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Old Nov 10, 2003, 09:01 PM
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Root rib fitted in the wing. It's easier to align the wing with the rib glued into the wing, than attached at the fuse.
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 09:03 PM
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Both root ribs glued securely in place with epoxy and microbaloons ...
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 09:06 PM
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Pro Bond

Hi Herb, gotta question for you? Have you noticed that the Elmers Pro Bond has been relabeled? I picked up some the other day from Home Depot and they no longer call it Pro Bond and the bottle is clear not white. Its called Universall Polyurethane glue I think dont have the bottle in front of me.
Just courious if I had Pro Bond,
Thanks Joe

PS: The Rafale really looks sharp.
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
The Minifan is for smaller models. It makes no sense to try to fly a nine pound model on twin minifans .
Don't tell Chris (JetMang), or his 9+ lb F-14 might suddenly fall from the sky!

I'm with you though Herb...If a bigger fan fits and the inlets are big enough, use it.

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Old Nov 10, 2003, 09:20 PM
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 10:14 PM
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Steve..... that's funny !

i would of agreed with herb if i had not seen that video... still hard to beleive
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 10:17 PM
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Hey Joe they still have regular pro bond the one you have is just a side product. The one you have now is a little cheaper in the suplly houses where I have been buying it for a few years. It's no different sticks just as well, virtually the same stuff. I would almost venture to say it sticks like glue! LOL

Barry
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 10:20 PM
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speaking of that Chris got his plane to fly great on the Mini Fans, but if the weight creeps up like that, wouldnt 609's make a bit more sense? Or do you think the additional battery load would cancel that out? I weas thinking at that weight, you could power a couple of 609's pretty darn well and not even be pushing there limit.

Barry
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 10:42 PM
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F14

Thanks Barry, I will use my Ultimate Poly Glue then I was getting ready to return it but the drying times are identical to the white bottle stuff.


As for the F14 with two HW 609 fans I emailed Larry Wolfe of Jet Hangar(Chris's Dad) I asked him about the 609 fan version because I had been thinking of building a Tomcat. Larry told me that people dont want a 609 fan version because of the cost of larger motors and more cells. Chris proved that a 9 pound plane can fly on two MF's I would rather have 609's. I would really like an all fiberglass fuselag and foam wing 90mm sized plane But I dont think they will explore any larger size planes,
Joe
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 10:46 PM
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Aeronaut Rafalle

I am pretty sure that my next all molded jet will be an Aeronaut Rafalle but I am waiting for the single fan version so that I can install retracts to fly from my paved field. So I will be watching the development of the single fan big Rafalle very closely Maybe next year sometime I can buy a single fan version,
Joe
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 01:49 AM
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@ Herb,

I think I found my set up of batteries for the first try.

Using 2 x 15 off 4/5 FAUP should do.
Weight over all ca. 3300g
2 x Midifan+2 x FUN 600-15
2 x 15 cells
2 x 24 A
2 x 400 W
2 x 1000g thrust
expected flight time ca. 4 min full throttle

That means max 2kg static thrust carrying 3300 g load. That should be ok!

(Got my servos yesterday, now I can finish my work.)

Heiner
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 08:33 AM
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Heiner, if you want more power with a sacrifice in runtime two Fun500-21's or -19's will do the trick. At the powerlevel the smaller 500 series will cope very well.
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heiner Skroblin
@ Herb,

I think I found my set up of batteries for the first try.

Using 2 x 15 off 4/5 FAUP should do.
Weight over all ca. 3300g
2 x Midifan+2 x FUN 600-15
2 x 15 cells
2 x 24 A
2 x 400 W
2 x 1000g thrust
expected flight time ca. 4 min full throttle

That means max 2kg static thrust carrying 3300 g load. That should be ok!
I checked your numbers, you should be ok. You should have indeed around 1.9-2.0 kg of thrust, and the weight should be about 1.2 kg in batteries and about 2.0 kg for the airframe. The only thing is that for this particular setup (400 Watts per fan) the Fun-600's (250 g each?) are a bit of a brick . The Mega 22/20/3 I am using are 167g each. But if you will put more power later then they will be a good choice ...

If you use a single GP 3300 15-cell pack and hook up both motors to it in parallel, you will only have 0.96 kg in batteries. You would have to measure though if you are still getting 800 Watts out of this setup (ca. 48 A draw now), I think you should be close. You will still get a 4 min flight full throttle.
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 04:36 PM
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Plenty of options on the decal set that came with my kit ...
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 04:44 PM
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After the wings are secured & glued in place, the fuse back still has to slide out, so some spacers before you glue the wing in can be helful
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 04:48 PM
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Herb thats the exact setup, with the exception of Midi's swapped for 609's, that I was considering in the F-14. Obviously my Watts will be less with the 609's though. And Wow! Aeronaut really covers all the bases with there kit don't they?

Barry
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 05:02 PM
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Excellent fit of the parts makes the job easier ...
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 05:49 PM
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2 questions
if i wanted to get the rafale aeronaut, where in the USA could i get?

2nd, could this be made to accomodate a single engine vs 2 engines

thanks
amit
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 06:03 PM
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Rafale

Herb, its a beautiful plane I love the lines of the airplane it almost reminds me of a fast European car. I think yours will really be a great flyer. I am looking forward to getting my EJF version in the air but it doesnt hold a candle to your plane.

Herb, do you think its possible to install Mini Spring Air retracts without cutting into the ducting on the twin fan Aeroanaut Rafale?
Thanks Much Joe



Amit, as I wrote before as far as I could find out the single fan Aeronaut Rafale is not going to be a manufactured kit. At least not anytime soon. As soon as I hear different I will let you know as I too want a single fan big Rafale for retracts.
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Last edited by Joe Elston; Nov 11, 2003 at 06:08 PM.
Old Nov 11, 2003, 06:11 PM
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how about where to buy in the USA. I could mold the ducts, not a problem, from fiberglass. The only problem is with a 120 mm fan, what about the engine? What to use?
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 07:53 PM
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Herb, You got all 4 of those with yours ?
Mine didn't come with the top two on the left.
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 08:49 PM
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Kevin I bought mine direct from WeMoTec and it came - for a small additional charge - with Ralf's superb decals for the Marine (Navy) version. It should be possible to get them directly from Ralf.

Joe there seems to be no space for scale retracts with the twin ducts.
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by monkamarm2000
Herb thats the exact setup, with the exception of Midi's swapped for 609's, that I was considering in the F-14.
The HW-609 is designed for fast planes, probably not the best match for the draggy F-14. A MidiFan would be a better choice.

Dirk Juras' 1999 F-14 Tomcat flew on twin 90 mm fans & brushed 930 motors (and NiCd's), here in a Gronau 2000 video:

Dirk Juras 90 mm fan F-14 Tomcat video

Molded FG version by JePe, twin JePe Spiderfans - now that would get my attention ....
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Last edited by Herb; Nov 11, 2003 at 10:57 PM.
Old Nov 11, 2003, 09:04 PM
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Retracts

Thank You Herb, I will wait and see if they bring out a single fan Rafale next year. I just found out the brushless Plettenberg to fit the HW 750 went down in price by 100:00 dollars?
Thanks Joe
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 09:34 PM
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Aeronaut Rafale lovers
I think the single fan version is doing, just would have to cut supports similiar to this one below.
Herb, or anyone, what kind of impeller or EDF is in the picture for single fan version. I have posted translation version
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/langua...000020%3Bp%3D6
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 09:36 PM
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well looks like link didnt work

Herb
what kind of impeller (EDF) is in this single fan version?
thanks
amit

http://www.rc-network.de/cgi-bin/ubb...5;t=000020;p=6
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 09:45 PM
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It is discussed a page or two back in this thread.
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 10:01 PM
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it looked like a DS-51-FAN-3ph, but wasnt sure, still am not sure since i cant read german. Can anyone verify this?
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 10:39 PM
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I think it is a hw 750 wemotec fan. verification by anyone welcome
If is it, again, why use it when the schuebeler ds 51 produces comparable thrust and is lighter! You could use 2 of these babies in the rafale, producing 40 n and higher with ds's.


http://www.wemotec.com/index_e.html
http://www.schuebeler-jets.de/
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 11:02 PM
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Above they said The AeroNaut Rafale is being reworked for a 120 mm fan. Thats an AeroNaut Rafale in the pics linked to.
I don't see a 120 mm fan on the WeMoTec web site.
The fan shroud looks CF like a Schubeler, they don't market a 120 mm fan.
I'm unclear on this too. They hopefully will release the single fan kit within a year and We'll know.
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 11:16 PM
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Single Fan Rafale

I emailed Oliver at Wemotec Monday and he returned it today. That Rafale is a one off done by the designer of the plane and it uses a 124mm Aeronaut fan. Oliver didnt know much about the airplane, I asked him if he would know if it was going to be released but he didnt know. You might try emailing Aeronaut direct and seeing what they have to say I plan to.
I would love a single Rafale so I could install retracts. Oliver told me that both brushless Plettenbergs that fit the HW 750 went down 100 Euros last week I dont know if the motor fits the Aeronaut fan or not.
Joe
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 11:22 PM
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the rotor on the hw 750 is 124 mm
This isnt a 120 mm fan then?
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 11:27 PM
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there are no edf units on aeronaut website. In fact the single fan looks like a larger ds 51 ph fan unit.
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 11:33 PM
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The single 120 mm carbon fan is home-made but possibly will be manufactured and distributed by Aero-naut. The WeMoTec HW-750 being 125 mm is a real problem to fit in but possibly can be done (it definitely won't fit in the same fuse location as the twin Midis).

http://www.wemotec.com/2_1_8.html

I would imagine that Aero-naut would try to produce a kit enhancement that utilizes commercially available products though.
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Last edited by Herb; Nov 12, 2003 at 02:47 AM.
Old Nov 11, 2003, 11:34 PM
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Aeronaut Rafale

Amit and Kevin, this is what I know I emailed a friend in Germany. He told me that Aeronaut will be releasing the single fan kit next year sometime. I dont know when but when its released I will find out and it will use an Aeronaut fan. Thats all I know about the plane I am going to buy one when the single fan version comes out so I can install retracts. Until then I will build and fly my EJF kit with a Midi fan and Spring Airs.
Joe
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 11:39 PM
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Rafale

Herb, your correct as far as I know the plane will use Aeronaut's fan. And the Plettenberg HP 370/20/A35 or A25 Motors on 28 and 30 cells. I think those motors are brushless and Oliver told me they went down in price to 300 Euros! They dropped 100 Euros so thats a good deal.
Now we just need to wait but I cant believe that it will be all that long till the kit is released.
Joe
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Old Nov 11, 2003, 11:42 PM
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The HW750 at wemotec is 124mm.
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Old Nov 12, 2003, 12:06 AM
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what about using a single ds 51 ph fan on 24 - 30 cells. it would produce the same or more thrust than 2 midi's and is comparable to the 124 mm hw 750
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Old Nov 12, 2003, 01:08 AM
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If twin engine is way to go, i see no diff between rafale and F-14. Retracts could go into wings or sides where wings join fuselage. You would have to play around a bit i guess.
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Old Nov 12, 2003, 01:57 AM
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@ Haldor,

I am using the FUN 600-15, because I have them since 2 years. Also I have 40 cells of 4/5FAUP 0r 40 3300 cells.
Yesterday I made a pack of 15 FAUP's and tested them with one fan. About 900 g static thrust, batteries were hot from the loader. Today I want to test it with 16 x 3300 or 18 x 2400. If the 3300 will work on both motors, I safe most of weight I think. The 3300 or 2400 should bring some gramms more of thrust than the 4/5 FAUP. But also 2x900g should be still ok.

Heiner
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Old Nov 12, 2003, 02:20 AM
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Should give about 1200 and 1400g thrust for 16 and 18 cells.
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Old Nov 12, 2003, 03:17 AM
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Kevin Saunders (designer of Mini Viper which became Jepe Pyrhana) remodelled the inlet ducts and modified mini springairs to twist-tracts in his 2xHacker B50-26L + 26 cell + Jepe fan version which he flew all last year and which I did mention on this forum back then.

Low Kv motors are paralleled across the full 26 cells, each having its own ESC.

Battery stick uses Aeronaut system as Herb described, ie with batts on carbon rod.

Plane goes like stink, and certainly doesn't notice the weight of its 255g motors or retracts. Canards are fixed, and model slows down well for landing, besides being very manoeuvrable.

Gordon
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Old Nov 12, 2003, 03:19 AM
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I've found the reference.

For a fuller description of what Kev did, scroll down to the bottom of this page:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...?postid=468861

Gordon
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Old Nov 12, 2003, 11:12 AM
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nice gordon. I knew there had to be a way for retracts in twin engine model. Which retracts were used?
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Old Nov 12, 2003, 11:56 AM
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does anyone know what setup was in this 9 mb video?

http://www.rc-network.de/cgi-bin/ubb...5;t=000020;p=6

wemotec has setup on their website for 2 midi's and 2 HP 290-20-6 with 20-28 cells (2000 mind u)

http://www.wemotec.com/index_e.html
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Old Nov 12, 2003, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gordon
... certainly doesn't notice the weight of its 255g motors or retracts. ... Gordon
Gordon how much do you think his setup weighs? Emile posted some data a while ago (which I can't locate now) where he said that when he saw it in Holland the model felt quite heavy. But it did not fly either at that meeting, because of some landing gear problems.

As you can see from my pictures posted above the clearance between ducting and fuse is about 1 cm all around, which makes it extremely tight. In the case of a problem (and that is why I think he uses oleos) you might crack right through the ducting.... And that is perhaps the reason why all the other Rafales listed above skipped the retracts on the twin setup ...
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Old Nov 12, 2003, 03:32 PM
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how rough are the landings without retracts, presuming u land it on grass. Doesnt the paint or fuselage get damaged?
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Old Nov 12, 2003, 03:39 PM
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Hi Herb

I don't know the weight, but add 1/2lb for retracts and 6 oz for the motors over yours, and I guess it'll be 14oz up on yours. The plane probably does feel heavy in one's hands, especially with the battery pack in there, but being fast and sleek when at full chat, it doesn't seem that way in the air, getting upsatirs at a heck of a rate, and it can still manage multiple fast vertical rolls with the extra weight of the retracts. It flew at Colerne this year and took everyone's breath away as usual.

It still lands dead slow, and possibly the (fixed) canards have something to do with that. At full throttle, it gets small pretty quickly, either horizontally or vertically, I think that everyone on this thread who has one under construction is going to have more fun than they can imagine right now when they're done, especially with the amount of power input in prospect!!

I can't see why it should be too hard to fit a single big fan, as one could use the front part of the original ducting which is the complex bit, and link the ducts to one central duct. Of course one might choose softer plywood for the bulkheads

Kevin must have lifted the ducts, or might even have made his own.

Gordon
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Old Nov 12, 2003, 03:56 PM
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The single fan installation, when it will become available next year from Aeronaut, should make the retract installation a lot more manageable & durable. Perhaps on my second one ...

You don't lose much in performance by going with a single 120 mm fan, just the mystique of having that unmisteakable sound of a twin . In both cases the total area is around 101 cm^2.
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Old Nov 12, 2003, 05:24 PM
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I just went to order one on the net, and a supplier said there are 3 versions of Aeronaut Rafale! The Rafale C-01, C-02, and C-05!
What the heck is this?
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Old Nov 12, 2003, 07:39 PM
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I think that's the replacement parts ?

Ask for Best - 1347/00
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Old Nov 12, 2003, 07:51 PM
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Single Fan Rafale

Well, when the Single Fan Rafale is released it will be my next molded jet. Herb, your plane just looks so slick I really love the looks of the airplane and your doing a nice job on it. I am interested to see your color scheme.

I think the Single Fan Rafale will be awesome when the wheels are pulled up and the gear doors close up with the wheels it will be awesome. I am looking forward to the kits release.
Joe
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Old Nov 13, 2003, 11:25 AM
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where in the USA can u buy the aeronaut rafale?
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Old Nov 13, 2003, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit
where in the USA can u buy the aeronaut rafale?
i doubt anyone in the states carries it. your best bet is to order it from Wemotec...
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Old Nov 13, 2003, 11:51 AM
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The website says Hobby Lobby is their US distributor.

www.aeronaut.de then click on the Union Jack for the English pages, and the agent locator is on the left side.

Gordon
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Old Nov 13, 2003, 11:59 AM
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i have emailed hobby lobby. it is not on their website, so far, i have called a canada dealer, which has it on order. That is my best bet for now. I definitely want this plane now!
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Old Nov 13, 2003, 04:45 PM
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since my question was not answered before
does anyone here, particularly the senior members, know what setup was used in the plane on the top video?

right click on it and save target as

http://www.rc-network.de/cgi-bin/ubb...5;t=000020;p=6
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Old Nov 13, 2003, 08:17 PM
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Rafale

Amit, I answered your question to the best of my knowledge. I emailed Oliver at Wemotec and a friend. The plane is a probable prototype for the new Aeronaut single 124mm fan Rafale. I dont know what motor they used but I would guess that seeing the size of the fan it would be one of the big Plettenburg brushless motors. Either an HP 370/20/A3S or A2S 28-30 cells. Thats just from the information I got and the plane should be out sometime next year. Thats all I could find out and I tried because I want one also,
Joe
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Old Nov 13, 2003, 08:31 PM
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Joe
thank you for finding out. I wish i had connections but this is new hobby for me. That was a single engine? Why didnt they use retracts then? Ive actually seen that plane before on websites dated from 2001-2002. The same plane with "the batteries stuffed in" and someone was wondering how they secured the batteries. I dont remember where i saw it. Herb could you help out?

Anyone have videos of the twin engine Aeronaut Rafale?
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Old Nov 13, 2003, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit
where in the USA can u buy the aeronaut rafale?
EAM has had it on there web page for a year or so now. I don't know if they ever actually got it in stock though.
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Old Nov 13, 2003, 09:01 PM
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Aeronaut Rafale

Like Gregg says buy it from Wemotec like Herb did. I am waiting for the single fan version so that I can install retracts because of where I fly. I will run the big brushless Plettenberg and a big Lipo Thunder Power pack in mine.
Joe
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Old Nov 13, 2003, 09:08 PM
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here is where i saw that rafale
http://rc-network.de/magazin/artikel...3-0055-02.html
you may be right, if i can understand german, a single 120 mm impeller it looks like

i buying one from a canadian dealer.
I do plan on using 2 schuleber fans with 2 hacker xl B50 11 winds and 26 gp 3300 cells. Should be more than adequate thrust if my calculations are correct. Will use the beat 50-8-30 controllers too.
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Old Nov 13, 2003, 09:22 PM
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Amit, I didnt see the blue Rafale before I doubt its got retracts. The white one that looks just like Herbs in the pictures that he supplied and supplied the link to is a single fan prototype. From what I was told it will be out next year and will use the Aeronaut 124mm fan. And you will be able to install retracts in it. I will use Plettemberg A3S motor and a 9S4P 8000 Thunder Power Lipo, or whatever the current improved Lipo at the time.
In the mean time I am going to build my EJF Rafale with a single Midi Fan and Spring Airs. I am going to steal that blue camo paint scheme for my little Rafale its real cool looking
Good Luck with yours Amit
Joe
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Old Nov 13, 2003, 10:00 PM
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Based on the info from the german site that Raf have a 120mm diameter own design fan unit, Tango 45-08 motor and 28x3000mAh cells. 3,5kg all up weight (AUW) and 3kg thrust.
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Old Nov 13, 2003, 10:09 PM
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What's the usual thrust to weight ratio nessicary for "Jet Like Performance" ?
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Old Nov 13, 2003, 10:26 PM
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Its starting at .5/1 ratio
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Old Nov 13, 2003, 10:34 PM
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Fan

Thanks H, Oliver told me that the plane was going to use the Aeronaut 124mm fan. And that he would recommend the Plettenberg HP 370/20/A3S-A2S those motors are brushless aren't they Haldor?
Thanks Joe
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 01:48 AM
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joe
I honestly do not think a 124 mm fan can add up to the thrust of 2 ds 51 ph fan units with hacker motors. I fan can achieve up to 33 n of thrust. Imagine what 2 can do! see the schuleber site - again, sorry about the spelling!
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 03:37 AM
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Amit

You did say above that this stuff is new to you, so I guess you won't mind a spot of help.

Before you buy your motors, have a closer look at the performance graphs on the Schubi site. Specifically the current draw of a Schubi/12Xl at 26V, which will be a lot more than an 11XL on 26 cells.

If you plan to run both motors from one 26 cell pack which I susoect is all there's room for inside the fuz, you'll be expecting the cells to deliver way over 90A, which they won't for any meaningful flight time, or cell lifetime for that matter, regrettably.

With the GP3300s, which I do use in EDFs, I'd suggest that you aim for a max current of 50A.

Gordon
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 10:33 AM
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Gordon
i did think about the current draw, and now realize, that set up probably wont work due to high current draw.

Maybe i should go with the b50 7xl, so that I may run less cells per motor, and divide the cells up. HOwever I dont see data for that on the Schubeler site, and I think the flight time will be less.

Darn, I thought I had this figured out. I guess the main problem is the current draw. I have to figure out a way to have separate cell packs then.

Anyone know the maximum current draw for gp 3300s without frying them. Maybe i should use 4/5 FAUP's with 40 cells, however, i dont know if these cells tolerate higher than 50 amps.
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 11:32 AM
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Seperate packs should be no problem. Just use long sticks of cells, one for each fan/motor. Buddy the sticks allons side of the CF tube as designed. Then a heavy wire from the far end of the stick to the ESC.
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 11:46 AM
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Amit

I think that a valid point of view here would be that the Aeronaut Rafale is a medium sized EDF plane, that is, similar in size,weight etc to 90mm single-fan EDFs like the El Bandito & Bob-E-Cat. Granted, not everyone has seen these in action, neither have many folks seen my 44" span Schubi-fanned 20-22 cell MiG 15 in action. But they all do (for MiG, read "did " ) scoot pretty well on 20 cells and 45-50A into a 90mm fan.

Chris True flies his El Bandito on 26 cells and about 50A (please correct me if I'm wrong Chris, but the principle I'm gonna make will still stand) and Wade Joos flies his Bob-E-cat on 30 cells and about the same amps I think.

However, the point I'm making is that if you go for two low-Kv XL motors which will consume, say, 20-25A apiece on 26 cells and connect them in parallel (each with its own ESC) across the pack thus drawing 40-50A, you'll see one heck of an exciting performance.

Otherwise, as you say, if you pick high Kv motors and 13 cells apiece, drawing 45-50A or so from each pack separately, you'll see the same effect on your model.

One aspect of the 26-cells across both motors deal is that both lose power at the same rate as the battery drains, and you only have one pack to charge each re-charge. Another aspect of dual packs is that it's possible to drain one faster than the other, risking cell reversal if pack volts drops too low, unless the ESC cuts out reliably.

If you have 3 lots of cells, with 26-cell packs you'll only need to charge 3 packs instead of 6 13-cell packs, so refuelling will be quicker unless you have a dual output charger like the Schulze isl8-936, or two single-output chargers.

BTW, when Kevin Saunders pulls a 26-cell pack out of his Rafale after each blistering flight, they're generally too hot to hold, so cell ventilation will be a good thing

Gordon
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 12:26 PM
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gordon
thank you for all your help. I see my ignorance and aiming too high. I guess the best bet for this plane is not the DS 51 3 ph and may in fac t be the MIDI fans with plettenburg 220/30/A4 S P4 drawing maximum 35 amps each off 24-26 cells. I think the gp 3300 can handle 70 amps total, I hope. I will check with gp website.

The other point Ive been trying to make before, why not use a single DS 51 PH with 24 cells and a motor that produces the maximum 33 N of thrust. Not bad for a single 90 mm fan. I will definitely use this in the EJF Composite when I get it.
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 01:26 PM
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Herb
Sorry for all the novice posting.

I see cost savings important.
Have u considered twin plettenburg 220/30/A4 S P4 motors on 24-26 gp cells, producing maximum 70 amps draw with thrust of 36N or so by wemotec web site
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 05:54 PM
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Herb

Please can you explain the antenna arrangement you propose to use in the Rafale? Will you be using a vertical whip, or is the antenna internal, eg through a tube within the structure?

If the former arrangement, what sort of connector is used between Rx wire and the whip?

I'm trying to find a way of putting an external antenna on the Vector without having it sucked into the fan or tangled in the retracts, whilst the leading edge droops preclude running it up the le

Gordon
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gordon
Herb

Please can you explain the antenna arrangement you propose to use in the Rafale? Will you be using a vertical whip, or is the antenna internal, eg through a tube within the structure?

If the former arrangement, what sort of connector is used between Rx wire and the whip?

I'm trying to find a way of putting an external antenna on the Vector without having it sucked into the fan or tangled in the retracts, whilst the leading edge droops preclude running it up the le

Gordon
Gordon
is there enough room in the nose. i use a whip in the Bandito. a perfect fit. it uses a small bullet connector and being in the nose, it's away from the clutter..............gregg
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 06:25 PM
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Hi Gregg

That's the kind of arrangement I'm thinking of. Probably a 3.5mm Schulze type connector, with the socket glued into the nose forward of the canopy, with the Rx beneath, and about 25" of thin piano wire depending on how much I shorten the existing Rx antenna.

Does that sound feasible - like the darn thing isn't gonna drop out, is it?

There's so much wire inside the Vector with all the stuff I've put in there that I need to get the Rx away from it all, and the antenna outside.

Gordon
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gordon
Hi Gregg

That's the kind of arrangement I'm thinking of. Probably a 3.5mm Schulze type connector, with the socket glued into the nose forward of the canopy, with the Rx beneath, and about 25" of thin piano wire depending on how much I shorten the existing Rx antenna.

Does that sound feasible - like the darn thing isn't gonna drop out, is it?

There's so much wire inside the Vector with all the stuff I've put in there that I need to get the Rx away from it all, and the antenna outside.

Gordon
Gordon: this is the one i use. http://horizon.hobbyshopnow.com/prod...p?prod=RVO1010

excellent range. i don't know if they offer it in your hz range though.
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 07:14 PM
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Whip Antenna

Gregg, thank you I was wondering how I was going to route the antenna out the back of my El Bandito near all those RF producing servos You gave me the answer I will get one for my radio. Putting it in the nose also sounds like a real good idea.
Thanks Joe
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gordon
Herb

Please can you explain the antenna arrangement you propose to use in the Rafale? ...
Gordon, nothing fancy, just the antenna that comes with the Hitec double conversion receiver. Has always worked well for me.

Most likely initially just out of the canopy back and up to the fin tip, away from everything (as in the one sitting on the ramp on page 1)... actually seeing the antenna wire - and the condition it's in - gives me some peace of mind. As you know a broken antenna wire is one of the worst nightmares one can have ...

It could also run it out in a hole through the fuse bottom (right under the canopy) and then all the way to the back but I fear possible entanglement with the bungee cord. This setup would be as in MS's Rafale:
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Last edited by Herb; Nov 14, 2003 at 08:24 PM.
Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit
joe
I honestly do not think a 124 mm fan can add up to the thrust of 2 ds 51 ph fan units with hacker motors. I fan can achieve up to 33 n of thrust. Imagine what 2 can do! see the schuleber site - again, sorry about the spelling!
Hi amit,

do not expect to get that thrust installed in the Rafale.
The Rafale has only 43cm² outlet area that is 84% of the fsa of a DS51!
It will be interesting if someone would make thrust mesurements with the DS51 with several different outlet areas!

A fan with low blade numbers losses more thrust with a restricted outlet area than a fan with a high blade number!

Regards,

Ulf, who is thinking about a digital fish scale for mesuring the thrust installed in a plane.
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:16 PM
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Or a digital people scale.
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:18 PM
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Two questions:

1) I could not figure what those 5mm brass pins are supposed to do between the wing and the fuse in the back so I left them out for now ... I mean, they secure the wing further, but it's next to impossible then to get the fuse inserted between the wings with those two things sticking out ...

2) I am using only *one* layer of cloth on the *top* wing-to-fuse joint, but perhaps two layers on the bottom. That cloth is strong enough it seems.
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Last edited by Herb; Nov 14, 2003 at 08:27 PM.
Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
Gordon, nothing fancy, just the antenna that comes with the Hitec double conversion receiver. Has always worked well for me.

Most likely initially just out of the canopy back and up to the fin tip, away from everything (as in the one sitting on the ramp on page 2)... actually seeing the antenna wire - and the condition it's in - gives me some peace of mind. As you know a broken antenna wire is one of the worst nightmares one can have ...

It could also run it out in a hole through the fuse bottom (right under the canopy) and then all the way to the back but I fear possible entanglement with the bungee cord. This setup would be as in MS's Rafale:
Hi Herb,

I have the antenna in the right wing. There is about 25 cm left outside of the wing. The receiver is about 2 cm behind the canard shaft(which is 2cm behind the normal position) on the richt side of the fuselage.
It worked always perfect!
At the Rafale from Matthias I had a hold of the Graupner SMC190DS35 PCM receiver at a landing in Aspach 2002, I gave 25% throttle in the last landing corner and I had for about 0.5s to 1s no control!
I think the solution in the wing is better(more distance to the high current parts and no point antenna if the nose of the plane directs on you).

Best Regards,

Ulf
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
Two questions:

1) I could not figure what those 5mm brass pins are supposed to do between the wing and the fuse in the back so I left them out for now ... I mean, they secure the wing further, but it's next to impossible then to get the fuse inserted between the wings with those two things sticking out ...

2) I am using only *one* layer of cloth on the *top* wing-to-fuse joint, but two layers on the bottom. That cloth is strong enough it seems.
Hi Herb,

I used 1 layer 110g/m² on my and it is strong enough!
The glass of the wing is 45g/m², so one layer 110g/m² is plenty enough.

Best Regards,

Ulf
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Murray
Or a digital people scale.
Hi Kevin,

a people scale in not accurate enough as the maximum value is over 100kg! If the scale has 0,25% deviation it means 250g error!

A fish scale with 8kg maximum value with a DMS-tranceiver should much accurate!

Regards,

Ulf
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:30 PM
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So the PCM receiver went into failsafe mode ? Very luckey not to dump it locking up turning final.
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
Küchenwaage gibt's ja auch in Deutschland oder ?
Hallo Herb,

bei kleinen Werten geht das recht gut, wenn der Abstand Einlauf zum Boden mindenstens 5 mal Einlaufdurchmesser beträgt! Beim 90mm Impeller muß der Abstand 450mm betragen, daß ist recht unpraktisch.
Wenn man den Schub aber genau messen will, ist eine Zugwaage immer besser. Ich habe eine Fischwaage mit 10g Auflösung endeckt!

Beste Grüße,

Ulf
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Murray
So the PCM receiver went into failsafe mode ? Very luckey not to dump it locking up turning final.
Hi Kevin,

the rafale is flying on rails, not a real problem to loss 1 s the control, if it makes a hold.

Regards,

Ulf
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:35 PM
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My people scale reads down to 0.1 lb . And is repeatable. I don't know the error but is generaly 1 or at worst case times the lowest unit on the read out. So 1.6 to 3.2 ounces. An acceptable error in my opinion when weighing thrust totaling several Kg's.
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Murray
... So 1.6 to 3.2 ounces. An acceptable error in my opinion when weighing thrust totaling several Kg's.
... 3% (100g error on 3kg thrust) is a rather large error if you are trying to do relative measurements, as Ulf is describing!
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Murray
My people scale reads down to 0.1 lb . And is repeatable. I don't know the error but is generaly 1 or at worst case times the lowest unit on the read out. So 1.6 to 3.2 ounces. An acceptable error in my opinion when weighing thrust totaling several Kg's.
Hi Kevin.

That is 10 times more deviation than a good fish scale(+-0.01kg)!

Regards,

Ulf
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:45 PM
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Rafale

Hi Ulf, are you running a Single Aeronaut Fan in your Rafale and a set of retracts or are you running two fan and bungee launching the jet? I am looking forward to the release of the single fan version so that I can build the plane with Mini Spring Air retracts since I fly from pavement. I can hardly wait for its release,
Thanks Joe
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:47 PM
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Re: Rafale

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Elston
Hi Ulf, are you running a Single Aeronaut Fan in your Rafale and a set of retracts or are you running two fan and bungee launching the jet? I am looking forward to the release of the single fan version so that I can build the plane with Mini Spring Air retracts since I fly from pavement. I can hardly wait for its release,
Thanks Joe
Hi Joe,

I have two MidiFan in my Rafale without retracts and make a bungee launching.

Regards,

Ulf
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:50 PM
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Ulf
Hi Thank YOu for answering my questions. As always very pleasureable to hear from you

I was wondering if you could post your engine and esc setup in your twin engine rafale

What do you think about twin plettenburg 220/30/A4 S P4 motors on 24-26 gp cells, producing maximum 70 amps draw with thrust of 36N or so by wemotec web site

thanks
amit
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
... 3% (100g error on 3kg thrust) is a rather large error if you are trying to do relative measurements, as Ulf is describing!
I agree.
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 08:54 PM
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Hi Kevin.

That is 10 times more deviation than a good fish scale(+-0.01kg)!

Regards,

Ulf
Yes, A much better option.
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit
Ulf
Hi Thank YOu for answering my questions. As always very pleasureable to hear from you

I was wondering if you could post your engine and esc setup in your twin engine rafale

What do you think about twin plettenburg 220/30/A4 S P4 motors on 24-26 gp cells, producing maximum 70 amps draw with thrust of 36N or so by wemotec web site

thanks
amit
Hi amit,

the values on the Wemotec website are with a prototype motor with lower kv, so for 24 to 26 cell take twin HP220/30A5SP4(as I use with 7S4P TP8200). At 24V each motor pulls 25Amps and at 27V each motor pulls 30Amps.
Matthias is using 24 cells RC2400 with twin HP220/30A5SP4 with good results at 4.3 to 4.5 kg RTF weight.
My Rafale has a RTW weight of 3.1kg!
If the new Kokam 3.4Ah 20C cell will deliver really 68Amps continous I will switch to 8S1P Kokam 3400SHD, saving 300g and get from 1200W to 1600W
Ok, the flight time will then only 5 to 5.5min instead of the 15minutes now.
But after 7 minutes I am really finished!
At the moment I am doing two 6 to 7 minutes flights on one charge.

Regards,

Ulf
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 09:40 PM
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Ulf
Well I was close. I guess I will use the HP220/30A5SP4 although I dont know the exact diff between the A5 and A4 motor

How fast does Matthias's rafale fly?
Are future ESC's used, as recommended on wemotec web site?
thank you
amit
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Old Nov 14, 2003, 10:36 PM
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You can bet your boots they are Schulze controllers.
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