HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Dec 03, 2011, 06:55 PM
FloridaFlyBob's Avatar
United States, FL, Fort Myers
Joined Nov 2011
1,220 Posts
I'm new to the sport. I have a 3 channel coaxal which I'm realizing now it mostly worthless, non standard controls and you can only fly indoors or 0 wind. I've been reading many posts on this forum as to what direction a beginner should take and I'm more confused now that ever. I really don't want to fly micro's indoors, and I don't have a lot of money to go through a half dozen heli's to progress to a cp, nor do I want to get a cp and make a lot of little pieces out of one big one. I started out with rc planes and thinking maybe I should stick with them. I have realflight g2 and g5 and a couple of the free ones. I can hover and do some basic manuvers. I just don't think I want to get another coaxal 4 channel, there almost is never a day when there isn't wind here at least not untill the summer. It seems tha a cp heli is the only one that can take even the slightest wind unless I'm more confused than I think I am. I was just reading Jazzys flight deck blog and he seems to think a cp is the way to go if I read it correctly. I have made a couple of post and was told DON"T DO IT.....So all I can say is Help!!
FloridaFlyBob is offline Find More Posts by FloridaFlyBob
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Dec 03, 2011, 06:59 PM
CP heli ≠ 3D heli
Gedexas's Avatar
United States, NJ, Point Pleasant Beach
Joined Mar 2009
1,674 Posts
The CP is the way to go, but only after you accept the risks and consequences. If, for example, I had kids, I simply could not afford helis, there are other people who can't, just like I can't afford a Ferrari. Planes are way cheaper, especially the small electric ones.
Gedexas is offline Find More Posts by Gedexas
Last edited by Gedexas; Dec 03, 2011 at 07:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 03, 2011, 09:49 PM
FloridaFlyBob's Avatar
United States, FL, Fort Myers
Joined Nov 2011
1,220 Posts
It was a lot easier with planes, get one with a high big wing and off you go. Fairly easy
FloridaFlyBob is offline Find More Posts by FloridaFlyBob
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 03, 2011, 10:45 PM
Registered User
United States, MO, Springfield
Joined Jul 2010
3,490 Posts
mSR and a good radio is great start
after that a sim and a mCP X is a great way to get CP heli
at lest get a mSR and DX6i and at some point a good sim like phoenix or realflight
later you can use the DX6i for the mCP X
Elios000 is offline Find More Posts by Elios000
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 03, 2011, 11:16 PM
Rocket Programmer
jasmine2501's Avatar
United States, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2007
25,358 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstekeur View Post
I'm new to the sport. I have a 3 channel coaxal which I'm realizing now it mostly worthless, non standard controls and you can only fly indoors or 0 wind. I've been reading many posts on this forum as to what direction a beginner should take and I'm more confused now that ever. I really don't want to fly micro's indoors, and I don't have a lot of money to go through a half dozen heli's to progress to a cp, nor do I want to get a cp and make a lot of little pieces out of one big one. I started out with rc planes and thinking maybe I should stick with them. I have realflight g2 and g5 and a couple of the free ones. I can hover and do some basic manuvers. I just don't think I want to get another coaxal 4 channel, there almost is never a day when there isn't wind here at least not untill the summer. It seems tha a cp heli is the only one that can take even the slightest wind unless I'm more confused than I think I am. I was just reading Jazzys flight deck blog and he seems to think a cp is the way to go if I read it correctly. I have made a couple of post and was told DON"T DO IT.....So all I can say is Help!!
If you have some help and you get quality stuff and practice with a simulator, you can learn with a CP, but it requires discipline and possibly parts too.
jasmine2501 is offline Find More Posts by jasmine2501
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 24, 2012, 06:45 AM
Registered User
United States, TN, Dyer
Joined Jan 2012
13 Posts
My goodness what a reading!!! I liked it all and you know learned something, I am doing the right thing after all...maybe made a blip in the process of my eagerness to learn CP, oh well.

Started out on a Christmas morning with a small coazial heli, not so many hours later, the following week, the mSR, yepp I got bitten...now you talk about a learning curve.
Everything this noob reads he takes to heart as anyone who takes the time to give me their lessons, some hard earned I know, I am willing to listen. I am not interested in the fluff but interested in the topic of learning how to fly my heli and having fun sharing it with others...you know to me it's like the first time I got my own car and drove around town...yep...i did...just like any of you ...think my teeth got sunburned that day from all the smiling...that is how I feel when I get the mSR up in the air make a circuit around the garage and land her back on the box...I know for some of you this is trivial but for me its an accomplishment...
Without all the long drawn out, detailed listing the boring, mundane issues I would not be where I am today...please keep telling me everything you can to help, I am so loving it...look mom its flying.
oldmanmsr is offline Find More Posts by oldmanmsr
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 28, 2012, 11:47 AM
Registered User
morris alabama
Joined Feb 2001
367 Posts
Start out with a 4 channel fixed pitch ready to fly like a Honey Bee or similar. You are going to crash and the fixed pitch ready to fly helis will withstand the abuse better than any CP that I know of. As an example if you spool up a CP and just tip it over you are looking at major repairs, expense, and down time. The HB will most likely be undamaged and ready to go again. CP is more complex and has more parts to break or bend and they will break or bend sometimes with just a minor accident.
tigermoth is offline Find More Posts by tigermoth
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 28, 2012, 07:43 PM
New... But havin' Fun!
sdot717's Avatar
United States, SC, Greenville
Joined Jan 2012
6 Posts
I will start by saying I am one of the newbies. I started with a Syma S107 and was flying that like I had it for years within a 3-4 flights. Not that hard I understand. I now have a Heli-Max Axe CX Nano and I'm enjoying learning how to control another aspect of the heli. I have wrecked it to a point that I have to do some work on it before it flies again. I got a little to big for my pants and crashed it hard.

Now to get to the point and the OP... I liked the information that was given. A lot! The way it was given was not the nicest, but give Imzzaudae the credit due. He was trying and he did make some very good points! I can say that before reading this post, I had the same idea that he gave about the stepping up to the CPs. My next heli will be a Walkera V120D01. I got the CXn for Christmas and I don't plan on getting the Walkera until I have either mastered the CXn or until Christmas of this year (which ever is sooner). Next step will be a CP Micro from Walkera, then I will step up in class from there. I understand that not everyone can spend the time or money on that type of step up, but it is still not a bad idea. It gives newbies the time to learn about different aspects of the helis.

So, some newbies may have or like the thought that Imzzaudae put out there. Some might get turned off by the length of time and the money being spent, but all-in-all Imzzaudae tried to put good information out there and just got beat up for it. Not a cool thing to do!

Imzzaudae Thank You for the Post!
sdot717 is offline Find More Posts by sdot717
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 07, 2012, 08:39 PM
Registered User
Joined May 2011
417 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imzzaudae View Post
I would have to say that the #1 reason new model helicopter pilots crash is lack of knowledge! The first thing anyone that has been flying model helicopters for a while will tell a beginner is get a simulator, Practice on the simulator and study. Although the new gyros available today make model helicopters considerably easier to fly than previous generations, you still need a general understanding of it's control system, and you have to fly the helicopter 100% of the time!

The problem beginners face is, you cannot stop and think while flying!
Once you lift the helicopter off the ground, the helicopter is naturally unstable and requires the pilot to keep telling it where ( not ) to go all the time. About once every 2 or 3 seconds. These corrections are minute stick moments and it takes a bit of flying time to get your head and fingers working, without thinking move thumb. It soon becomes like riding a bike, you just stop falling over and ride but your going to skin your knee the first few times.

Helicopters with a tail rotor!
Say you set your new helicopter on the floor set all the trims in the centre and give it throttle. The helicopter goes up and left.
You see it, think about it, then it takes time to think move the right stick right. Then you move the stick a bit. During the time you where seeing it, thinking move stick then move finger the helicopter was off getting into trouble. Your beautiful new helicopter is broken before you even moved the stick.
WHY
The main rotor blades are being driven clockwise by the centre shaft of the motor. Now for every action there is an equal and apposite reaction so the outer housing of the motor is trying to spin the helicopter the opposite direction. That's OK as long as the helicopter is sitting on the ground.
The friction of the skids on the ground keeps the helicopter from spinning.

But as soon as the torque of the motor becomes more than the friction of the skids on the ground the helicopter will spin out of control counter clockwise.

So we put a fan on the back of the helicopter that blows sideways and stop the tail from spinning.

Now we can stop the tail from spinning counter clockwise but the sideways fan blows the helicopter left all the time. We have no choice but to tip the helicopter just a smidgen right in order to stop the sideways drift caused by the tail rotor. In a hover the helicopter must be tipped right all the time
or it will drift left. You cannot change this. When the helicopter is sitting on the ground it cannot tip so just as the helicopter is starting to lift you must add just a little right aileron to stop it being blown left. This is tricky at first but becomes natural after a few thousand takeoffs. Once up you can trim the helicopter so it does not drift so much but it will still need your constant attention or it will be off getting into trouble again and again.

Take off
The hard part of taking off with a tail rotor helicopter is spooling the helicopter up and just as it begins to lift, you must input a little right aileron to hold the helicopter in place and add power.

This is a delicate operation not enough aileron and the helicopter drifts left. To much and you flip over and bust a blade or worse. This is an acquired skill not that hard, but will take a little practice before your doing picture perfect liftoffs!




The Solution
Why 4 Chanel coaxial helicopters make good 1st helicopters.
Coaxial helicopters have 2 motors and 2 sets of blades that spin in opposite directions. They cancel out the torque of each other and we don't need a fan at the back to stop it from spinning.
No fan on the back equals no blowing sideways!
In order to turn the helicopter we slow down one motor just a bit and the torque of the other motor turns the helicopter. Coaxial helicopters also tend not to wander and will correct themselves if you just let the stick centre. New pilots get a chance to think move the stick and learn how to move the helicopter around without the helicopter constantly wanting to take off in a different direction every 2 seconds.

A good place to start

Any good quality 4 Chanel coaxial helicopter would be a great place to start flying. The Blade MCX2 is a very nice helicopter and will provide new or 1st time helicopter pilots with the necessary motor skills required, before attempting a signal rotor fixed pitch helicopter like the MSR.

This is where the inherent stability of a coaxial comes in. If the trims are centred on the radio when you push the throttle up, the helicopter will rise pretty much straight up. It may spin a bit, just land and trim it out with a little rudder trim. Then take off again, gently move the helicopter forward a little bit with the right stick.

Big stick movements make big helicopter moments.
Don't make big stick moments or corrections you will end up out of control!

After a few flights you should be able to take off, rise straight up and hover.
Turn left, right fly all over the room and land without the helicopter running into things like lamps and walls. Practice takeoffs and landings fly around the room sideways nose in nose out fly forward backwards try everything you can think of to challenge yourself and have fun!

This is teaching your eyes, brain and fingers to work together without you having to stop and think about it. Now move the rods from the short balls to the long balls on your swash plate!

Learn how to handle a helicopter that handles a little more aggressively.

RC Flight Simulator

Find a flight simulator and try flying the helicopter with training gear!
Remember keep the tail pointed at you all the time.
Trim it up nice and remember about lean right on takeoff..
Practice takeoffs landings and hovering. This is going to drive you nuts as the simulator is not at all easy. If you practice for an hour every night, after a week you will be able to take off kind of hover in a place 10 feet square maybe even land in one peace. After 30 days you should be able to take off hover fly around a bit and land without crashing.
This is going to be very hard work !

The helicopter will over react to stick input and will continually drift away on you. Don't give up. Move it around a bit and back to hover. This is going to be very hard work! Practice practice practice and it will come to you.

Although when the helicopter starts moving it seems like an emergency it's not. Force yourself to move the sticks dead slow and gently as you can.
This is the key.
keep the tail pointed at you all the time.
Make each correction in 2 parts. First very gently tip the helicopter in the opposite direction of its drift. Relax and just tip it a little bit, let it slow down and stop easily. At the moment it stops ever-so gently level it out. Then very gently add input to tell it where you want it to go. Stop it when it's where you want it. Slow moments and gentle is the key.
keep the tail pointed at you all the time.
If you feel the stick move you moved it to much!
It's like thinking the helicopter to move.

Relax you are going to crash. Take a deep breath hit restart and try again.
Do not allow yourself to get upset. Just relax and try again.
It's not personal!

In Real Flight fly the impala with training gear it will be all over the park going every witch way and drive you nuts but in time you will get it. Once your up move it around a bit instead of just hovering.

Fly it down the runway stop. turn and come back stop turn away hover.

After you can hover move around a bit go ahead and try a coordinated turn.
Hit restart take off hover. Go ahead coordinated turn.
Hit restart take off hover. Go ahead coordinated turn.
Hit restart take off hover. Go ahead coordinated turn.
As you turn keep pushing the tail out as it comes around. That's the key.
Bank easy push the tail around and a little up elevator so it does not nose dive into the ground.

You will have you own pet name for the impala like that little bas ohhhh you little scream. In the end you will see the hummer of it all. And you will be able to fly your helicopter. There is no simulator that feels like a helicopter bouncing around the room in front of you so don't forget about your coaxial fly it every day, fly it forward backward sideways nose in nose out.

This is important as it is getting you ready for a tail rotor helicopter that drifts around and is letting your mind and fingers work together.


YOU CANNOT FLY A COLECTIVE PITCH HELICOPTER

Do not buy one!
No matter what it tells you on the box.
No matter what the guy that can't fly a helicopter at the hobby shop tries to sell you.
Don't go buying a Collective pitch helicopter and expect to be able to fly it. You CAN'T!
You will trash it as soon as it's off the ground. That's if you get it off the ground.

You will need a good Fixed pitch trainer like an MSR.
Learning to take off properly and move an MSR around will take months of practice.
I highly suggest an MSR so you can fly an hour a day in the house or garage.
Take a large peace of cardboard. 1 meter square.
In the centre mark a 12 square box out of green masking tape to set the helicopter in.

Rule #1 Keep the helicopters tail pointed at you at all the times. Tail control is paramount!
Rule #2 Make the helicopter stay over the cardboard.
Rule #3 Read rule #1 again and again.
Practice takeoffs and hover tail towards you. Move the helicopter around just a bit.
Tail always towards you. When it drifts away gently move it back over the cardboard.

Learning this simple skill will take time.
Don't rush it.

A well trimmed helicopter will make all the difference.
If the helicopter constantly wants to drift left. Land and move the aileron trim a click right.
If it wants to go ahead. land and move elevator trim 1 click back.
If it spins trim the rudder the opposite way until it stops spinning.
Keep trimming one click at a time until the helicopter settles down.

Don't forget that the MSR is a high performance indoor helicopter. Hit the gas and it's going past your head like a bullet. Remember the simulator. Gentle on the right stick.
This is a nice helicopter if you go easy but it turns into an unmanageable beast if you start banging the
right stick around.

Takeoff, hover,slow forward and land practice every day for a month
Then work on coordinated turns.






Forward flight and turns.
When in a stationary flight, hovering you can simply add rudder and steer the nose of the helicopter where you want it pointed.

While flying forward in order to turn your helicopter you need to do what is called a coordinated turn.

Imagine the helicopter is moving forward away from you.
You want to turn right.

Add a little right aileron and bank right. At the same time you must push the tail around behind the direction of flight with the rudder. Then you must add elevator up to hold the nose or the helicopter will slide down into the ground.

So it requires a little bank right, lots of push tail around and up elevator all at the same time to make the helicopter bank and come around to the right.

Left turn.
Bank left push tail around behind and add up elevator

This is also an acquired skill it is not at all easy and will take many many hours of practice to make the helicopter do graceful bank turns. Practice on the simulator.

Stall turns.
While in forward flight. Pull up hard, as the helicopters nose pitches up and the helicopter stops.
add a lot of right rudder and snap the tail around so the nose now points down. Let the helicopter move ahead and down. Add up elevator and fly away. This is also best practised on the simulator the first few times.

Once proficient with a small fixed pitch helicopter like the MSR try a 120SR for outdoor hover, fast forward and coordinated turn practice for an extended period of time. 6 months or more.

You will gain valuable flying and situational awareness experience with a simple easy to fly and repair helicopter like the 120SR. It's not a matter of I might crash. It's a given. You are going to crash 500 times! You need a helicopter that is easy to fix, affordable and a ready supply of spare parts.







Taking the big step up to collective pitch.

Please take a year and learn how to fly a fixed pitch helicopter well. Indoors and out. While you are learning to fly. Study all you can about Collective pitch helicopters, gyro's, radio setups for flying them.
There are all kinds of people out there more than willing to take your money and sell you a beautiful 3D 400 knowing full well you do not stand a chance of flying the helicopter. After your year flying a Fixed pitch helicopter and your simulator. Before jumping into a 400 class collective pitch helicopter go get an MCPX and a good radio. Spend as much time as you can learning how it handles. Only then will you be prepared to attempt a 400 class collective pitch helicopter.

Ron

I would venture to say that this is one of the best post on this entire site. Flying helicopters especially collective pitch is a very daunting task for someone who has never flown R/C Aircraft.
mugen 1 is offline Find More Posts by mugen 1
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 08, 2012, 02:56 AM
Registered User
United Kingdom
Joined Feb 2012
14 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imzzaudae View Post
I would have to say that the #1 reason new model helicopter pilots crash is lack of knowledge! The first thing anyone that has been flying model helicopters for a while will tell a beginner is get a simulator, Practice on the simulator and study. Although the new gyros available today make model helicopters considerably easier to fly than previous generations, you still need a general understanding of it's control system, and you have to fly the helicopter 100% of the time!
While I'm not going to argue against a simulator and would concede that using the SIM I have (heli-x) would have made me think a bit more about control once in the air, I do not belive it would have prepared me for the bulk of the bangs I had. I've not had it do the skidding sideways (and into tables, chairs, etc. - I've only got about 4ft square for take off indoors) I was doing with the real thing. Nor would it prepare me for set up questions - one of my "RTF" for example shot backwards until I adjusted the swash...

As for the control system, I think the basics of what happens is easy enough to see by moving the joysticks and observing the swash plate, etc. The gyros seem to me to complicate this and I'm still not really clear on some of this.

I've worked out that the tail one in all one of mine tries to hold postion so if for example you crash, put it back to the take off point and try again the tail will probably spin to where pointing before so it seems saftest power off and start again but one of mine has a 3 axis "balanced mode and "normal" mode and another 6 axis and 3 axis modes and the documentation as to what they actually do seems poor to me.

I think with my CB100, the flybar handles the balance? but as far as I can make out with the others to some degree or other a processor in the receivers is taking command, perhaps in the case of the 6 axis on in my Genuis CP (which I still haven't got flying properly but I now think I have damaged a part on in an early crash) which at times has seemed to have a mind of its own to the point where it works out where your position should be according to the inputs it receives?

I suppose one might question whether a beginner needs to know this or not but I found myself fiddling with the pots on the gyros to get the helis as controllable as I could for me.

Anyway, I'm not arguing with what you are saying, I'm just trying to give where I personally have found my biggest problems and puzzlements starting out with these things.
jonbanjo is offline Find More Posts by jonbanjo
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 08, 2012, 10:27 AM
Registered User
kerwin50's Avatar
winston mo
Joined Oct 2006
7,500 Posts
Does a nice 3 axis gryo help when trying to learn on a cp. I was really thinking about the Blade sr but I don't know if I can do the coordinated turns real well.
Still I was thinking if I only go very slow in forward flight that I can do it.
I've been flying an MCX for awhile now and have even flown an msr to some degree.
I've been flying fixed wing for years.
I was thinking of a heli to putt around outside as my wife really doesn't like indoor flying, and I've heard CP flys alot better in a 5 to 10 mph wind
kerwin50 is offline Find More Posts by kerwin50
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 08, 2012, 10:51 AM
Registered User
United States, MO, Springfield
Joined Jul 2010
3,490 Posts
no it will not make fly any easier
you will still have to fly a coordinated turn just the same
IT WILL keep it from getting blown around in the wind
the mCP X is great for flying in front of your home and will handle winds up 15mph once you know how to fly

the SR is junk stay way any thing else under a 450 but 450s and up are to big to fly in the street safely
the mCP X is the only CP heli under a 450 id recommend the Flybarless system in it does a great job of making it fly like a MUCH bigger heli
Elios000 is offline Find More Posts by Elios000
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 23, 2012, 04:16 PM
Registered User
Joined Feb 2012
4 Posts
@Imzzaudae - Thank you for the informative article, I'm brand new to the hobby, flew a coaxial 'toy' for a few months (4 channel) and now I try to fly a Blade 120 SR. Like you said, the key is practice, its amazing how different a single rotor FP is from a coaxial, and I'm thankful the 120 SR is actually somewhat durable (haven't broken anything yet after several crashes). I'm about to move to a DX6i radio to get into programmable settings and will stick with this bird for about a year, hopefully by then I'll be ready for a CP. Thanks again for the good advice.
ehasoon is offline Find More Posts by ehasoon
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 23, 2012, 08:43 PM
Once you taste flight...
skydvejam's Avatar
United States, VA, Fort Belvoir
Joined Dec 2011
2,757 Posts
I suppose I would qualify as a noob, I have around about 3 and a half- 4 months stick time with heli's. I started with a airhogs 3 channel, and several other 3 channels paid the price for my learning, as well as how cruddy they worked. Then I got a nine eagles solo pro, and my eyes were opened. It was a lot harder to fly, but so much more fun than any coaxial. I have broke more pieces on the solo pro, but upgraded a few items. Now I fly FFF circuits indoors until I take a turn wrong and typically hit a wall at high speeds, more often than not without any damage.
I got a DX6i, mSRx and mCPx with taxes, as well as a mCX2 for the wife and daughter. I have since acquired another Solo pro for the wife, as well as to cycle though the birds for constant flights.
I fly the mCPx ok so far, I have upgraded the grips, broke those after 2 flights and a rough landing and the head. I have broke a few parts trying to invert it, I am working more on my turns and hovering it in any orientation.
I must agree that the mCPx is not a easy heli to fly right off of the bat, even worse if you are starting off indoors, but if you do some progressing it is doable.
As for the mSRx, it is good for hovering practice when there are kids/spouses around that you do not want around for the mCPx, but it's flight characteristics seems to me to leave a lot to be desired. I can race it around in FFF and FBF but making any type of smooth turn is more than a little tough. Fun but the FBL system seems a little weird on a FP heli. It could be that I am new to heli's but it is fun to hover and worked great to get a feeling of what hovering the mCPx would be like.
skydvejam is offline Find More Posts by skydvejam
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 24, 2012, 01:31 AM
Registered User
United States, CO, Silverthorne
Joined Feb 2012
113 Posts
I'll be honest in asking what DO you need to know as a noob before getting into a 400/450 class of heli's then? I see a lot of people point out HeliFreak in terms of info but with the amount of threads on there its a long read.

I'll admit I'm looking at a 400/450 class coming off a coaxial, I want a bird that is stable in some light winds and bigger is always better in the RC world. Before anyone says WAIT STOP!!! DON'T DO THAT!! GET A SIM!! I spend enough days in front of the computer and while I don't mind a sim its just not the same experience as flying these. The physics can be accurate on a sim but I guess I want to get out there with heli and trainer in hand, set it down, spin up and hit the controls gently to see what they do.

I am planning on buying a FP bird though I wouldn't mind taking it SLOW if I were to learn on a CP bird with all the settings turned down so I can't shoot 30ft in the air in half a second.
TZZDC1241 is offline Find More Posts by TZZDC1241
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion Trex 450 MD500 Crash....Why? gmbnj Scale Helicopters 24 Jul 01, 2011 04:35 PM
Discussion and Why wouldn't it crash into the lake? Wookster Crash Discussion 3 Jun 21, 2011 05:48 PM
Discussion Newbies, post your crash videos here. racin06 Beginner Training Area (Heli-Electric) 3 Dec 24, 2009 02:07 PM
Discussion Newbies...post your crash videos here. racin06 Beginner Training Area (Aircraft-Electric) 7 Dec 23, 2009 07:17 AM
Why is the Easy Star so highly regarded for Newbies? Jonger1150 Beginner Training Area (Aircraft-Electric) 36 Jul 21, 2005 11:54 PM