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Old Nov 22, 2011, 04:25 PM
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Ralph:
I am an A-10 nut. In 1994 four of us in denver each built some large A-10's (built from Josh Harel plans) based on the Davis Montham tail numbers at the field at the time. I still have the #2 plane built. It is 120" span (22" chord and 4.5" thick wing at root), 108" long. Weighed 53 lbs and "flew" (I use the term loosely) on 2 dynamx fans and OS 91's. I am in the process of converting some of my Dynamax fans and next year I hope to build another one as an EDF. In the 1970 and 80's I spent 12 years at Edwards so I know how "tough" it is to have to work at a place like Edwards or DM. Enclosed a few photos. The photos were taken at Chatfield State Park in Denver (home of the former Denver Jet Rally which I CD'd) in 1994. The camo A-10 is owned by A10flyr (here on RCG). I still have the gray one. Just FYI, the main tires are 7" diamater dubros and the nose is 4.5" diamater.

AirSally:
PM sent.

Ed
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Old Nov 22, 2011, 04:28 PM
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Ed, I bet you can't wait for the "new" A-10 to come out. one of the guys on the forum is working on the new one, but he won't say anymore than that, till he's allowed to tell us by the company. I can't wait for it. it sounds like it's gonna be much better than the old one.
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Old Nov 22, 2011, 04:55 PM
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LuvEvolution7:
Not sure I am aware of the plane/build. I have had some conversations with a few guys that are building two of the planes offered by A10flyr. The four planes we built were never intended to be kitted but A10flyr(Dean) ended up getting the molds when Ivan Munninghoff (one of the other team members) suddenly passsed away. As I understand it, Dean has sold or is still selling short kits. If you do a search on this forum for "large A-10 115" by Dean Lassek" or something similar, you will see that I have made a couple of posts telling the "story" of the planes and the trials and tribulations. At the time the models were finished and flying, they were some of the biggest, if not the biggest, ducted fan jets out there. They were bigger than any of Byrons. Let me know if you or anyone would like additonal info. I enjoy sharing this story as it is a story of the difficulty in trying to get one of these to fly on the available power and more importantly the 50-100 oz torque servos we were trying to use.

I am really "amped" about this as the A-10 is so unique. You just don't see many of them flying as models (I mean A-10 of significant size) now days. I recall that when I flew the model everyone just stopped and watched me try not to crash the darn thing. LOL. If my wallet can afford it I have every intention of building one as an EDF. I think that given how much technology and materials have advanced since we first started the project in 1993, we should be able to build one at around 40-45 lbs.

Anyway, that's all for now,
Ed
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Old Nov 22, 2011, 05:00 PM
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oh, sorry, I should have clarified a bit better............I meant the new, full size A-10 replacement. should be awesome!!!!!!!
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Old Nov 22, 2011, 05:02 PM
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I'm always up for hearing more info on this bird. I'de love to build one. I remember seeing Josh's F-16 in a magazine and wanted one of those too. I'm sure lots of guys would subscribe to that thread if you started one. I know I would.
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Old Nov 22, 2011, 05:18 PM
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Yep

Ed,

I been to Chatfield State Park in Denver for the Jet Rally, I met you and most of the crew there. Dean, Ivan and I also had much fun at Superman Jet Rally back in the days. Yep, I helped Ivan chase the engine pods of Dean's plane when it was DF. I still never get tired of the HOGS specially with the new wings and new engines on the full size, they really show off with them here.

Regards,
Ralph "Turbulence" Salgado
CRCJA = Our old club California Radio Cntrol Jet Assocaition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A10pilot View Post
Ralph:
I am an A-10 nut. In 1994 four of us in denver each built some large A-10's (built from Josh Harel plans) based on the Davis Montham tail numbers at the field at the time. I still have the #2 plane built. It is 120" span (22" chord and 4.5" thick wing at root), 108" long. Weighed 53 lbs and "flew" (I use the term loosely) on 2 dynamx fans and OS 91's. I am in the process of converting some of my Dynamax fans and next year I hope to build another one as an EDF. In the 1970 and 80's I spent 12 years at Edwards so I know how "tough" it is to have to work at a place like Edwards or DM. Enclosed a few photos. The photos were taken at Chatfield State Park in Denver (home of the former Denver Jet Rally which I CD'd) in 1994. The camo A-10 is owned by A10flyr (here on RCG). I still have the gray one. Just FYI, the main tires are 7" diamater dubros and the nose is 4.5" diamater.

AirSally:
PM sent.

Ed
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Old Nov 22, 2011, 05:46 PM
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I have sent Dean an e-mail asking if he is still making all of the glass parts. The four man team was Dean Lassek, Ivan Munninghoff, Herb Heaton and me. Dean and I did the plugs for the fuse and nacelles. Ivan did the molds for all of the glass and he and a few of us did the layups. We also shared in cutting the foam for the wings, tails and vertical stabs. The wings used a 4'x8'x5" thick sheet of foam per plane. Wings were about 22" chord at the root and about 18" at the tip with tons of undercamber. Ailerons we about 6" chord and 22" long. It was a lot of work for a little 100 inch ounce servo to move the aileron.

Dean built plane #1 (the camo one pictured above, and #3 which was gray like mine) and the fourth member of the group (Herb Heaton) built #4. Plane #1 was all one piece wing and one piece fuse and the other three had three piece wings and two piece fuses. #1 weighed 43 lbs w/o fuel and mine weighed 53 w/o fuel. Herb's plane weighed about 45 lbs. Dean and I flew ours with Dynamax fans and OS 91 while Herb flew his on K&B 82's using the large 7" fan that Josh proposed. On the 7" fan, we started by cutting some Tornado 10x7 three bladed props down but the baldes were very flexible and the pitch flattened out at high rpm. We then went to graupner 10x 7" 3 balded props cut down to about 7" diamater. The Graupners didn't like a lot of rpm and once we got above about 14k, they tended to shed blades. Herb, who is a machinist by trade, designed and machined a spinner backplate that captured the graupner hub and the root of the blades. Problem solved.

I don't recall if Dean's #1 flew first or if mine did. However, when I was balancing mine, I thought that since the inboard sections were constant chord and the outer panels were double tapered, I would treat the wing like a constant chord wing and use 25% MAC. I measured 25% back from the LE at the root and balanced the plane. Ended up having to add 9.5 POUNDS of lead to the nose. That may seem like a lot (and it is) but remember, the horiz and vertical stabs weighed 3 lbs and they were 60" aft of the CG. The engines/fans/pipes, throttle servo and header tanks weighed 7+ lbs and they were about 48" aft of the CG. With all of that weight aft of the CG, I needed lots of lead in the nose. I have some of the early test flights on tape somewhere (they are on VHS so I have to convert to DVD) and it is clear that the plane was tail heavy. After about three flights I contacted an A-10 driver and he told me the full scale A-10 CG was at 17.5 % MAC. I moved the Cg and the plane flew much better.

Another problem we encountered (that I think you will still encounter with a large undercambered wing like the A-10) was that the ailerons were so big and had so much undercamber that in level flight, the TE of the aileron was deflected upward about 1 inch above the te of the wing. We were overpowering the aileron servo. We tried ganging two 100 in oz servos together with no luck. Finally, I looked back on some of my documentation on the full scale plane and noticed they had a tab on each aileron. This is not a trim tab as much as it is a tab that at 0 degerees aileron deflection, is up about 15-20 degrees. It turns out that the tab is up to relieve the load on the aileron actuator caused by the undercamber of the wing/aileron. I cut a tab out of each aileron TE (6" long x 1.5" wide) and glued it up at a 30 degree angle. Aileron deflection problem solved.

ANother problem we had wa that the landing gear on mine and Herb's planes were made by Herb. He did the first set of gear (3/4" OD 6061 aluminum tube) were too flexible for the plane. He remanufactured the gear using 5/8" chrome moly steel. The scissors were injection molded nylon (again done by Herb). Recall that the wheel on the mains is not on the strut center line. It is on the outside of the strut so when the tire touches the ground and spins up with the load of a 53 lb plane, the torque and the load on the scissors is quite significant . About four of the landings resulted in the mains gear snapping the scissors and the wheels turning 90 degrees. this causes the plane to stop quite suddenly and resulted in broken landing gears and various parts of the plane. A friend of mine in Austin (Mike Kulyzk) machined aluminum scissors for me and the scissor problem was sloved. Long time jet guys will recognize Mike as a tremendously talented modeler. he had one of the early large single engine ducted fans (F-84 straight wing).

After 1994/95 Dean converted his second plane (#3) to Ram turbojet engines and it looked like it flew much better that the underpowered ICDF planes. When I finally retired my A-10 in about 1999, it weighed 63 lbs (remember it had been flown a lot and broken a lot as it was one of the prototypes) and it took about 800' of runway.

One of the really nice things about the plane is even though it had a wing loading of about 55 oz /sq. ft, it flew well and landed extremely well and very slowly. The only problem is that as with a lot of marginally powered jets, it bleeds energy very quickly.

anyway, those are some of the lessons learned.

Ed
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Old Nov 22, 2011, 06:41 PM
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Ralph:
I do remember the crcja. Did it fold?

You know there are probably a lot of the old ICDF guys on these threads. We should start a post for the "old guys" and have them identify themselves and let's tell some stories of the old days. LOL

Sorry, I didn't see that you had posted when I made my most recent post. I really enjoyed the Denver Jet rally, although it was a lot of work. I remember when I moved to Denver in 1990 there were about 2 jet guys (me and a JEFCO club member) and when I moved back to Texas in 1995 there were about 20 jet guys. I was also saddened when I found out Ivan had passed away. He was a wealth of knowledge and always had a lot of good stories.

I recall one time when Ivan and I went to Austin to fly in one of their jet events. If you ever saw my A-10 fly you know that it took a lot of runway. Well since the Austin runway was only 450' long, my plane needed some help. I taxied out to the end of the runway. Ivan held the plane by the tail and when I told him to release the plane he ended up running down the runway pushing the airplane with his hand placed on the back end of the fuse. The plane got airborne despite his help. It as really funny and classic.

I remember going to the Superman event with some of the Austin guys (Bob Kovish, Lloyd Ligon and Bill and Gwen Kinney) after I moved back to Texas. I have some incriminating photos of Bob Kovish standing under and next to the Superman statue with his hands in some inappropriate places. Remember Garland Hamilton? I remember seeing him at Superman running the length of the runway when a BVM T-33 crashed (this was with the JPX engines with the propane tank). He carried that 20 lb extinguisher a long way at full run. Really well conditioned gunney.

I remember Dean loosing and engine pod on his A-10 at Denver Jet Rally and a LOT of people chasing the nacelle and engine, which was running at full throttle, around. Another classic "jet moment".

Guess that's all,
Ed
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Old Nov 22, 2011, 06:56 PM
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What Did You Fly

Ralph:
After looking at your last name it sounds very familiar. Sometimes I remember people by the planes they fly. What were you flying when you attended the Denver Jet rally. I have lot of photos of those days. Perhaps I can find one with you in it.

Ed Valls
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Old Nov 22, 2011, 07:01 PM
Fly allot, Crash allot, next?
United States, CA, Corona
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Steveair2:

Besides joking allot here on the site, I have been flying full scale planes for over 20 years, owned at least 30, the best three being an SNJ 5, another being a Shrike Commander, another being a Cessna 414. I owned the whole Beech line of twins and also the Cessna line of twins. Flew each and every one, one by one, till I got bored and sold them. I usually owned multiple planes at the same time...great fun, and a great investment back then. Buy em, get checked out in em, fly em, sell em at a profit.

Went to every air show on the West Coast and mainly flew in with one of my own aiplanes as part of a group and we camped under the wings. Got to fly in a few civilian jets and was invited into the cabin of an Alaska Air Jet. Let me tell ya, my Shirike radios were more modern than the commercial jet radios back then. I installed the best avionics in my planes, had them painted, upholstered and still sold them at a profit. Now comes the killer comment.

I always liked watching airplanes better than flying them. Flying in todays environment is hard work, even years ago, it was work. Navigating while in instrument conditions was very hard work, no GPS back then, and Loran was innaccurate. Flying civilian or military: Take it seriously or your dead, quite the contrary with RC.

Tinkering with RC is fun, relaxing, challenging, the hobby is filled with down to earth people. So what if we pretend and dream about the real thing, anyone can fly the real thing, but to me the thrill doesn't last that long, when you get used to it, the Wow is gone.

Aviation: Ya gotta love it..and it looks like we all do.

I love to post up this video, I may joke, but I don't BS.

The other sounds you hear are those of modified singles also doing fly byes, we played follow the leader.

Showing Off at Watsonville (4 min 10 sec)
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Old Nov 22, 2011, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STEVEAIR2 View Post
Every time I look at this thread there seems to be more and more people who get to play with the real planes as well as Models. "WHY"!!! When you get to play with the real deal! Whats the attraction.
One thing I like about this Site is that the common theme is jets or planes or some thing associated with planes. But there seems to be real pilots on here who still enjoy models, Why!!! I would love to know the reason? I would consider myself a wanna be pilot but just never got there.I have no interest in your Cessna's but give me some of the toys you guys get to play with and i will work for free.
Cheers
Steve.
Well in my case, I started in RC when I was about 9 or 10 yrs old. Mainly into gliders and sailplanes and a little glow here and there. Got busy with college, then joined the AF and went to pilot training. I finished pilot training and needed a hobby, so I had quite a bit of the radio gear and slowly reinvested in better, newer stuff, and progressively into stuff like EDF and its been almost 20 years later. My job is extremely busy with 10-12 hour days, multiple deployments, TDY's, etc. but its always nice at the end of the day or after a deployment to mess with RC in the shop or go out and fly. I love flying full scale, but RC is still a blast too and sometimes can be equally an adrenaline rush (almost!). I have been around airplanes all my life, its in my blood and its an something I love to be a part of....simple as that!
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Old Nov 22, 2011, 09:15 PM
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JetnFast:
I am prior Air Force. Thanks for your service. What do you fly for Uncle Sam?

ScaleFan:
I like you Shrike Commander. Nice job of "showing off". I have always thought it was one of the most beautiful propeller planes around. Also, there is nothing like a twin, be it prop or jet. Afer watching your video, it brings to mind an incident that occured many years ago when I was at Edwards. The Air Force Test Pilot School (TPS) used T-33's to teach test pilots how to correctly spin and recover a plane while collecting engineering data. As some of you know, the aft section of the T-33 was removable to allow for engine changes. About every 100 hours or so, the guys at Edwards would have to replace the aft section of the jet as it was crooked/bowed from all of the spins. Anyway, when some of the T-33's were worn out, some of the pilots would ferry them to Davis Montham. One day, a pilot was going ferry a T-33 from Edwards to DM. One of the things the pilots used to do with the T-33 was, prior to beginning the takeoff run, they would place the gear handle in the up position so that as soon as the plane broke ground the gear would start to retract. On one occasion, the pilot had done this and while accelerating down the runway the plane bounced and the wheels left the ground. Well, as luck would have it, the gear began to retract but the plane wasn't really ready to fly so it settled back down and landed on its belly. The pilot was duly reprimanded, the jet repaired an then sent to DM for scrap.

AirSally:
If you are at Edwards, does the Test Pilots School still have one of the NF-104's on display stand? There were four of the NF's but I can only recall three tail numbers and the tail numbers were 756, 757 and 760. The reason I can't recall the fourth is that it crashed just before I got assigned to the TPS. The pilot lost the pressure seal on one of his gloves (the only thing the ground heard was "my glove" and then lost contact) and died during the flight. Plane impacted about 60 miles from the base near Tehachapi (SP). Just curious as I was the guy that preflighted the data acquisiton systems on the NF-104's. I guess it was because I volunteered and I was the youngest of the group. The older guys wouldn't go near the jet. For those that do not know about the NF-104, the Air Force/government had four of these planes built. They were a mix of different series of fuselages, wings tails, etc (like A model fuse, B model wings). The jets were intended to allow the military and NASA to get experience with high altitude flight as well as to allow the test pilots to get some time in "space". The jets were equipped with the standard J-79 engine but at the base of the vertical stabilizer they had a 6,000 pound solid rocket motor (out of some missile as I recall). The plane would climb (at about 35-45 degrees angle of attack at maximum thrust) up to about 60-65K ft at which time the pilot would shut the J-79 down as it could no longer sustain combustion due to lack of air. The pilot would "coast" in an arch for a few seconds and then ignite the solid rocket (once it was lit it could not be shut down until the propellant was exhasuted). As I recall, the highest the plane ever got while I was around it was about 127,000 ft. After it reached the apogee then the pilot would maneuver it back into the atmosphere and once below 60K ft reignite the J-79. One of the things that the NF had to allow it to maneuver in "space" was a set or hydrogen peroxide reaction control thrusters. It has four in the nose (0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees on the compass) and one thruster on the top and bottom of each wing tip. The thing that bothered me was that when I went out to preflight the instrumentations systems, which were located in the radome along with the hydrogen peroxide cylinders, is that I was the only person within about 300 ft of the plane. I had the ground power unit up and running and the nearest guys were the fire trucks. Not very comforting, but a lot of fun just the same. Now an NF-104 would make a nice scale subject. Make it EDf with a little estes rocket in the back.

Ed
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Old Nov 22, 2011, 11:51 PM
wannabe Jet guy
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A-10

Ed,

I will have to think back, those times, I had the BVM T-33, the Aviation Design Rafale and a Byron MIG with a Dynamax. Here is a shot of Me with Dean's A-10 at Superman 98? Yep since the header tank on the DF A-10 where in the nacell, if the engine pod broke loose the DF kept going. Sorry but those where epics moments.

Ralph
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Old Nov 22, 2011, 11:51 PM
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that sounds like it would be a very cool subject, especially if the donor fuselage was something like an Avonds F-104 with a Dynamax in it.
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Old Nov 23, 2011, 01:47 AM
deltas are cool
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Joined Apr 2006
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ED yes the NF-104 is still on the pole ,but i dont think it has the 2' wing extensions on it ,it does have the modded inlet shock cones. it is one of my favs.they keep it painted up real nice.i have been to yeager crash site and have a few parts from it . i live in Tehachapi ,i wish i knew where the other site was. i once was working on a project and some one got a hold of a large box with rebuilt ready to run NF-104 rocket motors in it ...that was cool .they said they were throttleable .any way cool story for sure.i was under the impression they only built 2 of the NF's the NF must have been a real blast to fly ..but dangerous.your A-10's sounded like a cool project.
Rodger.
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