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Old Nov 07, 2011, 02:47 PM
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tolice's Avatar
Curitiba, PR, Brasil
Joined Aug 2010
95 Posts
Question
Front Wheel vs Tail Wheel

Hello all.

Actually I am having problems with my Great Planes PT-60 front wheel. Never suceed a land without something wrong. I build the kit with the "lightweight" thinking. The model actually weights 3.9kg AUW, the motor is a OS 65 LA, not so heavy.
Sometimes the support of the wheel broken (that is part of the great planes motor mount), other time the wire bends towards, sometimes the plastic piece slide out of the wire that comes form rudder servo.

The wire that came with the kit for the nose gear is 3/16'', it's not thin.

So, I am wondering about converting this model in a tail wheeled. But I don't know what are the pros & cons of the 2 modes (front or tail wheel).

Can you help me?
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Old Nov 07, 2011, 03:59 PM
Registered User
Florida
Joined Aug 2004
3,998 Posts
Some may disagree but most of the people that have flown tail draggers will say they prefer them over a trike gear, especially if flying off grass fields. Just be sure you adhere to two general rules: have the axles of the main gear just a bit forward of the CG and always have a little toe in built in. If you get the gear to far forward, take offs can be difficult and landings will almost always result in lot of bounces; get it to far aft and you have trouble nosing over during taxi.
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Old Nov 07, 2011, 04:09 PM
I'm a pilot... 100 yrs to late
Thermalin's Avatar
USA, FL, Palm Harbor
Joined Jan 2005
3,423 Posts
you shouldnt be having all those issues with beding wires, etc in your nose gear unless your comging down hard on the nose? Ideally it's all 3 at once or the mains then the nose.
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Old Nov 07, 2011, 04:26 PM
I bail out, anywhere, anytime
Taurus Flyer's Avatar
The Netherlands, OV, Almelo
Joined Nov 2010
2,585 Posts
tolice

Some time ago I did make an educational! video, use headphones to hear the engine!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=MBvtbA0wp3k

I do fly this Taurus for nearly 600 flights now.
Nearly 4 kg and MVVS 10CCM so to compare with your PT60
In the slow motion you can see the front leg in detail and when of good design it can withstand a lot of deformation.
Have attention for 2min 51sec.

The speed in touch and go maneuvers is 40 km/h, is 25 mph.

I fly both, nose wheel and tailwheel.
With a nosewheel it is easy to keep the track and nose over nearly isn't possible as you can see in the video!!
Important is the length adjustment for grass or plaved runways, for grass the noseleg normally has to be longer.
A well designed tricycle undercarriage also prevents to take off with too low speed.
There is more to tell about differences! The easy way, a taildragger is more complicated in take-off and landing than a tricycle. If you want to know more differences, let me know.

Cees
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Old Nov 07, 2011, 06:53 PM
-insert witty saying here-
Hemikiller's Avatar
United States, CT, Killingworth
Joined Dec 2005
1,662 Posts
These will solve your problem, strongest nose gear made...

http://fultstooling.com/page7.htm
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Old Nov 08, 2011, 05:16 AM
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tolice's Avatar
Curitiba, PR, Brasil
Joined Aug 2010
95 Posts
Hemi, GREAT!!!
I will try to order a Fults RF500. But it seems to be discontinued in all online hobby shops. Sent a mail to Fults sales.
Thank you so much.

Taurus, I will train more touch'n'gos, it will help me a lot in landings.

I will stay with the trike gear.

Thank you all for helping me.
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Old Nov 08, 2011, 08:07 PM
Illegitimi non carborundum
grosbeak's Avatar
Joined Mar 2011
1,097 Posts
I upgraded to a Sullivan S865 nose gear in my 71" Hobbistar and it's been great. You can see it clearly here:

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Old Nov 09, 2011, 11:04 AM
DreamArcher's Avatar
Joined Apr 2008
1,979 Posts
When I was learning to fly full-scale back in the 80's my instructor would always get after me for releasing full back yoke after landing. As soon as all the weight was on the LG I'd return the yoke to center and he'd say, "Keep full back during the roll-out because it's hard on the nose gear." I guess full scale nose gears take a beating too.
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Old Nov 09, 2011, 09:07 PM
Gas Only
Fokker DII's Avatar
USA So. Cal.
Joined Sep 2010
983 Posts
After learning how to land on the mains instead of nose gear first I no longer needed to carry a couple spare gears in the flight box. I used to have to staighten them out in a vice after every flying session.
The secret is "Learn how to land". Practice, practice,practice. Problem solved. :-)
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Old Nov 10, 2011, 04:00 AM
I bail out, anywhere, anytime
Taurus Flyer's Avatar
The Netherlands, OV, Almelo
Joined Nov 2010
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tolice,

Learn how to land is learn how to fly a circuit, Only then you have the references to start the final glide path on right altitude and distance in the wind conditions of that day.

My golden rules
Learn to fly the circuit a way you always can reach the field when the engine quits. Of course the first flights of the day and not when it's too late.
After that, try to prevent to fly on a location and altitude that you cannot reach the field when the engine quits.
Third practice to land the plane on any moment by idling the engine.
Fourth, practice to land the plane on any moment by idling the engine.
In the end, practice to land the plane on any moment by idling the engine.
Of course, start these procedures with the maiden flight and not after you did destroy and repair the first set of undercarriage.
Keep in mind, there are not much possibilities to reduce the speed when you start the final glide path on a too high position. When the speed is too high you cannot make a touchdown on the mains.

Another video to show a normal touch down on the mains:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=mK8TGW-fL44
This Taurus is 68 1/2 inch span and powered with an OS Max 35 engine.

So a full multi pattern plane with same span as your PT-60 trainer but half the power??

Maybe your biggest problem isn't the undercarriage but the power in idle position and weight of the plane. Result often is, you cannot reduce the speed to make a decent touch down on the mains because the plane is overpowered and too heavy!
Let me know what you think about that!
Cees
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Old Nov 10, 2011, 07:59 AM
Zor
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Ontario,Canada
Joined Feb 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fokker DII View Post
After learning how to land on the mains instead of nose gear first I no longer needed to carry a couple spare gears in the flight box. I used to have to staighten them out in a vice after every flying session.
The secret is "Learn how to land". Practice, practice,practice. Problem solved. :-)
I use spring wire for landing gears made of wire.
No need ever to straighten them.

Why do you think they roll a few turns of wire like we see on nose gear wire? They are not spring steel.

Zor
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Old Nov 10, 2011, 09:09 AM
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tolice's Avatar
Curitiba, PR, Brasil
Joined Aug 2010
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Thank you Taurusflyer for all the input here.
It will be of great importance.
This PT-60 has actually 15 flies and I am training the landing procedure. Is the hardest part.

Actually it weights 3.9kg (8.5 pounds)
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Old Nov 10, 2011, 11:20 AM
I bail out, anywhere, anytime
Taurus Flyer's Avatar
The Netherlands, OV, Almelo
Joined Nov 2010
2,585 Posts
tolice,

First Taurus 10 pounds with fuel, second about 6 pounds, yours 8,5 (maybe with fuel 9) pounds and that’s heavy IMO.
It is possible to compare some data but there are two important facts to count with.

First the Taurusses do have their CG high located in the fuselage. low wingers, your plane the CG low positioned and wings on top. That's makes it more difficult for you to maneuver in final glide.

Second important fact is, the wings of these Taurusses are thick (19 %) so I can reduce the speed without a risk of stalling but more important, there is also a lot of drag generated by these wings.

When the plane is light of weight and the wings thick the speed automatically is reduced by drag in the glide path. So I even can start a final glide in some high positions. Also I can fly these Taurusses with high angle of attack and in that case there is much more drag of tailcone etc

Your plane is heavy and drag is low so starting the final on a too high position can give you problems. The speed will increase while trying to lower the altitude as result of high wing load and low drag. So depending of wind speed it is important for you trying to find out the optimum position to start final glide with throttled engine. If the approach isn't alright, power and try again the complete circuit for learning the process. For me this is the only way to do and, if completed, you will be content with the results.

The pictures.

This is the nose leg of the heaviest Taurus and the pivot block is made of steel plate and bushing.

15 kgf or 147 Newton or 33 pounds was needed to press down the nose as visible on the picture for about 45 degrees without any negative result. That force nearly is 3.5 times the weight.

At this pressure of course the wheel isn’t rolling anymore which is visible on that moment in the video of post 4, on moment 2min 51sec , in that case the leg will bent more until the wheel gets his space to escape. The nose wheel is made of massive nylon, not the mains, these are of normal construction.

Of course normally this isn’t needed but it shows what sometimes is needed and possible.

Success Cees
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Old Nov 10, 2011, 04:44 PM
DreamArcher's Avatar
Joined Apr 2008
1,979 Posts
I wouldn't push too hard on the "learn how to fly/land" shpeal. My club field is like it was carpet bombed. It's so-called astrotuf and is covered in giant bumps and potholes. To top it off it's held down with giant bolts with a line of them running right down the center. A perfect landing can still beat up a plane.
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Old Nov 11, 2011, 04:54 AM
I bail out, anywhere, anytime
Taurus Flyer's Avatar
The Netherlands, OV, Almelo
Joined Nov 2010
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Don't shoot the messenger, this is a joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamArcher View Post
I wouldn't push too hard on the "learn how to fly/land" shpeal. My club field is like it was carpet bombed. It's so-called astrotuf and is covered in giant bumps and potholes. To top it off it's held down with giant bolts with a line of them running right down the center. A perfect landing can still beat up a plane.
Commercial influences sometimes makes it difficult the solve problems or transfer know-how.
Often we of Old School have to think very very elementary, for example in this case.

Is Dream Archer right?

As normally I do take a look in the personal attachements (pictures) and find this one (really!) and than its clear.

"Dream Archer, this forum is about aeromodeling, wake up!"

Compensation.

Because I also did read about the problems of your P47 tailwheel, a picture, of my Orion, bom crater safe. Maybe you can use the idea = transfer know-how.


Cees
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