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Old Jan 18, 2013, 09:10 PM
Live to learn. . .
Rafa's CB100's Avatar
Austin, TX
Joined Dec 2009
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Headspeed!!

Hi Y'all,

With all this talk of governed head speeds, I decided to try something before I converted to 2S. I filmed a video (audio, really) of my stock V120 at 100% throttle, just lifting off and hovering next to my iPhone. I did this with a fresh pack, then the same thing after my typical 4:30 flight. We all know that you can hear head speed drop as the battery discharges, I just wanted to be able to hear one right next to the other. Happy Friday,

Rafa
V120 spoolup with fresh battery (0 min 12 sec)

V120 spoolup with a discharged battery (0 min 18 sec)
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 09:16 PM
Controls Engineer
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United States, NY, Amsterdam
Joined Dec 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iflyrvs1 View Post
. So some people flip their tail over and give it improper physics to the tail rotation and also, if using the stock tail fin. The tail rotor draft will be partially blocked by it too, being on the opposite side now. I think that is why EJ uses a very thin CF rod for his tail. I mean, no one else puts the push rod on top, that i know of. It makes no sense. Unless it's there on purpose. But why would they leave it there on purpose? I just don't understand...

This maybe so that it is on the wrong side but i can tell you from extensive testing there is no difference in the flight characteristics and since inverting the rod i have never had to go chase another rudder rod. On my rudder rods that got hit it also ruined the tail rockers. I could probably switch back now as i dont crash much anymore but i dont see any need to switch them back. I took all the slipper clutches off as i couldnt do a stall turn with a 1 1/2 piro at the end without the tail beaking loose. My slipper cutches worked good as long as i wasnt doing agressive maneuvers. Now my tail is rock solid on all three of my flying V120s.

My Trex 450 will be here Mon!!!!!!!!!
It also doesn't mater if the air is being pulled from around the tail boom or being pushed back across it in my mind. I LIKE IT

How about that pinion cement? Need to give it the full 24 hrs to dry?
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 10:42 PM
Hong Kong
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What is particularly intriguing to is the sudden appearance in large numbers of clones of Walkera products, especially its quads. I wonder whether they are genuine unauthorized clones or that they have permission from Walkera.

For example, the WL Toys V939 was announced within 4 weeks of the release of the Walkera QR Ladybird and is a near 100% clone

1. Its shell is 100% identical to that of Walkera's
2. It even uses the same name "QR Ladybird" in its packaging

The latter appears to be a clear cut case of trademark infringement. Not to mention it would probably have broken copyright and patent laws.

It has been reported that the V120D02S is the only heli that is still completely manufactured in house by Walkera. That is why the others are easy to clone because their plastic molds are on the open market. But somehow, I do not find this a very good explanation.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by zadaw View Post
What is particularly intriguing to is the sudden appearance in large numbers of clones of Walkera products, especially its quads. I wonder whether they are genuine unauthorized clones or that they have permission from Walkera.

For example, the WL Toys V939 was announced within 4 weeks of the release of the Walkera QR Ladybird and is a near 100% clone

1. Its shell is 100% identical to that of Walkera's
2. It even uses the same name "QR Ladybird" in its packaging

The latter appears to be a clear cut case of trademark infringement. Not to mention it would probably have broken copyright and patent laws.

It has been reported that the V120D02S is the only heli that is still completely manufactured in house by Walkera. That is why the others are easy to clone because their plastic molds are on the open market. But somehow, I do not find this a very good explanation.
I thought the 929/939 were called the "Beetle" it's even printed on the shell?


Regardless. Your right. It was released at the same time basically. It's probably some kind of back door deal. Having cheaper competition that you also profit from has been a hallmark of corporate business for as long as i can remember. If someone is going to "clone" your product. You might as well make some money and do it yourself. Why not, right?

I thought by now someone would have watched the video i posted this morning and noticed the 8 full pirouettes while staying mostly stationary on the V120. Starting around 2:09. I thought that was very impressive for this heli that i have never managed to get more than one or two piros on before a uneven cyclic wobble would occur or otherwise become unstable and have to stop the piro. Maybe everyone else has been able to do piros like this? I just slap the rudder to the side and away it goes. I only stopped in this video because i was slowly drifting towards the shed wall. Almost as good as my bigger birds now.



Crashing in the grass at one of the fields i fly at sure does end up being cheaper than the concrete at my house. Thats for sure.
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Old Jan 18, 2013, 11:57 PM
Hong Kong
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The V939 is still the QR Ladybird. It is the V929 that started off as a ladybird but ended up as a beetle. That is a clone of the Blade MQX anyway.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by zadaw View Post
The V939 is still the QR Ladybird. It is the V929 that started off as a ladybird but ended up as a beetle. That is a clone of the Blade MQX anyway.
WOW, i never have seen the box. Thats pretty funny. It is copyright, trademark, probably even some kind of patent pending. Who knows. There is almost no way that it's not directly permitted by Walkera, otherwise. Well you said that most of Walkera's products are not made in house. Perhaps it's WL that is the manufacturer here. After all, the v911 "Trex 100 clone" ended up being better than the Trex 100, didn't it? Having Walkera, and Walkera's distribution to everywhere would be a good trade route. Then Walkera can charge a little more and make their cut. That wouldn't be so unheard of either, i suppose.

I hear the 911 TX works with the QRs too. So i'm not sure how that all works out. I wonder if the TX works with the WK models too or something funny like that.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 12:24 AM
Hong Kong
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
WOW, i never have seen the box. Thats pretty funny. It is copyright, trademark, probably even some kind of patent pending. Who knows. There is almost no way that it's not directly permitted by Walkera, otherwise. Well you said that most of Walkera's products are not made in house. Perhaps it's WL that is the manufacturer here. After all, the v911 "Trex 100 clone" ended up being better than the Trex 100, didn't it? Having Walkera, and Walkera's distribution to everywhere would be a good trade route. Then Walkera can charge a little more and make their cut. That wouldn't be so unheard of either, i suppose.

I hear the 911 TX works with the QRs too. So i'm not sure how that all works out. I wonder if the TX works with the WK models too or something funny like that.
Although Chinese companies are extremely fast in bringing out clones. I just can't see how any company could announce a clone within 4 weeks of the original being released. This is especially with quad controller which are very new as far as micro quads are concerned.

The V929 is also interesting because it is a near 100% clone of the mQX. It could be that Walkera is providing assistance to WL Toys so it can get to Blade. However, it does not want to be accused of cloning itself. There is also a mysterious Spektrum compatible QR Ladybird that comes in Walkera packaging. It is not known whether the control board is made by Walkera or someone else.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by zadaw View Post
Although Chinese companies are extremely fast in bringing out clones. I just can't see how any company could announce a clone within 4 weeks of the original being released. This is especially with quad controller which are very new as far as micro quads are concerned.

The V929 is also interesting because it is a near 100% clone of the mQX. It could be that Walkera is providing assistance to WL Toys so it can get to Blade. However, it does not want to be accused of cloning itself. There is also a mysterious Spektrum compatible QR Ladybird that comes in Walkera packaging. It is not known whether the control board is made by Walkera or someone else.
It looks like we might be heading into interesting times in the RTF micro heli world.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 12:34 AM
WIFE HAND LAUNCHED MY PLANES!
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Joined Jun 2009
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Gotta love the WL Toys.
My V929 is not a lady bird neither a beetle .
-Spyro
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 07:48 AM
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United States, VA, Arlington
Joined Jan 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
... This is like asking a software developer to create and keep up with a "Modified" version of the software. But then the original developer NEVER stops releasing core code patches, requiring full re-wright of the "mod" software. Eventually the "Mod" developer will get tired of keeping up with patches and quit! Which is what i eventually expect Walkera to do to Deviation. I'm sure they are scratching their heads on that one and kicking themself in the rear for allowing it to be possible.... I wouldn't doubt if a new TX system will be implemented eventually, pushing Devo to the back of the bus with the 2801.
I think that would be a fair prediction, but my understanding is the Deviation is not a modification of the stock Walkera firmware, it is a replacement. So there is no need to keep track of Walkera releases. (Since Walkera has not released a firmware for the 7E, there is no way to return that model to stock, so there have been some comments suggesting waiting until that happens, but the firmware is not dependent on the Walkera release)

Given that there were several reports that Walkera explicitly encouraged the alternative firmware, I am not sure that they would be kicking themselves.

I think they might be better off if folks used their transmitter to fly Blade equipment. Walkera would have a better chance of competing than if those same folks only had a Spektrum transmitter. It's like the story of the marketing team testing the new design for the 1994 Dodge:
Quote:
when they briefed the management that it was fairly love or hate ~12% loved it and wanted buy one today, ~88% hated it. They thought they were delivering bad news. Unexpectedly, the management cheered ... their previous market-share was ~7% so this effectively doubled sales!
v/r,
C-F
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:13 AM
Deviant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CANNONFODDER0 View Post
Given that there were several reports that Walkera explicitly encouraged the alternative firmware, I am not sure that they would be kicking themselves.
I don't know if Walkera encouraged or not, but Deviation is WIN-WIN for everybody:

1. Walkera sells more RTF packages
2. Walkera sells more stand alone transmitters.
3. Blade sell helis to people who wouldn't buy a JR or Spektrum TX.
4. People buy a good (devo 7e) or decent (devo6) or very nice(devo10, devo8) TX compatible with multiple brands and protocols.
5. Other manufacturers sell more products (like Nine Eagles (j6pro) or Hubsan, both compatible with Deviation - with a easy hardware modification).


Really, what's not to like?

Unfortunately most manufacturers are arrogant enough to refuse to work towards a common, open, joint-developed protocol.

It's a shame, because it would mean less investment in a line of transmitters (which I'm sure do not bring a significant revenue stream, they are support products) and more sales on the model side.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 08:27 AM
Hong Kong
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What I heard from my vendor was that Walkera does not mind that the deviation had become available, and they would not mind either if their Devo protocol is hacked into the transmitter of another brand. They also went as far as to claim some credit for leaving the system relatively open to being hacked.

However, this is disputed by PhracturedBlue who said that there was a fair amount of encryption with the Devo system. The story was that PB had always wanted to implement a universal transmitter system. He was looking for possible candidates when the Devo system came along and rcH4x0r provided a hacking tool. The rest is history.

It is clear that the Deviation firmware is driving the sales of Devo transmitters. However, you must remember that transmitters tend to be one-off purchases as you don't need to buy replacement parts like helicopters. They would surely be concerned of leakage of customers to Blade as the result. This is especially given that there is now a big divergence between Walkera and Blade whereby Walkera go for beginners and Blade for experts. Therefore Blade helis provide a viable upgrade path along the entire range.

Anyway, PB has become a legend in China where he is referred to as a "master among mortals". Walkera would have to think long and hard before they decide to change to a system that is not compatible with deviation.
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:13 AM
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YEAH, now if walkera can make TX sticks that don't feel like wet noodles. It would be nice if they tightened up their QC too. Here is a list of links to one persons account of a brand new Devo 10 shorting out randomly and failing on him. He managed to get the distributor (helipal) to replace it for him, you know, after a few weeks it took to mail to HK and back, or whatever. Then when he got the new one, one of the TX switches was broken off.. That switch was probably the distributors fault, or shipping. They did mail him a replacement switch and expected him to repair it himself. Which he did.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=3422

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=3425

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/newre...ply&p=23162556

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=3441

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=3449

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/newre...ply&p=23282244


So far it's the only TX i've heard about failing like this. BUT that means nothing because everyone told me that the 2702V was so good and stable and nice to fly and everything. Not one person mentioned how they randomly lock out and crash your helicopter. Not even after it started happening, i hit the net researching. I couldn't "search" one account of a 2702V "locking out" or failing. But after poking around and asking. A few people came forward with the same experience. One of which was Dkfuji.

While i agree Deviation is excellent and shown to be pretty viable. Walkera is probably seeing increased sales because of it. But, I also don't think it's worth risking my $1000 helicopters with either. Plus i just fly better and have MUCH better collective control on my DX8 because the tension actually exists on the sticks. It's not like my 2801 where a piece of metal presses against a crescent shaped "half wheel" to provide tension. It feels like old computer joy sticks which are spring loaded in all directions (collective stick) so that the stick always returns to center. You can even see in my videos where i used the 2801 to fly. The heli does a lot of "bobbing" because the collective stick doesn't like to sit still. Some people say that Devo sticks are better. But you know what.... They didn't have Devo TXs at my LHS where i could go pick one up, bind it to a heli and actually try the thing out before i bought it. They even used the oppertunity to try and sell me the 130X i test flew it with. (which did have a tail vibe on the ground btw, in the air it went away) Otherwise, i probably would have bought a devo 10 and been done with it. Having the guy in the links above come out with this report of "TX failure" on a Devo 10, just a day or two after having bought a DX8, sure made me feel relief.

On another note, Kdean and others in the V Clone thread or Walkera and beyond have been using devo with no issues on 500 and 600 class helicopters, mostly using devo RX too. So again, it's all random. For me, i don't like gambling. I'm not sure i know of anyone, right off hand, that flies using a Devo with a spektrum rx on a 500+ class heli. I'm sure they exist though.


Can someone clarify something. Does the Deviation FW only support DSM2?
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:32 AM
Hong Kong
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Honestly, the DX8 has got much more reported problems with lockouts than all the Walkera Devo transmitters put together. Although they have got it sort out eventually. When you try new technology, there will always be problems.

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread....04#post3692504

http://www.helifreak.com/showpost.ph...4&postcount=14
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Old Jan 19, 2013, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by zadaw View Post
Honestly, the DX8 has got much more reported problems with lockouts than all the Walkera Devo transmitters put together. Although they have got it sort out eventually. When you try new technology, there will always be problems.

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread....04#post3692504

http://www.helifreak.com/showpost.ph...4&postcount=14
Most DX8 lockouts occur when using DSM2. I have even had MY DX8 lockout when letting someone else fly a Eflite Beast plane. I'm willing to bet money that it wasn't on DSMX. Any issues with DSMX were knocked out over a year ago. I damn sure see more people wearing DX8 neck straps than Walkera ones.
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