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Old Jan 03, 2012, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Applehoney View Post
Senator - one small point which has caused confusion in the past; the KK plan incorrectly specifies the plan as 30". The actual span is 32" but the plan was never corrected in some 50 years of production. 8" tips, 16" centre panel.
Sorry, although the total length of the wing sections is 32", the wingspan is just under 30". Each wing tip is raised by 4", therefore the total span is 16 + 2*SQRT(64-16) = 29.856".
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Old Jan 03, 2012, 05:05 PM
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Yes - PROJECTED span.

'Projected' is rarely used in anything other than FAI classes. In virtually everything else, since freeflight plans were published, 'span' has been recognised as the flat plan measurement as drawn.

Hence, the Senator is customarily known and recognised as 32" span
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 02:49 AM
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Everyone uses span to imply how big a given aircraft is. Why not? It's certainly convenient. However, it is also wrong and no true indicator of size. or performance.

Take three full size aircraft. A Piper J-3, an AT-6 Texan, and P-51Mustang. The smallest span is the Piper at 35' +. The largest is the T-6 at 42'strong, and the Mustang is 37'. Only two will fit in a standard 42' hangar. Piper has lowest power to wt ratio and thus has slowest climb. The Mustang has the most power but second best climb. T-6 has best power to wt ratio and thus best climb. No doubt about which one is fastest or heaviest!

When I had a hangar for my Piper, it cost me $200.00 per month. If I had Mustang my rent would stay exactly the same. A T-6 would require a "twin hangar" at another $125.00 per mo.

At the gas pump it cost about 4.00 per hr for a Piper J-3. An AT-6 burns consdirably more, i'd estimate maybe $80 -$100 per hour. IIRC, a Mustang was over $200.00 per hour, back in the 1980's.

Not trying to start a flame war, just thought I'd comment on spans in general. please excuse if I took a long way to the well.

As for FF models, where do they measure a P-30? Flat plan or projected span?
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 03:42 AM
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So what you're saying is that looking at those spans everyone would imagine the T-6 was the biggest plane....and sure enough they'd be exactly right because that's the only one that needs the bigger hangar.

I have a feeling I may have missed something in there somewhere .

BTW for P30 maximum dimension is defined as "in assembled condition" which is therefore taken as projected wingspan i.e. what you measure from tip to tip as it's all put together and ready to go.

Steve
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 09:06 AM
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Ajax, Ontario, Canada
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>where do they measure a P-30? Flat plan or projected span?

The original spec was for an assembled model that could have a 30" square frame placed over it... so in this case projected span is the case though plans are commonly drawn to a maximum of 30" 'flat'
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 02:47 PM
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I must admit that I have never heard the term "projected span". Like packard pursuit, my main consideration about wingspan was whether I could get an aircraft into a hangar.

Nevetheless, I can live with some people using the term projected span if that is what they are used to and prefer. I only raised the issue since the designer of the Senator and Keil Kraft presumably used the same definition of span that I understand.
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Old Jan 04, 2012, 07:28 PM
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Was just trying to show that percieved size is relative and that span is no real indicator. I'm sure everyone will continue to use it.
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Old Jan 05, 2012, 11:58 PM
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Aeromodeller free flight plans

Hi,
We go the 1960’s and the March and May issues of Aeromodeller.

From the March issue comes COCCINELLE a remarkable semi-scale jet airliner by H.MALES.

It has two tail mounted engines and is said to fly like a dream. All the details are in the construction article and on the plan.

Next to something entirely conventional, and a much modelled subject, the CESSNA C-34.

This was designed by I.CAMERON who said his plan is the result of two years of research and is an accurate prototype of G-AEAI .

Looks like he got it right because it won many prizes while on the competition circuit in Northern England.

Of 34 inch wingspan it is for .75cc to 1cc motors.


To MAY 1960 and going indoors with the VI ET ARME one of Britain’s best indoor chuck glider designs.

The work of J.ELLISON who managed to get 45.5secs at the Indoor Nats.

He said that building and flying competition chuck gliders is not as simple as it appears and these plans are for the benefit of serious modellers. You get the all important trimming details as well.

Finally to another British record holder but this time for Rubber Waterplane Duration and a twin motored Flying boat .

This is a most intriguing design by RAY PARKER and was built to the old-rule Wakefield requirements and is said to be simple to build and offers hours of fun.

Cheers
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Old Jan 06, 2012, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by algy2 View Post
Hi,
We go the 1960’s and the March and May issues of Aeromodeller.

From the March issue comes COCCINELLE a remarkable semi-scale jet airliner by H.MALES.

It has two tail mounted engines and is said to fly like a dream. All the details are in the construction article and on the plan.

Next to something entirely conventional, and a much modelled subject, the CESSNA C-34.

This was designed by I.CAMERON who said his plan is the result of two years of research and is an accurate prototype of G-AEAI .

Looks like he got it right because it won many prizes while on the competition circuit in Northern England.

Of 34 inch wingspan it is for .75cc to 1cc motors.


To MAY 1960 and going indoors with the VI ET ARME one of Britain’s best indoor chuck glider designs.

The work of J.ELLISON who managed to get 45.5secs at the Indoor Nats.

He said that building and flying competition chuck gliders is not as simple as it appears and these plans are for the benefit of serious modellers. You get the all important trimming details as well.

Finally to another British record holder but this time for Rubber Waterplane Duration and a twin motored Flying boat .

This is a most intriguing design by RAY PARKER and was built to the old-rule Wakefield requirements and is said to be simple to build and offers hours of fun.

Cheers
Hi ALGY; Thanks for doing a great job of scanning these aeromodellers. I just love the covers and am collecting them all together. One day I will make a collage for the workshop wall.

I see from the May issue there was a plan of the Piper Apache - is there any chance you can provide me with a scan of that please (even though it is control line)?

Mark.
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Old Jan 06, 2012, 01:37 AM
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Happy New Year Algy - enjoying your posts immensely.
Many thanks.

Simon
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Old Jan 06, 2012, 04:31 AM
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Hi Mark,

I have scanned the scale control line PIPER APACHE article and plan and posted it on the control line thread for you. It would make a nice model.

Yes the AEROMODELLER covers are a thing of beauty. My preference is for the 1940 and 1950 issues where they were an actual cover painting but they are all very nostalgic. As a collage they would look great on the wall.

Simon glad you are enjoying the posts thanks for the feedback. Happy New Year.

Cheers

Algy
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Old Jan 07, 2012, 01:04 AM
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Aeromodeller free flight plans

Hi,
The 1950’s and the AUGUST 1955 AEROMODELLER.

On the cover is the second prototype of the Skyhawk fighter destined for the US Navy.

The first free flight plan in this issue comes from Mexico the TOTOTL by CALOS GONZALES DE COSIO.

This is a high thrust line International Class powered model of 331/2 inch wingspan that flies as though on rails.

The designer said TOTOTL is the result of the much experience gained through many prototypes.


Next was FIZZLE QUICK a high performance JETEX contest design, the work of well known IAN DOWSETT.

The design features extreme light weight and as a result, lightning acceleration.

Ian gives full building advice and trimming details.


Cheers

Algy
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Old Jan 07, 2012, 06:58 PM
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Like all other on this thread I look forward to Algy`s posts. His collection of Aeromodellers is far more extensive than mine especially since the 2nd hand dealers got in on the act on Ebay were they even try to sell reproductions of the magazine at inflated prices. This unfortunately makes the private seller think they are sitting on a fortune with the result that few sell.
Algy used to post in the vintage group this had the advantage that all the plans were posted but the disadvantage that anything after 1960 was vorboten
As I said my collection of Aeromodellers is not as extensive as his but those I do have I will post the C/L plans and the couple of FF plans he missed on the vintage thread. Here you can find the first 6 for the pre 1960. More to follow
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=7900

Post 1960 will be posted on the Hippocket site were my user name is aeromuddle
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Old Jan 07, 2012, 11:33 PM
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USA, WA, Ellensburg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by algy2 View Post
Hi,
We go the 1960s and the March and May issues of Aeromodeller.

To MAY 1960
Algy2, do you happen to have the Piper Apache plans from that May issue?

Is there a similar thread in the control line forum? I look for a lot of them on the Vintage Plans thread but the prior to 1960 requirement for that thread sure gets in the way.

Thank you.
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Old Jan 08, 2012, 02:29 AM
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Aeromodeller free flight plans

Hi,
This time one from the 1970s and two from the 1960s AEROMODELLERS.

First from August 1978 one of the classic P-30 designs by JOHN ODONNELL.

Its TEACHERS PET that was included as a free pull out plan in this issue.

John said that he produced far more then he originally expected in terms of performance and ease of handling in this model.

I can second that as it was the first P-30 model I ever built in the 80s and I had it trimmed out in only three flights. Still have it and though it looks a bit tatty now it still flys well.

You get a very comprehensive build article with the plan and detailed trimming advise.

Next to September 1960 and an ideal free flight power design for the novice
.
This is CHUNKY designed by AEROMODELLER staff with a wingspan of 36 and for .5 to .8cc motors.

It looks easy to build and fun to fly.

Finally to Denmark and a leading A/2 design by BORGE HANSON the PJERRI.

This features tough construction well able to take on rough weather.

Its an attractive looking model that first took to the air in 1956 and has proved that it can fly well with a still air performance matching many more sophisticated creations.


Cheers

Algy
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