would like a heli that I can learn on AND expand to include a go pro on it.

I'm thinking a 450 series heli either FP or CP would fit the bill in terms of being able to carry a camera later on as well as lasting me when learning. I realize crashing is inevitable and I'm prepared for that but if it takes me 10-20 packs to just learn how to hover then thats ok too.
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by TZZDC1241 View Post
I guess I am hitting a wall
YES, and it's made out of laws of physics. You're going to need to change your requirements. If you want to carry a GoPro at 10K feet ASL, you are not going to be doing it with a "stock" helicopter of any kind. We can fly at that altitude, but not with great performance and you are correct most FPs won't even get up. 6-7000 feet is where normal performance REALLY drops off hard.

The bottom line is... you need to get some experience first. You know the productivity triangle right? (Time, cost, features) You can only cut one at the expense of the other two. The triangle for this hobby is a little different - it's (Skill, money, knowledge) - you lack two of those, so if you have a lot of money, you're fine... send it to me and I'll fly your helicopters for you (which is what people in your position actually do).
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 07:42 PM
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United States, CO, Silverthorne
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Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
YES, and it's made out of laws of physics. You're going to need to change your requirements. If you want to carry a GoPro at 10K feet ASL, you are not going to be doing it with a "stock" helicopter of any kind. We can fly at that altitude, but not with great performance and you are correct most FPs won't even get up. 6-7000 feet is where normal performance REALLY drops off hard.

The bottom line is... you need to get some experience first. You know the productivity triangle right? (Time, cost, features) You can only cut one at the expense of the other two. The triangle for this hobby is a little different - it's (Skill, money, knowledge) - you lack two of those, so if you have a lot of money, you're fine... send it to me and I'll fly your helicopters for you (which is what people in your position actually do).
I assume a quad with larger rotors + upgraded motors might do better at this altitude in terms of payload? It's hard for me to believe that an FP heli simply won't fly vs it flying like complete crap due to no CP control and having to rev the engine harder to overcome the thin air out here?

Yes I'm aware of the triangle though skill is a product of usage and time collectively called experience and that all comes in good time with proper usage and though its lacked initially it can be gained depending on the speed I'm able to absorb and adapt at. Knowledge is somewhat a moot point since you can always gain knowledge depending on your interest in reading manuals, pouring over forums, asking around, reading manuals, youtube etc in search of knowledge. Money is another one of those luxuries where I can throw money at a product if it means I simply get something that's not complete crap to fly and learn on that, compared to something that maybe was $100-200 more and flies right from the start.

With that being said I have zero idea why I'd let a stranger fly my heli's for me in the highly unlikely event that the collective amount of skills and knowledge doesn't complete the aforementioned triangle above for me? I'll let you know in a year if I've managed to overcome some of the super leet skills and knowledge required to operate a heli (yes I've inserted some sarcasm).

Lucky for you I'm not some xbox generation tweeniebopper that wants a CP heli I can master in 5 minutes because thats how short my attention/patience/fun span is and thinks of the sticks on a radio as the same ones on an xbox. Please don't treat me or anyone else that's new to this like a child when responding. We're moving from civilized adults talking about a hobby we're both obviously passionate about into douchy know-it-all 'why are you even bothering' attitude, which I have an absolutely low to zero tolerance for.
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 08:11 PM
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I was kinda being sarcastic also... but seriously a lot of outfits out there buy expensive UAVs and hire pilots to fly them. It's a good opportunity if you can get it, and I was kinda being serious. If your goal is to do aerial photography, becoming a pilot isn't the only way to do it - you can also finance a UAV, or design a UAV. Our club has pilots who do test flights for a UAV company (we're talking $50-100K prototypes), and they have plenty of engineers and people like that and they built the thing, they just don't know how to fly, so to protect their investment, they hire an experienced pilot. I wasn't insulting you, I was serious that if your goal is to do aerial photography one way to do it is to buy a pricey UAV and have someone fly it while you take pictures. I was just suggesting that option with a sarcastic joke. You obviously seem to understand those, so what's the problem?

The other way to do this stuff is obviously to learn to fly and build your own stuff and I was merely pointing out some of the difficulties with that. You need to build your skills a bit before you can fly a UAV with sufficient performance to carry a camera and be stable and controllable at 10000 ft ASL.

Secondly, you're looking at FPs and 400-class helis which don't carry GoPros very well at my altitude, although they will carry it without the case - primarily size is the issue, not power. At the high altitude location, many FP helicopters won't get off the ground - the density of the air is just too low. The helicopter can not generate enough lift before the rotor basically stalls - adding larger blades can overcome this issue, but you need a stronger motor also. Then you will only have to deal with the issue of poor maneuverability.

SO, I was merely saying you need to alter your requirements somehow (bigger heli, no camera, wait a while, etc) and pointing out some of the reasons why. I'm not trying to be a bitch. I'm just a matter of fact person. Sometimes people take offense at that, but whatever - I don't control your reactions.
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 08:28 PM
CP heli ≠ 3D heli
Gedexas's Avatar
United States, NJ, Point Pleasant Beach
Joined Mar 2009
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Originally Posted by TZZDC1241 View Post
I'll let you know in a year if I've managed to overcome some of the super leet skills and knowledge required to operate a heli (yes I've inserted some sarcasm).
All kidding aside, it's very realistic that a year from now you will be learning to hover that CP heli tail in. Everyone learns at a different speed, but on average, I'm willing to bet, most people take about 6 months to a year to comfortably hover in all directions.

You can react to the above statement any way you please, but you'll have to try and see for yourself, these skills may not be leet, but they take time and discipline.
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
I was kinda being sarcastic also... but seriously a lot of outfits out there buy expensive UAVs and hire pilots to fly them. It's a good opportunity if you can get it, and I was kinda being serious. If your goal is to do aerial photography, becoming a pilot isn't the only way to do it - you can also finance a UAV, or design a UAV. Our club has pilots who do test flights for a UAV company (we're talking $50-100K prototypes), and they have plenty of engineers and people like that and they built the thing, they just don't know how to fly, so to protect their investment, they hire an experienced pilot. I wasn't insulting you, I was serious that if your goal is to do aerial photography one way to do it is to buy a pricey UAV and have someone fly it while you take pictures. I was just suggesting that option with a sarcastic joke. You obviously seem to understand those, so what's the problem?

The other way to do this stuff is obviously to learn to fly and build your own stuff and I was merely pointing out some of the difficulties with that. You need to build your skills a bit before you can fly a UAV with sufficient performance to carry a camera and be stable and controllable at 10000 ft ASL.

Secondly, you're looking at FPs and 400-class helis which don't carry GoPros very well at my altitude, although they will carry it without the case - primarily size is the issue, not power. At the high altitude location, many FP helicopters won't get off the ground - the density of the air is just too low. The helicopter can not generate enough lift before the rotor basically stalls - adding larger blades can overcome this issue, but you need a stronger motor also. Then you will only have to deal with the issue of poor maneuverability.

SO, I was merely saying you need to alter your requirements somehow (bigger heli, no camera, wait a while, etc) and pointing out some of the reasons why. I'm not trying to be a bitch. I'm just a matter of fact person. Sometimes people take offense at that, but whatever - I don't control your reactions.
Sarcasm doesn't really translate well online hence the confusion :\ Honestly UAV's seem boring to me in the long run as a hobby, it would be something strictly for business once the skies opened up.

Building my own heli is likely going to be a little beyond the scope of owning a heli while being a noob. I couldn't possibly imagine a list of parts that go into a heli right off the bat beyond the motor, gears, blades, ESC, battery and receiver, not to say I wouldn't be interested in it but it will come naturally with crashes and such.

So realistically at this altitude, baring the go pro idea, would be a larger CP heli which consequently is a PITA to fly let alone learn on? I don't mind the challenge mind you with the right gear and I may even head to colpar hobbies and look at real flight 6 if thats what everyones screaming BUT I prefer to learn on a real heli.

Also never called you a bitch I just didn't want the more experienced people to view my noobish comments as some little kid that got his first coaxial and wants to learn a CP heli in 5 minutes, break it then try and sell it.
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 09:49 PM
CP heli ≠ 3D heli
Gedexas's Avatar
United States, NJ, Point Pleasant Beach
Joined Mar 2009
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@TZZDC1241

Just get a sim, you don't need to pay for one, there are some free programs that will get you a reasonably good idea of how quickly you will crash. Even if you pay a hundred or two for a good simulator, you only need to crash a "real" 450 size heli a couple times before the simulator starts paying off.

This is coming from someone with 15 years of RC experience. I have flown planes since I was 10, you'd think I have orientation down, when I tried helicopters I found out that it took me another 3 months to learn to fly them before I took training balls off, if I did not practice on a simulator, my first few flights would have cost me a whole bunch of money. If you are completely green to RC, the last thing you want to do is pick up a "real" helicopter for your first flight. You have no idea how fast you will crash.

Believe me, a simulator is really worth the cash.
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Old Apr 27, 2012, 01:12 PM
ssnake
United States, TX, San Antonio
Joined Jan 2012
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A tad harsh on us retired guys who always wanted to fly birds when they were too expensive and yes now are affordable. But we now also have a wealth of information from you guys out there that we didn't have we we were young pups, and still got into helis. I got my coax for christmas and it started all over again just like a junkie. My next bird was a 500 and getting ready to maiden it. Scared sh**tless... but I was when I flew my pretty planks. I still flew them. I still crashed trhem. I'll still crash my heli. But what a gas!! LOL!! If you fly Fly inverted!
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Old Apr 27, 2012, 01:27 PM
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United States, MO, Springfield
Joined Jul 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TZZDC1241 View Post
Sarcasm doesn't really translate well online hence the confusion :\ Honestly UAV's seem boring to me in the long run as a hobby, it would be something strictly for business once the skies opened up.

Building my own heli is likely going to be a little beyond the scope of owning a heli while being a noob. I couldn't possibly imagine a list of parts that go into a heli right off the bat beyond the motor, gears, blades, ESC, battery and receiver, not to say I wouldn't be interested in it but it will come naturally with crashes and such.

So realistically at this altitude, baring the go pro idea, would be a larger CP heli which consequently is a PITA to fly let alone learn on? I don't mind the challenge mind you with the right gear and I may even head to colpar hobbies and look at real flight 6 if thats what everyones screaming BUT I prefer to learn on a real heli.

Also never called you a bitch I just didn't want the more experienced people to view my noobish comments as some little kid that got his first coaxial and wants to learn a CP heli in 5 minutes, break it then try and sell it.
a 500 size e powered heli should be fine it will just need more pitch but you wont be effected by loss of engine power like with a larger glow or loss of lift from the rotor like with a smaller e heli

i started with a 500 a sim and Radds
take your time do what Radds says use the sim as tool and not a game and youll be fine

by the way the T-rex 500E is a great heli price is right and it has every thing other then TX RX lipo and charger in one box
should take you a week end to get it built and helifreak has great build videos on the T-rex500
http://www.dream-models.com/eco/flying-index.html
http://www.performanceplusrc.com/ser...E-Super/Detail
take another 5% off that price atm as well
pick up a an icharger 206b setup from epbuddy and some cheap 6S 3000mAh or so lipos
DX6i and RX and your set
total investment ~$1000
PhoenixRC cost 130 or so as well and you can use the DX6i with it
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Old Apr 27, 2012, 03:08 PM
My other addiction!
norcalheli's Avatar
Marysville, Ca., US
Joined Jan 2007
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Originally Posted by Ssnake View Post
A tad harsh on us retired guys who always wanted to fly birds when they were too expensive and yes now are affordable. But we now also have a wealth of information from you guys out there that we didn't have we we were young pups, and still got into helis. I got my coax for christmas and it started all over again just like a junkie. My next bird was a 500 and getting ready to maiden it. Scared sh**tless... but I was when I flew my pretty planks. I still flew them. I still crashed trhem. I'll still crash my heli. But what a gas!! LOL!! If you fly Fly inverted!
If you are coming from a coax, and you're getting ready to maiden it with no sim and no-one to help you, I'd lay odds your first flight is less than five seconds. With only coax experience and nothing else, (planks aren't really going to help), you have no idea how quickly a 450 or 500 size heli will get away from you and find the nearest solid object to smash itself into!! And no playing the age card, many of us on here are late 50's into our 60's. Not trying to discourage you, but trying to caution you. (Mostly because you're trying to do what I tried to do, and it happened to me just as I described above.) Take it slow, learn how the heli reacts, and for cripe's sake get a sim! It will save you a ton of cash.
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Old Apr 28, 2012, 08:20 AM
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United Kingdom, England, Witham
Joined Feb 2011
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I think most noobs crash for one simple reason, and its the same reason as most seasoned flyers. An overestimation of ones abililities... All of my crashes have been when I have thought to myself "I think I'll try and....." usually quickly followed my the heli doing the dying chicken dance.

When I practice on the sim my wife takes great delight in saying "well thats saved you xxx euros" every time I crash
In my opinion a sim is one of the best teaching aid there is
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