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Old Nov 14, 2003, 11:01 PM
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If I could just figure how to choose the right Pletti BL motor for some of my applications, I would have tried one by now.

I have spent alot of time on their website and I still come away without answers. Kv ratings would sure help. The A#s are a mystery, The P#s are poles I gather.

What is the max rpm for the S motors? The non S motors are listed at max #300-20,000 rpm, #370-15,000, #220-25,000.

Gordon
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Old Nov 15, 2003, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Plane Crazy

I have spent alot of time on their website and I still come away without answers. Kv ratings would sure help. The A#s are a mystery, The P#s are poles I gather.

HP 220/30/ A3 S P4

220 signifies the diameter, 30 is the length. A 370/30 is bigger in diameter but the same length

A3 is the # of winds in 1/2 turns so A2 is one wind, A3 1.5 winds and A4 2 turns

S means the magnets are bound with kevlar

P4 is the pole count - 4 poles.
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Old Nov 15, 2003, 12:56 AM
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ULF, KEVIN, JOE, and HERB and CHRIS

I would think the A4 is better than A5 since less turns and higher rpm, with same current draw and more thrust. Is that a valid point? Otherwise, i am still confused as to which motor to use.

Plettenburg website uses the 220/30/ A3 S P4 delivering 18 N
on the (x2 of course for 2 motors for each MIDI) for 16 cells

Wemotec site uses the 220/30 A5 S P4 delivering 28.4 N total
as specific for rafale and using 24 RC 3000 cells

Wemotec site under MIDI also specifies 220/30 A4 S P4 making 18 N thrust for 1 motor under 24 cells at 34 A

Again Which A, - A3, A4 or A5 is best! This is nerve racking. Cant they make it simpler#$%$^^&^&&%*%*!@#$#$^&^
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Old Nov 15, 2003, 08:39 AM
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I'm sure Ulf is using the A5 in parallel so he does not want the current draw for each motor very high. 25 + 25 = 50 amps off one 24 cell pack.

Two A4's would need fewer cells (say 20) and the current would be very high - 60 amps

Two A3's could be used if seperate 14 cell packs are used but then you have the weight of 4 extra cells.

Decide first whether you want seperate 10,12, or 14 cell packs per motor OR one large 22,24,26 or 28 cell pack with motors running in parallel. Only then can you choose the motor. Since most of us don't work for the motor manufacturer you might want to think about what you might use your two expensive motors for AFTER the Rafale is history at some point in the (hopefully distant) future.
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Old Nov 15, 2003, 09:14 AM
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Amit - within a range of useable motors (enough powerhandling capacity) there is no clear wrong, as Chris is saying its just a matter of balancing it all out to your liking. A lower turn motor can give the same power as a higher turn, only the V and A's change but still make the same Power. (V x A = P)

So settle for a cellcount first, then what powerlevel you want - then you can choose motor and ESC's.
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 12:29 AM
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thank you all
Well i think the A4 motor is best bet on 24 gp 3300 cells, however, I will definitely play around with cell number once I get settled

i see schulze no longer makes the future-35bo controllers and they have a new line of ESC's out. I will go with
fut-32.40K for 40/53 Amps even though it may not get that high to be on safe side. I have seen on posts here short term amp draws way above 100A for the GP 3300's so i dont know if current draw will be a problem for 2 motors in parallel.
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 06:23 AM
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I would not go much over 50 amps constant on GP3300's. Yes you can pull 100 or whatever for a few seconds but that is in a glider with 3-5 seconds on and 15 seconds off - not a jet flight profile.
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 08:49 AM
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In EDF's anything above 50A is pushing it.

if I were to set one up for 2x Midi's I go like this:

Option 1 - 2x Kontronik Fun500-21 on 14x GP3300 each (2x 700W)
Option 2 - 2x Kontronik Fun600-15 on 20x FAUP each (2x900W)
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ulf Herder
Hi amit,

the values on the Wemotec website are with a prototype motor with lower kv, so for 24 to 26 cell take twin HP220/30A5SP4(as I use with 7S4P TP8200). At 24V each motor pulls 25Amps and at 27V each motor pulls 30Amps.
Matthias is using 24 cells RC2400 with twin HP220/30A5SP4 with good results at 4.3 to 4.5 kg RTF weight.
My Rafale has a RTW weight of 3.1kg!
If the new Kokam 3.4Ah 20C cell will deliver really 68Amps continous I will switch to 8S1P Kokam 3400SHD, saving 300g and get from 1200W to 1600W
Ok, the flight time will then only 5 to 5.5min instead of the 15minutes now.
But after 7 minutes I am really finished!
At the moment I am doing two 6 to 7 minutes flights on one charge.

Regards,

Ulf



Ulf
How did u get your rafale at 3.1 KGs?

Amit
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 02:04 PM
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Fiberglass tape applied to top & bottom of wing joint with laminating epoxy:
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 02:05 PM
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Twin Megas 22/20/3 arrived:
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 02:07 PM
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Spent an evening statically balancing the rotors and then the spinners
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 02:08 PM
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Motors and fans ready to be mounted in the fuse
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 02:15 PM
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I weighted the two supllied exhaust tubes, 2.6 oz both or about 74 grams ... Bought a sheet of 5 mil mylar at the local arts supply store and re-did the exhausts saving about another 2 oz .

Will confirm amp draw on one fan, then on two later on, using my trusty GP 3300 packs. First flight will be on 14-cell packs I already have if the numbers look right .
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris True
I would not go much over 50 amps constant on GP3300's. ...
I agree but here about 60 A for the whole 4 min flight ... Pack is usually ready for recharge after about half an hour in the cooler:

http://rcgroups.com/gallery/showphot...3671&nocache=1
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 05:15 PM
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Herb
Nice pics
Twin Megas 22/20/3 you went with. Any reason not to use plettenburg or FUNs - I guess you chose these for lighter weight?
Please correct me if i am wrong. I would like to learn all I can here

thanks
amit
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 05:38 PM
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1/2 the price?
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 05:40 PM
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yes, I see price is much better, as i the weight profile
what about performance?
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit
Ulf
How did u get your rafale at 3.1 KGs?

Amit
The major weight savings are from the use of lithium polymer cells for power, I'm sure.
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 06:45 PM
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Hey, There is an AeroNaut Rafale in the for sale forum now.
It's in the UK though.
175 pounds
60 more for a pair of Midi Fans.
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit
Herb ... I would like to learn all I can here ... amit
Forgive me just out of curiosity, have you ever built or flown an electric ducted fan - or any other electric model - before? I see you posted a question about the Vector II in the parkflier section.
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 07:36 PM
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 07:52 PM
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Honestly No
But How hard could it be. Ive always been a builder, since 7 or 8 years old, building a model space shuttle, 1/32 scale, and many others, long long list, too many to name here.
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
I agree but here about 60 A for the whole 4 min flight ... Pack is usually ready for recharge after about half an hour in the cooler:

http://rcgroups.com/gallery/showphot...3671&nocache=1

Herb, as one of the powerusers out there I could easily find myself run packs higher than what I recommend - but thats because I choose to extract more power with the risk of component failure. When giving advice I downrate a little and state what I feel is safe
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 09:14 PM
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Midi Rotors

Herb, I noticed that you had what looks like blue masking tape inside your Midi Fan rotors I would guess to balance them. Is that the blue 3M masking tape that you used? Must hold pretty well then if so?
Thanks Joe
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 10:26 PM
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At 30,000 RMP I don't suppose it matters weather the tape sticks or not. It's STUCK to the surface. LOL
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Old Nov 16, 2003, 11:35 PM
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Exactly . It's blue vinyl tape.
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 12:56 AM
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Hi,

all major work is done at my Rafale! (without painting)
Want to try the maiden end of this week if weather is ok,

Heiner
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 11:39 AM
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Heiner did you go with the GP cells or FAUP's for the first flight? I am testing the amp draw on a single GP cell setup, possibly for the maiden flight.
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 02:29 PM
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well lets see
1000 grms for plane fuse, ducts, and servos about
(correct me if I am wrong, dont have the plane yet)
1440 for 24 gp 3300 matched cells
240 x 2 = 480 gms - (plettenburg motors)
100 gms for 2 schuzle controller
200 gms for 2 midi fans

thats 3.2 gms already for basic stuff
No retracts, No paint.

2 engines pulling total 50 amps on 24 x 1.165 volts = 1398 watts
and hopefully above 25 N of thrust, which I still have to figure out in grams basis

Any suggestions welcome. Again, I do wish to emphasize my entry into this type of hobby, so please, any suggestions welcome. I am a quick learner, and maybe I can surprise someone here
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 02:30 PM
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3.2 KGS that is
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit
Honestly No. But How hard could it be. Ive always been a builder ,...
Dont' take it badly but the Aeronaut Rafale might not be the most suitable subject for an entry ino edf or electric flight....

I think there are models out there which involve much less emotional and financial investment, and have a much better chance of eventual success. Believe me there are many things that can go wrong, and there's no substitute for experience no matter how good a builder you are. The Rafale is my fifth twin-engined edf project...

I would suggest you look at some simple, single fan nice flying MF480 or MidiFan models, bungee launched or with fixed lg. Or even some of the smaller edf parklflier, some of which are still quite good looking and very pleasant to fly.
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 05:21 PM
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I actually am building, and almost done with a Kavan projetti - very easy but delicate plane, and very fast, close to 100 mph with mega 16-15-3 motor, and 8 FAUP cells. That will be my first. So we shall see. No $ spent yet other than on 48 gp cells which i have. Lots of time spent though so far for me. bot the charger and ac power source too and soldering supplies. Will get a 8 or 9 channel radio too soon on top of the cheap 4 channel hitec radio i have
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 05:42 PM
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Flying

Hi Amit, I don't want to sound like a jerk here but I have to echo Herb's concerns about you flying a high performance airplane whether its ducted fan or prop. If you have never flown anything before and your first plane is a Projeti with a 3 turn Mega on it, thats a fast plane. You do you plan to fly this plane and have you joined the AMA?

I am not just thinking of you but what happens if you God Forbid hit someone with that Projeti? I highly suggest that you get yourself a good flight instructor and maybe even join a club for your safety and that of others as well.
JMOI
Joe

PS: Just as a follow up, where you ask "How hard could it be" Let me tell you a small like the Projeti with that motor can get away from you in an instant.
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 05:54 PM
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Re: Flying

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Elston
... If you have never flown anything before...
Joe just out of pure curiosity after 2829 or so posts in the edf forum during the past two years have you completed and/or flown an electric ducted fan jet ?
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 06:02 PM
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Re: Re: Flying

Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
Joe just out of pure curiosity after 2829 or so posts in the edf forum during the past two years have you completed and/or flown an electric ducted fan jet ?

next week,
with Tamiya Water based Acrylics.
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 06:06 PM
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The plane will not be flown with others around for now. I will use a big field. This is why i have done nothing yet with EDF. I can assure you all care will be taken Are there laws regarding flying and joining AMA?
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 06:08 PM
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OT
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...i&pagenumber=2

mega motors look good for wt and price profile.
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 06:28 PM
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never mind
i see the ama site and insurance. guess didnt think about that, but thats why i am here. thanks. I have one question - ama gives insurance to anyone to fly anywhere, or just on their fields?
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 06:29 PM
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Jets

I was only trying to help I built and flew a Kyosho T-33 with a 1010/2Y before I found the Ezone and I flew that T-33 for almost a year. I have also flown several glow ducted fans including one F18 I had for about two years before selling it. I realize I dont have the credentials that you and Gregg do Herb but I have been flying almost every type of airplane, including scale, pattern and Quicke 500's. Most of them glow for about 19 years now. I just tried to help.
Joe
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 06:35 PM
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Forgot

I also forgot my being a longstanding member of the Anaheim Model Airplane club. I have been flying mostly glow powered float planes of our private lake for 19 years. I also learned to fly in the parking lot of Anahem Stadium back when our club could fly there. I never clipped a single light pole either.

And if you two think that your funny the reason I havent flown allot in the last two years is health related and I really think that was a cheap shot Herb and Gregg also. But I guess I should have expected it.
Joe
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 06:53 PM
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Re: Flying

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe Elston
[B]Hi Amit, I don't want to sound like a jerk here but I have to echo Herb's concerns about you flying a high performance airplane whether its ducted fan or prop. If you have never flown anything before and your first plane is a Projeti with a 3 turn Mega on it, thats a fast plane. You do you plan to fly this plane and have you joined the AMA?

I am not just thinking of you but what happens if you God Forbid hit someone with that Projeti? I highly suggest that you get yourself a good flight instructor and maybe even join a club for your safety and that of others as well.
JMOI
Joe


Joe
Thank you for addressing liability issues. I will join the ama when I am ready to fly and join a club where i live. Id rather spend an xtra 100 or so then take a chance. And I could meet others too.
Anyone live near philly?
Amit
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 07:03 PM
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Joe, just curious, as I never saw any of your recent projects come to flying completion in spite of all the questions - which I and others often took some time to answer in some detail ...
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 07:04 PM
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Great

Well Amit, it sounds like you have all the bases covered. Good luck with the Projeti I understand there really fast. I have a new Combat Wings XE2 with a 3turn Mega and 8 CP 1300 cells I havent had a chance to fly yet but I got it RTF so I will soon. It should be pretty fast but I think the Projeti has it beat.
Good Luck Joe
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 07:26 PM
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Just measured the amp draw for one Mega 22/20/3 in the Midi fan on 14 x CP 1700 cells, hot off the charger:

14 x regular CP 1700 --> 38 Amps, 560 Watts

12 x GP 3300 cells --> 33 Amps, 450 Watts

So on 14 of the GP's that's about 39 A, 580 Watts hot off the charger.

Also measured the finished weight of the Rafale on one single pack of 14 X GP 3300 feeding both fans, it's about 73 oz for the complete rtf airframe and 32 oz in batteries, or 105 oz = 6.6 pds = 2.98 kg total rtf.

At ca. 1100 watts that gives about 170 Watts / pound.

Later with the two 14 cell GP 3300 packs it will weigh 137 oz = 3.9 kg, and only very roughly 130 Watts/pd.

Staying below 40A on each motor, and below 16 cells, means I can re-use my 40A -16 cell inexpensive opto controllers ....

---------------------

Next year maybe 8Ah Kokam HD pack (30 oz, $1060), better than 16 Ah TP pack (50 oz, $600) ...
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 08:00 PM
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Next year maybe 8Ah Kokam HD pack (30 oz, $1060), better than 16 Ah TP pack (50 oz, $600) ...

kokam pack=$35.3 per oz.
tp pack=$12. per oz.
hehe
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 08:08 PM
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Yes ... but I did have a chance to see AstroBob's extensive temperature/discharge data comparing the two cell types - no comparison imho ... We'll see what other people's experience is like...
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Old Nov 17, 2003, 09:52 PM
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Mounted the motors in the fans, ran them up to test the twin esc's. Then mounted the fans in the fuse, and test fitted exhausts.

I saved about 2 oz by replacing the supplied heavy plastic exhaust ducts with 5 mil mylar tubes of similar shape. Weight of both tubes 0.6 oz.
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Old Nov 18, 2003, 01:01 AM
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@ Herb,

I think I will take the GP3300 , one pack serving 2 fans. That should be the lightest set up for the maiden. Will do static tests on 2 fans today, then I will make the final decision.

Heiner
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Old Nov 18, 2003, 03:58 PM
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Rear view, clean ducting.

[ Found out you can't turn the brake permanently off on the Schulze Future 45bo , every time I turn this thing on I have to unplug one controller to reset the other, the Kontronic on the other fan does not have this silly problem.]
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Old Nov 18, 2003, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb

[ Found out you can't turn the brake permanently off on the Schulze 45bo, every time I turn this thing on I have to unplug one controller to reset the other, the Kontronic on the other fan does not have this silly problem.]
Herb must be using a mixed bag of older ESCs he had laying around. The Newer Universal line of Schulze ESCs are programmed via dip switches.

As for using two different manufacturers ESCs on a twin, I am a little more superstitious and always use two matched ESCs. You can never garantee that start up procedures are same, ESC motor timing maybe a little diferent, Throttle end points may vary, and cut off voltages may be different. It would be interesting to do a tach, and wattmeter test to see if there are any differences between the two ESCs.

Gordon
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Old Nov 18, 2003, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Plane Crazy
Herb must be using a mixed bag of older ESCs he had laying around. ... Gordon
Indeed .

I did a power test though, at full blast with an Astro WhattMeter first on one and then on the other fan/motor (separate but identical 14 cell CP 1700 packs), and they both deliver the same power and rpm (which means their timing algorithm must be similar). I get ca. 620 Watts for each fan, no measurable difference between the two.
Slammed a door shut in the garage as well ...

As for the startup procedure being different I don't see why we should care, each one is doing it's own thing... The throttle response is indeed slightly different, but only at the very lowest settings. Neither opto esc has a low voltage cutoff, which I like.

They both start up and run fine even on a single pack. I'm just worried about the brake loosening up the nut on the Midi one day - that would be a royal pain.

Of course there's always the twin Jeti Master 70A definitive solution ...
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Old Nov 18, 2003, 08:06 PM
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I saved about 2 oz by replacing the supplied heavy plastic exhaust ducts with 5 mil mylar tubes of similar shape. Weight of both tubes 0.6 oz. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi herb
Very nice tubes. Just wondering where u got the mylar tubes.
Will u post video of your flying Rafale
thanks
Amit
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Old Nov 18, 2003, 08:32 PM
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I got the drafting mylar in large sheets (about a $1.0 per sheet) at my local arts supply store (Sterling Art Supplies). They have them in 2 mil, 3 mil ... thickness.

http://www.sterlingart.com/products.html
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Old Nov 18, 2003, 08:55 PM
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Herb if a single 3300 pack is used to replace 2 CP packs in the power range your talking about, what, if any additional cells, would be needed to get the same duration as the twin pack setup? Obviously the higher loads from linking the motors together is going to change things a bit.

Barry
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Old Nov 18, 2003, 09:13 PM
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Yes the load goes up quite a bit, from 35 A to 70 A or so. But the GP 3300's are very good cells and can handle that kind of load with no problems - we've used them a lot over the last few months in all sorts of planes, and so have people that do fly competition f5d-like stuff at my field.

I estimate that when going from two 14-cell CP 1700 packs to one GP 3300 pack I need to add a couple of cells, so I will probably try 16 GP cells.

Once the plane is trimmed out etc I could switch to two GP 3300 packs (each back at 14 cells). That adds about 27 oz (+25%) to the Rafale but doubles duration.
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Old Nov 18, 2003, 09:16 PM
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Herb do you like the Zapped GP3300's or realy don't fine the need for it ?
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Old Nov 18, 2003, 09:23 PM
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We don't use zapped cells. I buy all my cells directly from a local Sanyo distributor TNR . I heard zapping apparently has no effect on the GP 3300's as their internal steel clip is already well welded, at least for the currents we are talking here.

Mine run a lot cooler than any CP 1700's we've used (zapped or non-zapped). Sanyo Japan told me a year ago in an e-mail that zapping can be useless unless the quality of the internal omega weld is re-checked after zapping (ie internal resistance is re-measured) for every cell.
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Old Nov 18, 2003, 10:17 PM
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Thanks Herb. I had not heard that about rechecking the cells. Sounds like there is potential for degrading a packs potential by useing zapped cells. I always thouhgt of it as a no loose procedure.
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Old Nov 18, 2003, 11:15 PM
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hmm?
thought canards went the other way during landing?
http://www.studenten.net/customasp/a...=2&pte_id=1114
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Old Nov 18, 2003, 11:20 PM
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so many cool planes to fly. Unfortunately, only a few kits u can buy for RC

http://www.studenten.net/customasp/a...s.asp?cat_id=0
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit
hmm?
thought canards went the other way during landing?
http://www.studenten.net/customasp/a...=2&pte_id=1114
They deploy like that after touch down for braking effect.
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 01:03 AM
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Good evening America!

Yesterday I set in the second motor and balanced the fan.

After testing, that's my set up for the maiden, but I have to wait until rain stops ......

16 x 3300 GP hot from loader
2 x BEAT 50-8-30
2 X FUN 600-15
2 X Midifan
2 X 450 W
2 X 1075 g static thrust

weight 3300g
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 01:21 AM
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Heiner, with my 600-15 and Hacker B50-16L (both kv=1500) show 41-42A/900W HOC in the schubies. Midifan data should be close to this.

So at 4kg (2x 20xFAUP) you'll have 1800W HOC => 200W/pound vs 120W/pound with the single GP pack.

However, light is good for first flights
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 01:32 AM
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@ Haldor,

yes I want to set in 2 x20 4/5FAUP's after first trim flights.
Also I will make the cannards movable as soon I figgered out a good way using just one servo. (and still get the batteries out without removing mechanic of the canards)

Heiner
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heiner Skroblin
... Also I will make the canards movable as soon I figure out a good way of using just one servo and still get the batteries out without removing the mechanic of the canards.
The simplest way seems Matthias' way of using two servos, one per side. That way you solve the battery access problem... You need very secure canard mounts though.

Hope your wing joint is strong enough to carry the weight of all those extra cells . I spent quite a bit of time & effort reinforcing the spar-to-fuse joint.
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heiner Skroblin
Good evening America!

Yesterday I set in the second motor and balanced the fan.

After testing, that's my set up for the maiden, but I have to wait until rain stops ......

16 x 3300 GP hot from loader
2 x BEAT 50-8-30
2 X FUN 600-15
2 X Midifan
2 X 450 W
2 X 1075 g static thrust

weight 3300g
Heiner
I had a few questions if you dont mind

HOw did you calculate the thrust - 2150 total grams for this?

Why did you use kontronik ESC instead of Schuzle? I know motor is also kontronik
Thanks
Amit
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 06:20 PM
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What is maximum amp draw from 4/5 FAUP. Ive seen 30 amps no problem. There are sparks i know from a 10 cell pack when they are not corrected properly. Very good cells otherwise. I ve been debating 24 cell gp 3300 vs FAUP's. Cant decide just yet though
amit
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
The simplest way seems Matthias' way of using two servos, one per side. That way you solve the battery access problem... You need very secure canard mounts though.

Hope your wing joint is strong enough to carry the weight of all those extra cells . I spent quite a bit of time & effort reinforcing the spar-to-fuse joint.


I would think the best way is a single carbon fiber rod with U bend connected to servo arm for extra torque and connected to both cannards. Atleast this way it has two points of attachment vs one for separate rods on each side
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit
... How did you calculate the thrust - 2150 total grams for this? ...
If you know the watts (power) then you know the thrust as well for a given fan. Either from here:

www.wemotec.com (under Midi Fan)

or form here:

www.kontronics.com (under Midi Fan)

I tried to measure the thrust on mine yesterday, by putting the Rafale upside down on a kitchen scale, but it was just blowing too hard. Maybe some other time .

Most brushless sensorless speed controllers will work quite well with just about any motor nowadays. Schulze, Hacker-Jeti, Mgm, CC, Kontronic etc.
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit
What is maximum amp draw from 4/5 FAUP. Ive seen 30 amps no problem. ...
FAUP's are pretty good cells, up to 30 maybe 40 Amps no problem. I have a bunch of those and like them.

But the GP 3300's are even better cells for larger planes. Really no point in using FAUP's for those, unless you have very special requirements (space, weight distribution etc).
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 09:56 PM
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i was on kontronic website
and opened link for midi fan under downloads

I see how kontronic categories motors
What does Standscub mean - it has units in grams? Is that thrust?
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 10:06 PM
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the FUN 600-13, if i see correctly, a good choice. I think motor weighs 250 gm? Makes 725 watt on 22 sanyos with 32.2 amp draw - that would be my max on a set for gp 3300's for a pair of motors.
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit

...
What does Standscub mean - it has units in grams? Is that thrust?
Static Thrust
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 11:02 PM
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Amit : if you want to use 20xFAUP's on each motor the Kontronik 600-15 or Hacker B50-16L will do the job nicely.

If you want to use 15-16x GP3300's on each motor the hotter Fun600-18 is better but here the lighter Fun500-19 is a better match.

14x GP3300's look at the Fun500-21
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 01:04 AM
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Amit!

I checked the Thrust like Herb tried, up side down on a kichen scale. That showed me, that the thrust (Standschub) that KONTRONIK mesured for 600-15 at 16 cells is right!

Why should I not use BEAT controllers?

I also have some Schulze or a Jeti 70A etc. I never found out that there is a great difference in performance. The biggest difference, in my oppinion, is the money you can spend.

Heiner
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 01:13 AM
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Herb

Thanks for a lengthy,but enjoyable and informative, read....

just finished it all

I wasn't to interested in the Rafale so I never read anything in your thread until today.....but there is alot of GREAT info in here for bigger EDF Twins!

Joe...

just FINISH something! I know it's hard to concentrate on just one airplane,believe me I know, but it will never fly if it never gets finished...

just trying to help.

Bruce
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 12:25 PM
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I am double checking the CG and the throws.

The CG I located at 120 mm behind the LE at the wing root.

The throws I have set on my UAF8 are at +-5mm for ailerons and +-10 mm for elevator (need to pull up the nose to slow this thing down for a landing).

Regarding the trims, the instructions recommend the elevons flat with the top wing surface. But my understanding is that you need some up trim to fly it. How many mm up trim do you have on yours, measured with respect to a "flat on top". Ulf?
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 01:51 PM
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Herb
again excuse my ignorance. I thought the rafale only had elevons and no ailerons?
Are you considering adding a rudder.
Are you using the cannards as ailerons
thanks
amit
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 01:52 PM
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Heiner
No reason. just was curious if any advantage of beat vs schulze. I was actually going to use schulze on my 2 plettenburgs since cheaper. beats are good too
thanks
amit
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit
Herb again excuse my ignorance. I thought the Rafale only had elevons and no ailerons? ...
Indeed it has only elevons on the wings.

But you can separately adjust (by mixing done in your transmitter) the "aileron" (left/right stick) and "elevator" (up/down stick) response.

The Rafale, having a short wingspan, has good roll response even on minimal aileron deflections, but needs quite a bit of "up" elevator in the landings. It's the same as in my EF 2000:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=1
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 06:54 PM
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Herb
Any ideas for painting the rafale?
thanks
amit
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 07:13 PM
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Mine will remain White, in the airshow demonstrator paint theme shown earlier in this thread.
The only difference is : I will have no French markings on my plane. American Flag whret that other thing was, high on the vertical stabalizer. Also no French Bullseye on my plane, may use scaled Hat in The Ring's there.
I'll leave off the "I Surrender", "Please Don't Shoot" off the canards, or what ever the oficcial translation of NE PAS MARCHER is.
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 07:16 PM
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I will probably have a local car body shop shoot a light coat of white over the stock (gelcoat ?) white after the plane is fitted out but befors putting on the red and blue.
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 07:41 PM
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How does one getted detailed lines after painting the beauty?
Here is one of Herbs works of art
Just curious?

scroll to middle of page
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=3
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 08:02 PM
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Very fine line marking pens.
0.4 mm or so.
Find them in atr or drafting stores.

3 view line drawings are had online downloadable for free for all contemporary aircraft. Use them as a guide - and go for it. If you don't like the result - just remove it with either a rag wet with either watter or EToh.
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Old Nov 21, 2003, 12:48 AM
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@ Herb,

you are right. We need more upthrow!

I also made about 5-6 mm throw on ailerons and I mixed some more up for landing, by using a "Drehpotentiometer" what ever it is in english.

Heiner

PS. still waiting for better weather
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Old Nov 21, 2003, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Murray
I will probably have a local car body shop shoot a light coat of white over the stock (gelcoat ?) white after the plane is fitted out but before putting on the red and blue.
Kevin why? The white gelcoat is wonderful if you want to keep the Rafale white, why add weight, it won't look any better.

You could do the red & blue trims with a paint mask, or even simply just use some sticky back monokote trim sheets which are easy to cut out & apply. Will add zero weight.
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Old Nov 21, 2003, 03:08 PM
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True. If the gelcoat still looks as goog after the biuld I can skip the light coat. Paint mask is the way to go.
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Old Nov 21, 2003, 03:53 PM
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... and then there's the panel lines to add:

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Old Nov 21, 2003, 05:14 PM
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I've got one of those to use as a guide. Panel lines are a must. A cheep easy to do upgrade for the looks.
They look GREAT on your Mig Herb. If I ever make it out to MWE I'll be looking forward to seeing your work.
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Old Nov 21, 2003, 05:31 PM
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Any website to get more detailed panel lines. I see Herb posted the picture above

What color do people use on a white plane? Black?
Is there a special ruler for straight edge and rounded panel lines?

thanks
Amit

great thread by the way
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Old Nov 21, 2003, 05:35 PM
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My son (and daughter ) picked the scheme for me. It's going to be light grey-blue and darker grey (I had to look up the FS & Humbrol colors, and then their tamiya mixing equivalents...).

Unfortunately I've got every Rafale decal in the world, except the one that says "armee de l'air"


Btw the white one was a close second....
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Old Nov 21, 2003, 05:39 PM
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Most I see are black lines on a white plane. I've read dark grey looks a little more realistic though.
I don't have a link to the site for the line drawings but think it was fortunecitydotcom. ?????
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Old Nov 22, 2003, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit
Herb Any ideas for painting the rafale?
Yes
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Old Nov 22, 2003, 12:57 PM
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pic
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Old Nov 22, 2003, 12:58 PM
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Looks good Herb dont blink when you fly it on a cloudy day though.
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Old Nov 22, 2003, 01:10 PM
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Looks good Herb.
Seems you and I have our first and second preferances for color scheme reversed. Is that one of Steve's pilots at the stick ?
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Old Nov 22, 2003, 01:17 PM
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Looks Very nice Herb especially the missiles
Nice job as always!!!!!
And I think the pilot is a foamie.
Hope it fly's as good as it looks
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Old Nov 22, 2003, 01:17 PM
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Now we're talking Looks great
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