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Old Nov 05, 2003, 09:09 AM
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Herb

Those readings for the mega 22/20/2 were done with the HW-609 fan. I have tried the 22/20/2 in a schuebeler fan on 10 cells, and if I remeber correctly it was over 50 amps.

Mikael
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 09:14 AM
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Herb,

you said a Hitec HS-85 MG would be ok. The Hitec HS-81 MG has about 2,6 kg , the HS-85 3 kg . There are no HS-85 , sold out all over, but HS-81 I can get. Makes it that much difference?

Heiner
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
I looked again at Chris' data for the Mega ACn 22/20/2 in the Midi fan:

http://rcgroups.com/links/index.php?...at=206&id=3907

On 12 CP 2400 cells Chris gets about 52 Amps, or around 620 Watts (and 35 A on 10 CP 1700).

I'm trying to estimate the amps with the GP 3300's for the /2 and /3. Due to the lower impedance, 12 GP's could pull a bit more but not much .

The 22/20/3 I calculate at about 20 amps which is a bit lame on 12 cells. Just barely in the 300 Watts region on 14 cells...
That was in the 609 fan Herb.

What are you trying to accomplish? I have motors, I have cells and of course - I have fans.

I've come to the conclusion that for every 10 or 11 CP-2400's you can use one less GP3300 and get the same power - as long as you fly the GP's warm to hot.
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heiner Skroblin
Herb,

you said a Hitec HS-85 MG would be ok. The Hitec HS-81 MG has about 2,6 kg , the HS-85 3 kg . There are no HS-85 , sold out all over, but HS-81 I can get. Makes it that much difference?

Heiner
The HS-85's have a stronger gear train. Just a little heaver and 10 oz more torque. I've stoped buying 81's.
Try aircraft-world they ship
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris True
That was in the 609 fan Herb. ..
No wonder those numbers yesterday evening made no sense to me !!!

I calculated yesterday for the MidiFan a significantly higher amp draw:

22/20/2 on 8 GP cells -> ca. 48 A and 400 Watts
10 GP cells -> ca. 65 A and 630 Watts

22/20/3 on 12 GP cells -> ca. 33 A and 440 Watts
14 GP cells -> ca. 42 A and 630 Watts
16 GP cells -> ca. 51 A and 850 Watts

Anybody done a amp/watt measurement on either Mega motor?

----------

Chris I agree on the GP's, have been using them for a while. Pulling 850 Watts hot off the charger in my Jepe reno racer 22/30/3 with 8x8 apc on 12 Gp's. One year of flying it just about every weekend, 110 mph, motor barely gets warm at end of flight, lots of cooling. Rotor cooler than windings, and copper is not much affected by heat ...
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heiner Skroblin
Herb, you said a Hitec HS-85 MG would be ok. The Hitec HS-81 MG has about 2,6 kg , the HS-85 3 kg . ... Makes it that much difference?
Not much difference but a little more torque in the HS-85 MG for about the same weight and size. And a ball bearing I believe. I have two HS-81 MG in the JePe A-4 and they work fine . I also have two HS-81 MG in the MiG-15 and they have worked fine too for two years . Both are fast planes but deflections are usually quite small (except possibly just as you touch down).

JR makes very good sturdy and reliable resin gear servos too. I have those in my JePe F-16 & MiniViper.

I have a program that calculates needed servo torques as a function of surface size and geometry, speed and deflection angle. Often the servos used are complete overkill but offer good safety margins. I think JePe maybe right when he says his A-4 wil do fine on JR 9g servos ...
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
Anybody done a amp/watt measurement on either Mega motor?

I can give both a try. I'd say the 20/2 is OK to 50 ish amps and the /3 to maybe 40 on lower cell counts.

I'm running my 22/30/3 @ 45 amps on 30 cells. It has higher eficiency at high voltage. Even so, it is on the edge of blowing up! First flight with the Schubies motor cone attached the motor demagged on the landing rollout . It's been OK since I removed the cone and cut the motor tube back an inch or so.
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 12:28 PM
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45A x 30V that's 1350 Watts. I don't think I need that much per fan in the Rafale , the 22/20/x will do fine. If the 30 can take 1300 Watts, then the 20 should be able to take 800-900 W or so in relatively short burst and with plenty lot of cooling (I don't use cones).
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 12:34 PM
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1,600+ hot off the charger
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 05:46 PM
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OK, first test point. Took me a while to find my spare Midi

22/20/3 on 16 GP 3300's. I charged them, couldn't find the fan for a bit so put them on discharge. After 150 mah came out I found the fan so I pulled it off (still warm - hot) and did the run.

After 1000 mah + the 150 initial discharge 17.6 volts @ 45-46 amps. A little over 800 watts.

The motor was quite warm after 1000 mah out - I would not advise flying full throttle the whole flight in the summer. Bursts may be OK. This was with my old Schultze 55bo which has very agressive timing. Expect 3-5 amps less current depending on what more up to date controller you use. Actually, that in itself might be enough to make the motor much happier temp wise.

I'll try the /2 now.
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 07:10 PM
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22/20/2 draws 50 amps at 10.0 volts using a Jeti gold label ESC. Those were 1950's, GP's will be a volt higher so around 55 amps.
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 07:16 PM
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One more comment, I ran some tests on the 22/20/3 this summer when it was warm. 609 fan and 16 cells - circa 600 watts. After a 2 ah discharge at full throttle the motor temp was in the 67C area which then spiked to 70-72C.
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 08:14 PM
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Thanks for the measurements Chris .

Glad my calculated and your measured numbers agree completely for the /3 (850 Watts on 16 cells), in the /2 case I think your 1950's are getting taxed at 50 A, that probably explains the lower numbers you get. We agree the numbers will go up I bit with the GP's (around 55x11= 600W on 10 cells) so we agree there too. I think now I can go ahead and order the motors...

70C short temperature max is fine for the Megas I think.
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
70C short temperature max is fine for the Megas I think.
I agree, the /2 @ 600 watts should be right there. 850 on the /3 would get a little warmer
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Old Nov 05, 2003, 08:36 PM
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Kind of late on this but if it helps, I run the 20/3 in my Midi Fan Mirage and on 12 cp 1700's it runs 27 amps amps330 watts. Not what your looking at but atleast it's an actual measured setup, in a Midi, to help you judge by.

Barry
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 12:19 AM
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Btw here's an example of how you look at a thread that's been saved (in this case, by me) as an html archive file:

html archive file

You look at the file and search in an instant up and down - just like any other modern document format - for what you are looking for without having to download & save individually 58 pages or so and go blind in the process.

The rcgroup software does not seem to support this simple & useful feature .
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 01:01 AM
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Herb,

I did some calculations yesterday evening with my stuff I want to set in. The FUN 600-15 will do very well on 20 x 4/5 C Cells, I mesured ca. 1400 g static thrust for each, that makes 2800 g thrust togather. 20 off them have a weight of 1000g.

20 x 4/5 FAUP , not hot from the loader, just 1000g thrust, weight 900g. Hoping hot of the loader they bring more Amps. I want to set in 2 x20 of them if thrust will climb up to 1200-1300g.


If you are looking for 800 W on your Rafale by using 3300 cells, how long will they last during a flight? Or do you set in 2 packs, but then you have to carry a high load?

Heiner
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 01:49 AM
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Yes I am thinking of two GP packs, each 10-14 cells depending on Mega wind (/2 vs. /3), so a total of 20-28 sub-c cells which is what is stated on the Rafale box .

If you use the FAUP's you will indeed save some weight but not a whole lot percentage-wise. But it will be lighter. It does make sense for you to re-use as much equipment as you can. It should fly fine on the 600-15's with the right cell count.

The Rafale is quite big yet very light, and won't need a whole lot of power to fly decently, in fact it flew originally on twin speed 600's in aeronaut fans ... I would estimate that above 800-1000 Watts it will fly well. So if you get 400-500 Watts per motor you should be fine.

At 600 Watts each fan will give about 13.5 N thrust (ca 47 oz) with an efflux of about 47 m/sec (105 mph). There will be some ducting losses in the 10% range. The outlet I measured at 100% fsa (75 mm), so it might have to be reduced by 0.9 in diam. to around 68 mm.

I would look into 1 x 20 GP 3300 pack versus 2 x 20 FAUP packs. You will lose some duration but save weight & complexity.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 02:24 AM
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Herb,

That is what Mike mesured on his homepage for the 600-15

FUN 600-15 16 Sanyo. 17,30 Volt 26,00 A 23338 U/min 450 Watt 1075 gr. 7 min
FUN 600-15 18 Sanyo. 19,40 Volt 32,00 A 26043 U/min 621 Watt 1342 gr. 6 min
FUN 600-15 20 Sanyo. 20,70 Volt 36,50 A 27399 U/min 756 Watt 1456 gr 5,4 min

Do you think I could make a try by using my 2 x 8 x 3300 packs?

That results 52 A full throttle or 72 A in case of 20. I think 2 packs of 20 x 3300 makes it far over 4 kg! By using the 2 x 20 4/5 FAUP I will stay below 4 kg.

Heiner
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 08:31 AM
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I'm using a 600-15 in my Panther (Schubie) and like Heiner will be using 20x FAUP's. With 20xCP1700's I measured 900W/41A inside the model.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heiner Skroblin
Herb, ... Do you think I could make a try by using my 2 x 8 x 3300 packs? ... Heiner
I think the MM numbers give you everything you need. You can go with either two separate FAUP packs, one for each motor. Or two GP 3300 packs of 8-9 cells, connected in series (I think that is what you mean, right?). Even two 10 cell packs in series could work, amp draw will be a bit high initially. You will just have to see what controller(s) you use.

In the latter case you will have something like 2 x 450 = 900 Watts or 2 x 620 = 1240 Watts which should be plenty. (two packs of 20 x 3300 is way too heavy!!).

I personally prefer to have to deal with less number of cells if I can. That makes the pack maintenence easier. And I prefer to standardize in cell type. And the GP have just about the highest energy density (Watt-hour/gram) in NiCd/NiMHd.

There is also the issue of cost, 2 FAUP cells will cost you more than one GP 3300 cells, almost twice as much, but with only a small loss in capacity & duration.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 02:17 PM
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Rafale single fan retract setup:

( http://www.rc-network.de/cgi-bin/ubb...5;t=000020;p=6 )
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 02:19 PM
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Haldor is that with the new improved Schubie fan, old or a Midi fan ?

The data from MM , a Schubie fan, Fun 600-15, 20 cells is 741 watts.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 02:35 PM
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Herb thanks for posting that retract pis and the link. That is fantastic work of those ply formers. I'll run it through BabbleFish later.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 02:41 PM
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20 cell CP 1700 pack fits well between ducts with plenty of room.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 02:43 PM
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Rafale

Herb, thats a beauty of an airplane the formers look great on the retract plane. He also installed the gear doors as I will and it should work out well. Your plane is also very sharp the glasswork looks just superb. I am drooling on the keyboard every time you post new pics. My next molded aircraft will be the Aeronaut Rafale. Herb do you know if there is a version for a single fan? And can I get one from Wemotec?
Thanks Joe
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 02:44 PM
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fan mounted in a fiberglass ring holder. No screws, just ge silicone ii glue like what I used for the jepe fans. Reduced vibrations and noise.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 02:45 PM
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Ducting and intakes completed & securely glued in place.
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Last edited by Herb; Nov 18, 2003 at 12:37 PM.
Old Nov 06, 2003, 02:47 PM
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wing root rib laminated with epoxy
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 02:48 PM
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Servos mounted in the wings
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 02:49 PM
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Servo arm exits through small hole in wing
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 02:52 PM
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Holes in fuse top to give better grip to epoxy for vert stab. Surface still needs to be rough sanded.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 02:56 PM
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And same procedure for wing root.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 03:26 PM
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Herb
Look's as if it might be ready for Arizona jets, with it being ROG , it will be playing with the "Heavy Metal"
From the Dark Side
Semper Fi
joe
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 03:28 PM
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You mean heavy as in "lead" ??
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 03:39 PM
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You didn't decide on retracts have you Herb ?
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 03:45 PM
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Herb the fan mounting system you used is it held in place with silicone sealant, the same as your servos for a bit of give vibration wise.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 03:46 PM
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yes the silicone is slow cure but very strong. I love it.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 03:51 PM
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Good thread by the way a lot to learn here i am in the background watching this one, love the ease of building with glass a fuse must try it one day.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 03:52 PM
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Silicone

I too use Silicone to install servos ETC but I use Ultra Blue RTV Silicone it has no smell, big plus for me and its sensor and electronics safe. Regular silicone if used in an area where the fumes can sit by your radio equipment can and I stress can cause corrosion on the electronics. So I use the Ultra BLue Sensor Safe. It costs a couple more bucks but it workd great for me. Herb is right its an over night cure but make a great cushion and keeps vibration to a minimum.
Joe
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Murray
You didn't decide on retracts have you Herb ?
No retracts on mine. Aeronaut will be coming out next year with what they describe as Hosenrohr or pants-like intake for single 120mm fan, as the one you see in the photo (that one in fact could be their prototype).

Perhaps then fitting retracts will be a lot easier . The performance seems pretty good on the single fan setup.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 06:14 PM
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Rafale

Well, I just found my next molded jet the Aeronaut Rafale with a single 120mm fan and retracts. That plane in the pictures looks so clean I want one. Thanks for the information Herb. I have a question though since thats a pretty big fan which brushless motor would I run in a fan of that size? I imagine it would need to be at least a 20 cell motor? Sounds like the plane would be a good airplane for Lipos. But I dont know what motors could be used. Herb does Wemotec make 120mm fan.
Thanks Joe
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 06:47 PM
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Re: Rafale

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Elston
Herb does Wemotec make 120mm fan.
Thanks Joe
http://www.wemotec.com/index_e.html
it's in english.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 09:01 PM
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Looks like they have a 105 and 124 mm fans.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 09:28 PM
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HW 750

I emailed Oliver about the single fan Rafale and I figured that the closest fan size would be the HW 750. I dont know of any brushless motors that are big enough to produce about 1200 watts in the 750. I asked him if I could get the kit with the formers and ducting for a single and sent him the link that Herb has posted so he can see what I want. A Rafale with a single fan and retracts so I will let you guys know what he says.
Joe
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 10:18 PM
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Joe,

The Wemotec web site says to use an HP 370.
Just click on products and HW750 and it gives you two choices for 28 or 30 cells. I'm sure that's over 1200 watts

Steve C
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 10:37 PM
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Motors

Cool Steve, thanks I bet that is one hefty motor. I would think since both motors are the same price I would get the 370/30/A2S for 30 Cells. I dont know anything about Plettenbergs but you think that on 30 cells this motor will give me 1200 watts, Steve?
And that should motivate the Rafale and with the single fan retracts can be installed. The plane needs Lipos thats for sure just so it can lose a pound in batteries alone.
Joe
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Murray
Haldor is that with the new improved Schubie fan, old or a Midi fan ?

The data from MM , a Schubie fan, Fun 600-15, 20 cells is 741 watts.
Hi Kevin.

That measurement was with the newest Schubie and 20xCP1700's. Around 22V/41A HOC.

If you see MM's data on Schubie/Midifan the input numbers are not far from eachother.
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Old Nov 06, 2003, 11:50 PM
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Motors

I would imagine so Joe. You'd only have to pull about 35 amps to get over that number on 30 cells.

I think MM did a test with the Tango motor in the HW fans too.

Steve C
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 12:34 AM
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I was knocking around the 370/30/A2S motor for my HW750, but after talking to Dieter I may try out a lehner but I'm not sure of what the equivalant would be.
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 01:03 AM
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Hallo,

I am looking for the HW750 in my HE-162 Salamander. The TANGO 45-8 will fit in , that I am using in my ME-163 now.

TANGO 45-08 13,90 Volt 20,10 A 10668 U/min 279 Watt 800 U/Volt 1006 gr. 29,4 m/sec.
TANGO 45-08 16,10 Volt 26,00 A 12470 U/min 419 Watt 1345 gr. 34,0 m/sec.
TANGO 45-08 18,20 Volt 31,50 A 13794 U/min 573 Watt 1671 gr. 37,8 m/sec.
TANGO 45-08 19,40 Volt 36,40 A 14772 U/min 706 Watt 1951 gr. 40,9 m/sec.
TANGO 45-08 20,70 Volt 40,70 A 15737 U/min 842 Watt 2185 gr. 43,3 m/sec.
TANGO 45-08 22,60 Volt 48,10 A 17296 U/min 1087 Watt 2568 gr. 46,9 m/sec.
TANGO 45-08 23,70 Volt 53,10 A 17850 U/min 1258 Watt 2761 gr. 48,7 m/sec.

Heiner


@ Herb,

I almost have enough cells in 4/5 FAUP or 3300 for the Rafale. More than 40 cells of each, so I can try any combination of them. I feared that a single 18 cell pack will be cooked after the flight because of high Amps. Do you think 800 W is enough for an jet with close to 4 kg??

Heiner
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 01:53 AM
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Some pictures of Joerg Rehms new Rafale with retracts







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Old Nov 07, 2003, 02:02 AM
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Mike,

Herb posted them 2 pages up!

Is Joerg selling the ply parts for those you want to set in an single 120 mm fan and retracs?

Heiner
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 07:08 AM
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Mike have you tested the Fun 600-18 in a Schubeler DIA-51 3sh useing Thunder Power LiPo cells ?

I bought two of the 600-18, Beat 55-6-18 planning on 16 GP3300's each.
I have 4 TP 7800 3s4p packs. I've been considering useint the LiPo's instrad of NiMH. MotoCalc gives MUCH higher amp draws with the LiPo's. If this so I have the wrong ESC's.

Is this so ?
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 11:17 AM
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This sure is a nice kit.

All I have to do now, is order a little simjet for it :-)

















SJ.
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heiner Skroblin
@ Herb,

I almost have enough cells in 4/5 FAUP or 3300 for the Rafale. More than 40 cells of each, so I can try any combination of them. I feared that a single 18 cell pack will be cooked after the flight because of high Amps. Do you think 800 W is enough for an jet with close to 4 kg??

Heiner
4 kg sounds a lot on 800 W only. I suspect it won't be such a great flier on that kind of weight .

The FAUP's are good up to about 30-40 A, the GP 3300's take a lot more, I know 55 A continuous is fine (have been flying them for a while) and probably 60 or even some more they can take.

The problem with a lot of batt weight is the risk of cracking the fuse or the intakes on some not so perfect landings. And probably the need for functional canards during the landing phase.

My lighter planes are generally more enjoyable to fly, albeit usually for shorter periods. I don't like lead sleads even with lots of power. That's just my taste.
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 01:36 PM
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The way to install the wings, seems a little weak......
Has anyone re-inforced theirs?

How fast does it fly on a good setup?
And how much thrust do you get with these high end edf`s ?

Thanks, SJ.
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Murray
... planning on 16 GP3300's each.
I have 4 TP 7800 3s4p packs. ... MUCH higher amp draws with the LiPo's. ...
32 GP cells is quite a lot of weight, on top of the retracts ?

I am worried that the wings won't stay on for long at weight > 3.5 kg or so, I already slightly dented a bottom wing surface trying to clean it , they are quite delicate. As an electric it seems it was designed for light setups.

The 3s Lipos bring you in the 3 x 3.5 = 10.5 V range, that's a lot less than 16 GP cells so now I'm confused. Perhaps you mean then two packs in series, 21V?
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 01:47 PM
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Wouldn't the 22/30/2 (or 3turn) be a better choice than the 22/20 for the Midi? I'm using the 2 turn on 18 cells at about 50 amps with no problems yet.

Steve C
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 02:03 PM
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Steve for 1200 Watts total (ca 160 Watts/pound) you only need about 600 Watts per motor. The 22/20/3 does fine at those power levels and saves you something like two ounces (ok 1.87 oz) per motor . I have the 22/30/3 and it barely gets warm at 60+A 800 Watts in the Reno racer. I thought of the 30/2 but it seemed a slight overkill ...

My concern is that the efflux in the Midi at 600W is abit low without restrictions.
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 02:16 PM
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What is this word, "overkill"???

I see what you mean. If the lighter motor can survive at the power you're looking for, then weight savings is worth having.

Steve C
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 02:20 PM
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Look good german speed 480 brushless can take 500-700 watts for short periods ...
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Murray
Mike have you tested the Fun 600-18 in a Schubeler DIA-51 3sh useing Thunder Power LiPo cells ?

I bought two of the 600-18, Beat 55-6-18 planning on 16 GP3300's each.
I have 4 TP 7800 3s4p packs. I've been considering useint the LiPo's instrad of NiMH. MotoCalc gives MUCH higher amp draws with the LiPo's. If this so I have the wrong ESC's.

Is this so ?
Kevin: i replaced a 20xhr2600 pack with a 6s4p8200 and actually draw 1a less...........gregg
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb

The 3s Lipos bring you in the 3 x 3.5 = 10.5 V range, that's a lot less than 16 GP cells so now I'm confused. Perhaps you mean then two packs in series, 21V?
Yes, two 3s4p's per motor/fan or

three 3s4p's running the two motors in series each seeing the voltage of 4& 1/2 s 4p.

I just need to wire it up and see what I draw. MotoCalc is off.
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gregg f
Kevin: i replaced a 20xhr2600 pack with a 6s4p8200 and actually draw 1a less...........gregg
Gregg - What is your amperage draw ? And how much is the voltage drop with that amperage draw ?
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Murray
Gregg - What is your amperage draw ? And how much is the voltage drop with that amperage draw ?
Kevin: 41 now, it was 42. this is with a b50-16l/schubie combo.
i don't recall what the voltage drop was. i think the amp draw is less because the 6s voltage is less than the 20 cell pack hoc. at 30 sec to a minute, the draw was about the same.........
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gregg f
Kevin: 41 now, it was 42. this is with a b50-16l/schubie combo.
i don't recall what the voltage drop was. i think the amp draw is less because the 6s voltage is less than the 20 cell pack hoc. at 30 sec to a minute, the draw was about the same.........
... and after 6 mins the TP win hands down
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Haldor
... and after 6 mins the TP win hands down
So true. I don't foresee any going back.
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gregg f
Kevin: 41 now, it was 42. this is with a b50-16l/schubie combo.
i don't recall what the voltage drop was. i think the amp draw is less because the 6s voltage is less than the 20 cell pack hoc. at 30 sec to a minute, the draw was about the same.........
Thanks gregg.

When I run up my Fun 600-18 / Shcubie / TP 6s4p I'll post the findings.
Probably start a Schubeler Fan Data Thread.
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by SJ
The way to install the wings, seems a little weak......
Has anyone re-inforced theirs? ... Thanks, SJ.
The wings seem weak at first, but by the time they are glued in the recommended way to the fuselage they should be ok. There's as you know a wing spar but it stops at the root.

I doubt they would take too much weight though ( > 4kg) for long periods of time but who knows, will have a better idea next week ...

Put some more flights in today on the MiG-15 & A-4, too bad the days are getting shorter, the visibilty wasn't great at 4pm ... Must be over the 100 flight mark with the first batch of GP 3300's ...
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Murray
Thanks gregg.

When I run up my Fun 600-18 / Shcubie / TP 6s4p I'll post the findings.
Probably start a Schubeler Fan Data Thread.
i'd guess you'll be around 52a with your set up...........gregg
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 11:20 PM
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OK, That I can tolerate. I bought Beat 55-6-18 's
They're rated at 55 A , 70 A for 15 sec.
The 25 volt max printed on the speed controler has me worried that I bought too small. It all will depend on how much the voltage dropps under load. I guess that I Have 7800 packs and not the "Dynamic" 8200's works in my favor in this case.
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Old Nov 07, 2003, 11:32 PM
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If the voltage under load is too high for comfort I can always drop a cell, going to 11s4p. With the power units in series this would lower the voltage just under 2 volts.
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Old Nov 08, 2003, 02:48 AM
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Good Morning!

I checked it yesterday.
A setup with 2 Minifan, powered with 2 x FUN 480-37 will also deliver 1500 g thrust at 11-12 cells 3300.
We would save a lot of weight. 250 g less motor weight, 700 g less cells. !?

Here some calculations on that:

1. Rafale 2 x FUN 600-15, 2 x 20 4/5 FAUP ca. 4200 g total weight
2 x 750W, 2 x 1400 g static thrust, 4200/2800 = 1,5:1
(weight:thrust) MIDIFAN

2. Rafale 2 x FUN 400-36, 2x10 4/5FAUP ca. 2200g total weight
2x430 W, 2 x 800 g thrust, 2200/1600 = 1,4:1 (Minifan)

3. Rafale 2 x FUN 400-36, 1 x 10 3300
2000g/1600 = 1,25:1

I do have all the stuff at home, may be I give the first try on 2 x Minifan, powered by 2 x FUN 400-36. About half the weight of all!
But I have to modify the tubes to smaller dimensions then.

Heiner
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Old Nov 08, 2003, 02:54 AM
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I'm curious to see how the controller works for you Kevin, I am right about at those figures for a twin,but smaller, EDF setup I'm doing. I wont have the as high of a voltage but loads will be close.

Barry
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Old Nov 08, 2003, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heiner Skroblin
... May be I give the first try on 2 x Minifan, powered by 2 x FUN 400-36. About half the weight of all! ...
Heiner
Heiner ... take out your calculator ... most of your weightsaving is in the batteries . But you do need the power (in Watts) to fly this thing no matter what motors you use.

The MinFans are excellent fans but larger fans are more efficient in moving th air around. You'll lose quite a bit in efficiency and won't quite get the thrust (Midifan is +2N already at 450 Watts).
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Old Nov 09, 2003, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
Yes I am thinking of two GP packs, each 10-14 cells depending on Mega wind (/2 vs. /3), so a total of 20-28 sub-c cells which is what is stated on the Rafale box .

If you use the FAUP's you will indeed save some weight but not a whole lot percentage-wise. But it will be lighter. It does make sense for you to re-use as much equipment as you can. It should fly fine on the 600-15's with the right cell count.

The Rafale is quite big yet very light, and won't need a whole lot of power to fly decently, in fact it flew originally on twin speed 600's in aeronaut fans ... I would estimate that above 800-1000 Watts it will fly well. So if you get 400-500 Watts per motor you should be fine.

At 600 Watts each fan will give about 13.5 N thrust (ca 47 oz) with an efflux of about 47 m/sec (105 mph). There will be some ducting losses in the 10% range. The outlet I measured at 100% fsa (75 mm), so it might have to be reduced by 0.9 in diam. to around 68 mm.

I would look into 1 x 20 GP 3300 pack versus 2 x 20 FAUP packs. You will lose some duration but save weight & complexity.
Hi Herb,

the MidiFan has 49.6cm² ring area, so the 75mm outlet diameter(44.2cm²) is 89% fsa.
My Rafale has 74mm outlet diameter(43cm²) that is 87% fsa.

Best Regards,

Ulf
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Old Nov 09, 2003, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
I am still waiting for Ulf to tell me how he secured his batteries ...
Hi Herb,

here are some pictures:
1.Picture show the canard mechanic.
The carbon tube is from a 6.7mm arrow shaft.
The bearing are two 30mm aluminium tubes.
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Old Nov 09, 2003, 04:53 PM
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I forgot the canard axle is 20mm behind the original holes.
That gives lower forces for the servo and the linkage.
Also there is more space left at installing or removing the batteries.
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Old Nov 09, 2003, 04:54 PM
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Here you can see the velcro tape at the bottom of the fuselage which hold the the 3S4P TP8200 battery. on the top of the 3S4P TP8200 battery is also with velcro tape a 4S4P TP8200 battery mounted. I use two spruce sticks holding the battery down. one of these is placed directly in fron of the first former(the former which hold also the canard servo).
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Old Nov 09, 2003, 04:58 PM
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That picture shows the position of the battery
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Old Nov 09, 2003, 05:00 PM
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That picture shows the position of the speed controllers.
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Old Nov 09, 2003, 05:06 PM
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Here is the flight battery:

on the top a 4S4P TP8200 battery and at the bottom a 3S4P TP8200 battery. At both batteries the red wire is shorted a lot as the are in series connection( saved about 15g!) and the wire length is shorted about 50 cm(less losses and less trouble for the speed controller!
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Old Nov 09, 2003, 05:59 PM
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Thanks Ulf for posting the pictures and for the email in the past descrbing the Li Po instelation method.

What servo are you useing on the Canards ? By the looks of it you are useing a single servo and tha canards are mounted on a common rotating shaft ?
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Old Nov 09, 2003, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Murray
Thanks Ulf for posting the pictures and for the email in the past descrbing the Li Po instelation method.

What servo are you useing on the Canards ? By the looks of it you are useing a single servo and tha canards are mounted on a common rotating shaft ?
Hi Kevin,

yes, I am using a single servo for the Canards:
It is a Volz Micro Maxx. The Shaft is a 6.7mm cabon tube.

Regards,

Ulf
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Old Nov 09, 2003, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ulf Herder
Hi Herb,

the MidiFan has 49.6cm² ring area, so the 75mm outlet diameter(44.2cm²) is 89% fsa.
My Rafale has 74mm outlet diameter(43cm²) that is 87% fsa.

Best Regards,

Ulf
Thanks for the battery mount pictures, that's more or less how I had imagined it based on your previous description ...

I originally used the number that's listed on the WeMotec page as the effective area . Tonight I took out a mm ruler and measured it myself, my Midifans have a geometric annular area of about 48.3 cm^2. I also re-measured the Rafale outlet, the glass 73 mm outlet without cone is about 87 % of that value, so the numbers are close.
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 01:35 AM
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@ Herb,

you are right, most of the weight is in the batteries. But to drive 2 x FUN 600-15 needs a lot more batteries than 2 x FUN 400-36 in a Minifan needs.
For now I leave the Midis in, all major works is done, just waiting for the servos. Canards fixed to save the extra weight, but its easy to cut them off later and set in some crank to move them. (like Ulf did)

Heiner
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heiner Skroblin
@ Herb ... to drive 2 x FUN 600-15 needs a lot more batteries than 2 x FUN 400-36 in a Minifan needs.
For now I leave the Midis in ...
The Minifan is for smaller models. It makes no sense to try to fly a nine pound model on twin minifans .

A large model needs power and that you can only get out of the MidiFan or similar 90 mm fans here.

I've used the Minifan 480 at up to 740 Watts in my MiG-15 but the Midi will be quite a bit more efficient in that power range, unless the model is of course very fast.
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 12:51 PM
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I also got a chance yesterday to talk to AstroBob and see the new brand new astro brushless motors, 39 mm can diameter (speed 600 size). I believe they are called 25 (short can) and 40 (long can).

The ones with a kv of 2000 and 3000 should be suitable for edf, very roughly in the 20 cell and 12 cell range respectively, for popular fans.

The magnets are high temperature SmCo, but the epoxy encased windings are limited to well below the nominal 200 degrees celsius. With the longer run times of NiMhd cells, cooling & heat transport is always a considerations.

He has a cooling sleeve for heli motors, but the lamelles go the wrong way for edf ....
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 01:44 PM
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why not use the schlueber 90 mm fan in the rafale?
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heiner Skroblin
@ Herb, For now I leave the Midis in, all major works is done,...
Btw I found that the Midis are slightly larger in diameter than the Aeronaut fans for which it was originally designed, the intakes have to be stretched and filled a bit at the seam on the fan side.
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 02:21 PM
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Kevin Murray
"It's been on there page a couple of years, I never read a post of one flying
"

were u referring to the EJF rafale?
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Herb
Btw I found that the Midis are slightly larger in diameter than the Aeronaut fans for which it was originally designed, the intakes have to be stretched and filled a bit at the seam on the fan side.
Hi Herb,

the outer diameter of the MidiFan is larger than the Aeronaut Fan,
but the inner diameter of the midifan(89mm) is smaller than the inner diameter of the aeronaut fan(90mm). The fan housing of the MidiFan is made of ABS and the fan housing of the Aeronaut TurboFan is made of GFK.

I have cut the intake at the plywood former and did not use the step of the intake(total removed)! I used then a plywood ring glued to the Midifan to mount the fan with 3 screws to the main former.

Best Regards,

Ulf
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by amit
Kevin Murray
"It's been on there page a couple of years, I never read a post of one flying
"

were u referring to the EJF rafale?
No, I was refering to the twin Mini Fan Rafale from Offshore.
It's been on there page for a while. I've never heard of one flying mentioned here on The EZone.

The EJE Rafale flies. I've read several reports. I've talked to Ivan about his.
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 05:24 PM
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Kevin
I was planning on building one from EJF when the molded glass version is ready with the schulebuer 90 mm fan. Sorry about the spelling. Have u heard of anyone here with this set up? I was going to use a hacker b50 xl with 11 wind and 20-24 gp 3300's.
SInce i am a newbie here, have been here for suggestions. I know this is the bigger rafale thread, but stil, a great plane
thanks
amit
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 06:35 PM
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I think either Bob Ruff or Renolds (sp ?) did one on a 90 mm fan.
You can search Rafale but somr of the old threads were lost some two years ago to a hard drive failure.
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 07:25 PM
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EJF Rafale

I have an EJF Rafale M Kit that I bought the formers and ducting for a single Midi Fan. It allows me to install Mini Spring Airs in the plane and actually use gear doors and install the landing gear in the scale positions. My kit is an older presheeted foam core wing and fiberglass fuselage without any cutouts in it except for the cockpit. I searched for a year for the kit and did some trading to have a set of formers made and the ducting made from Carbon fiber. The glass work of the fuse is excellent and light. I am really looking forward to installing a hot motor and Lipos in my plane and will have functioning canards also. I was so happy to get a Rafale that will accept retracts that I parted mine together.

I emailed Oliver at Wemotec about the big single fan Aeronaut Rafalle. He didnt know much about it but did say they used an Aeronaut fan.


Robert at EJF has told me he expects to begin producing composite Rafalles this December.

Joe
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 07:28 PM
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Cells

Amit, I would think that 20-24 cells would be allot of cells for the EJF Rafalle to carry its really not that big of an airplane. I am using a Lipo pack to keep the weight down and have the room I need.
Joe
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 07:53 PM
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Servo lead goes directly into fuse front,
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Old Nov 10, 2003, 07:54 PM
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Inside view with servo leads. Note the slots that need to be cut into sides of the ducting to accomodate the ply former.
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