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View Poll Results: How much foam do you consume?
1 bundle or less per year 83 33.88%
1-2 bundles per year 98 40.00%
2-6 bundles per year 42 17.14%
1-2 bundles per month 7 2.86%
2-4 bundles per month 4 1.63%
4 or more bundles per month 11 4.49%
Voters: 245. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Dec 03, 2011, 12:41 AM
Registered User
Columbus Ohio.
Joined Aug 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model Aero View Post
We use a few thousand sheets of 6 mm Depron a year. For us to be interested the material would need to be as good or better than Depron and delivered in sheets in perfect condition, flat with no perforations or skin. I would forget about colors other than white. It will be a challenge to get any company in the US interested in producing it at all, let alone multiple colors.

There are a few companies who could produce the material in the US if the demand were there, but I really question if the demand is even close to being enough. Nevertheless, I'm happy to see someone investigating this and it would be great to have a competitive product to Depron. I'll be following the thread!

Scott

www.ModelAero.com
I'm not sure I'd agree with you on the demand side.

I spent the weekend checking out art and craft stores to see what they offered in the way of foam board.
The big dog in the art's and craft area are the Elmer's foam board products.
But the vulnerability Elmer's has is in price.
Also, they offer such a myriad of sizes and colors, it probably makes their entire product line that much more expensive to maintain.

Adam's could come into the same market based on an entirely different mindset. Adams wouldn't be aiming at the occational user who needs a board to mount pictures on for a school project. Those are the people who want a board already cut to a specific size...and if $10.00 for a single 30x40 sheet is too expensive, they go to the next size lower.

But, there's an entirely different class of buyer. Those are the people who are going to cut the foam up in some way to make things. And the more reasonably priced the raw materials are, the more they will build. And the more they build the more foam they will buy. These are the real repeat customers. They will not buy the product in single sheets. They'll want to save money by buying in bulk...$50 to $60 dollars for full cases.

So Adam's strategy should be...keep it simple. People are going to be cutting this foam up for projects, so stick with a single size and thickness to avoid the hastles trying to maintain a broad selection.

It's like a guy who's hobby is building fine furniture. But he finally has to give it up because he can't find a "ready supply" of "decent hardwood" at "reasonable prices". The same holds true for foam. I wonder how many more people would be building foam airplanes if a decent product was available at reasonable prices.

If you provide a ready source of reasonablly priced, excellent materials, people will find ways to use them. And let's not forget...word of mouth is HUGE!!!

If you have a Depron alternative in 24in x48in x6mm sheets... available at 1/3 the cost...in cases of 16 sheets...priced somewhere in the $50 to $60 dollar range (delivered price if orderded online)...I'd think you'd have a huge increase in foamy airplane participation (not to mention knocking Depron totally out of the North American market).

I also think you'd sell a lot in the office supply, and arts and crafts areas as well.
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Old Dec 03, 2011, 10:12 AM
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rcav8r2's Avatar
United States, PA, Beaver
Joined Sep 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJKIRK View Post
It's like a guy who's hobby is building fine furniture. But he finally has to give it up because he can't find a "ready supply" of "decent hardwood" at "reasonable prices". The same holds true for foam. I wonder how many more people would be building foam airplanes if a decent product was available at reasonable prices.
That's me... Not the fine furniture part, but not building with foam anymore as I can't get decent foam at a reasonable cost. Heck I can't even get junk foam at a reasonable cost.
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Old Dec 03, 2011, 02:52 PM
Foam Av8r
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In Teh Garage (Rossville, GA. USA)
Joined Sep 2008
3,351 Posts
Ya I have even noticed the decline in quality with the Adams foam board as far as waviness in the sheets.
it seems I am culling through the box more than I used to.
I know they can make nice flat foam because I used to buy it.
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Old Dec 03, 2011, 05:38 PM
Ego varius quis.
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Wisconsin
Joined Nov 2003
1,930 Posts
I might bring up here that not all foam is equal.

Different foams made of polystyrene can have very different structural characteristics, some of which don't change proportionally with density. Dow Hiload 100 has 250% the compressive strength of Dow Hiload 40, but is only about 50% heavier.

Depron was, AFAIK, originally intended as insulation. Maybe there's room for improvement?
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Old Dec 03, 2011, 05:48 PM
AKA Don
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United States, MI, Houghton Lake
Joined Dec 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueTitan View Post
Ya I have even noticed the decline in quality with the Adams foam board as far as waviness in the sheets.
it seems I am culling through the box more than I used to.
I know they can make nice flat foam because I used to buy it.
Adams claims the waves are intentional because they are part of the product design and specification for the building trade. I have no idea what the benefit or purpose is but I know it's undersired by modelers.
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Old Dec 03, 2011, 08:09 PM
SG Talon... Super Genius.
Lenox, Michigan
Joined Nov 2005
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The wave is intended as an air gap Don.
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Old Dec 04, 2011, 12:43 PM
FFF CRASH ANALYST
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United States, TX, Venus
Joined Aug 2011
103 Posts
sgt is correct, it is an air gap, because air gap = higher R rating. also the perfs in the plastic skin is to keep moisture and draft out while leaving a "semi permiable" barrier to let moisture and some air out. I have seen FFF used behind vinyl siding
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Old Dec 04, 2011, 01:08 PM
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United States, IL, Joliet
Joined Jun 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tstubbs View Post
sgt is correct, it is an air gap, because air gap = higher R rating. also the perfs in the plastic skin is to keep moisture and draft out while leaving a "semi permiable" barrier to let moisture and some air out. I have seen FFF used behind vinyl siding
I am a builder here in IL and i bought a bunch of windows off of richards suppy company in joliet .They where running a sales deal if you bought so many windows they would give me a letus entertain you 5o buck gift . I live to far from any letus resterant so i asked my sales guy if they carried blue ff and he said yes. I took my free bunk of 1/4 inch dow blue fanfold worth 43 dollars and left with a big smile on my face. Richards is a siding and roofing supply company and they said they have plenty of it. joe
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Old Dec 06, 2011, 06:20 AM
Flying Models for 51 Years!
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Georgia, United States
Joined Oct 2002
816 Posts
QUOTE by Ken I have just started using a Dow product called High Performance Underlayment (lay flat fan fold). It is the same thickness as Protection Board III, but is skinned on both sides, smooth, and very flat. Along with no printing directly on the foam. It is also cut instead of folded. This is very high quality material, and is considered a premium product at Allied Building Supply. A single 200 sq. ft. bundle is $50, with a price break for quantity down to about $46 a bundle. The only improvement that I would make to this product is that it would come in white. This material is manufactured by Adams as well.

The quote above is from the very first Post that started this Thread. As Ken stated, The only improvement that I would make to the High Performance Underlayment is that it would come in white. If Adams could do this for us the only change to this existing product would be a color change! That would be a easy change for Adams to make and the cost to Adams would be little to nothing. Therefore giving us a Foam Board that will meet our needs while saving Adams thousands of Dollars in development cost. I personally think that this would be the Foam that meets our needs. Comments Welcome.
Bobby
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Old Dec 06, 2011, 07:30 AM
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United States, PA, Meadville
Joined Feb 2011
190 Posts
foam

I have searched and searched for FFF or underlay around here and come up empty. I use DollarTree foam and find it to be marginal indeed but it is cheap. I would jump on the chance to get something better. 6mm would be the ticket.
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Old Dec 06, 2011, 09:26 AM
Slipping the Surly Bonds
dz1sfb's Avatar
Attica, MI
Joined Dec 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixter View Post
QUOTE by Ken I have just started using a Dow product called High Performance Underlayment (lay flat fan fold). It is the same thickness as Protection Board III, but is skinned on both sides, smooth, and very flat. Along with no printing directly on the foam. It is also cut instead of folded. This is very high quality material, and is considered a premium product at Allied Building Supply. A single 200 sq. ft. bundle is $50, with a price break for quantity down to about $46 a bundle. The only improvement that I would make to this product is that it would come in white. This material is manufactured by Adams as well.

The quote above is from the very first Post that started this Thread. As Ken stated, The only improvement that I would make to the High Performance Underlayment is that it would come in white. If Adams could do this for us the only change to this existing product would be a color change! That would be a easy change for Adams to make and the cost to Adams would be little to nothing. Therefore giving us a Foam Board that will meet our needs while saving Adams thousands of Dollars in development cost. I personally think that this would be the Foam that meets our needs. Comments Welcome.
Bobby

Bobby,

I would be happy with such a product, maybe a little flatter still would be good. It is pretty flat, but still has some waves, but much flatter than PBIII.

I personally prefer the 5mm-ish thickness, but I am game for 6mm if Adams sees fit to do so.

Ken
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Old Dec 10, 2011, 12:27 AM
Wonderfully Wicked
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Willoughby, Ohio
Joined Jan 2002
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I have been trying to find the Dow product locally in Ohio now for some time and I ended up calling Dow yesterday and they told me there is no supplier in Ohio who stocks the fan fold any longer so the only way to get it is to have a pallet worth ordered (50 fan fold units). She told me the 1/4" bluecor fan fold and the 1/4" underlayment are both still being made however new building codes have essentially obsoleted them as the insulation value is no longer sufficient. She said most building codes require at least 1/2" thick these days and people buy 1/2" x 4' x 8' Bluecor sheets instead. So she confirmed essentially what I found by calling various building supply stores, which is I can get it in 1-2 weeks if I am willing to buy a few thousand dollars worth of the stuff

Don
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Old Dec 10, 2011, 09:00 AM
CNC Cutter
birdofplay's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Dec 2005
8,705 Posts
Thanks to Govt intervention I read inbetween your lines that DOW will most likely
be dropping the 1/4" thick FFF products.

AKA get it while you can OR

Wait for and Pray for Ken and Don to to get an alternate mfgr to step up to the plate.

BTW guys ,,, How Goes the Battle ?

Bob
Northwest Cutout Service
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Old Dec 10, 2011, 09:36 AM
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United States, IL, Joliet
Joined Jun 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I have been trying to find the Dow product locally in Ohio now for some time and I ended up calling Dow yesterday and they told me there is no supplier in Ohio who stocks the fan fold any longer so the only way to get it is to have a pallet worth ordered (50 fan fold units). She told me the 1/4" bluecor fan fold and the 1/4" underlayment are both still being made however new building codes have essentially obsoleted them as the insulation value is no longer sufficient. She said most building codes require at least 1/2" thick these days and people buy 1/2" x 4' x 8' Bluecor sheets instead. So she confirmed essentially what I found by calling various building supply stores, which is I can get it in 1-2 weeks if I am willing to buy a few thousand dollars worth of the stuff

Don
Don i wonder how much it would cost to ship from IL . I can ask my siding supplyer if they would ship a bunk to you. joe
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Old Dec 10, 2011, 06:02 PM
Slipping the Surly Bonds
dz1sfb's Avatar
Attica, MI
Joined Dec 2006
10,678 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I have been trying to find the Dow product locally in Ohio now for some time and I ended up calling Dow yesterday and they told me there is no supplier in Ohio who stocks the fan fold any longer so the only way to get it is to have a pallet worth ordered (50 fan fold units). She told me the 1/4" bluecor fan fold and the 1/4" underlayment are both still being made however new building codes have essentially obsoleted them as the insulation value is no longer sufficient. She said most building codes require at least 1/2" thick these days and people buy 1/2" x 4' x 8' Bluecor sheets instead. So she confirmed essentially what I found by calling various building supply stores, which is I can get it in 1-2 weeks if I am willing to buy a few thousand dollars worth of the stuff

Don
Don would you be willing to purchase a single bundle if I bought and shipped it to you. It would be $50 plus shipping Not sure what that would be at this point, but my guess is around $20 for UPS ground and boxing supplies. I have to make another purchase of foam this week for kit production.

Ken
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