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Old Jun 02, 2012, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by thloh85 View Post
I've checked vibration as well. Typically, I've went through everything I have done with my Trex250. I think the last thing is the rubberband on the receiver, but I highly doubt so, I've checked that the double sided tape holds the receiver really tightly.

Also, Viking, if you have the time, you could check my experiment at the previous page, the gyro doesn't seem to pick up tiny rotation. Maybe you could do the same experiment to see if its the same on your v120. Jon confirmed that, so I guess that's how the gyro is. Typically, the drift is minor but annoying. Its not like it drift very much, but its getting about 10 degrees every 10 seconds. The 250 I flew with a crappy tail gyro holds the tail way better than this RX.

With all that said, the 3 axis gyro works fine for the head (evel and aile), holds the direction really nicely. Sadly, the tail gyro isn't as solid.



Thanks for your time.
I would still give the rubber bands tightly wraped around the RX a shot since nothing else works. It's not a function of holding the RX tighter, it's a funtion of adding mass to the RX which may change the dynamics of what the gyro is sensing, giving you a possible change in what your seeing in your hover. Not saying it will cure your issue but I stumbled on it working out issues on my 120.

Viking
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Old Jun 02, 2012, 09:02 PM
V120D02S, GCP
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Could be txer actually.
Tail drift FIX: Genius and Mini CP 1 (6 min 36 sec)
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Old Jun 02, 2012, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by LarsDennert View Post
i got to try this tomorrow for both my genius and mini cp, the both have the same issue.
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Old Jun 02, 2012, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by dbennettya View Post
Interesting as stated before I find the tail on the V120D02S to be very good and the blades track heli rotation very well. See video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIHmspE6uHw

Sorry first link didn't work for me.

Good Luck, Don
Hi Don,
I think you're rotating it too fast, my RX picks up big movements like that too. Could you try rotating the tail slowly, about 10 degrees / sec.
Thanks
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Old Jun 02, 2012, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by thloh85 View Post
I've checked vibration as well. Typically, I've went through everything I have done with my Trex250. I think the last thing is the rubberband on the receiver, but I highly doubt so, I've checked that the double sided tape holds the receiver really tightly.

Also, Viking, if you have the time, you could check my experiment at the previous page, the gyro doesn't seem to pick up tiny rotation. Maybe you could do the same experiment to see if its the same on your v120. Jon confirmed that, so I guess that's how the gyro is. Typically, the drift is minor but annoying. Its not like it drift very much, but its getting about 10 degrees every 10 seconds. The 250 I flew with a crappy tail gyro holds the tail way better than this RX.

With all that said, the 3 axis gyro works fine for the head (evel and aile), holds the direction really nicely. Sadly, the tail gyro isn't as solid.

Thanks for your time.
yeah, just like your video showed if i am rough with it my tail the servo counteracts the movement, if i am very slow and gentle the servo does not move.
the things is though i have no tail drift whatsoever at the moment on both my v120d02 nor my v120d05 (with d02s rx).

its very possible that the rx gyro is not the source of your rudder drift. these gyros do not work the same when handled by hand and i know that for a fact (from personal experience) it could be a result of the tail switch you did (cw main rotors when it should be ccw? flipped tail grips, etc) or simply lack of a little rudder trim. anywhichway though, i hope you find a cure for that tail drift. my mini cp and genius do it and it bugs the hell out of me, so i hear you when you say it is annoying.
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Old Jun 02, 2012, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon.M.Barter View Post
yeah, just like your video showed if i am rough with it my tail the servo counteracts the movement, if i am very slow and gentle the servo does not move.
the things is though i have no tail drift whatsoever at the moment on both my v120d02 nor my v120d05 (with d02s rx).

its very possible that the rx gyro is not the source of your rudder drift. these gyros do not work the same when handled by hand and i know that for a fact (from personal experience) it could be a result of the tail switch you did (cw main rotors when it should be ccw? flipped tail grips, etc) or simply lack of a little rudder trim. anywhichway though, i hope you find a cure for that tail drift. my mini cp and genius do it and it bugs the hell out of me, so i hear you when you say it is annoying.
That's my last resort... Reverting the tail now to see if I still get the tail drift. Anyway, the gyro is not reacting properly IMHO, I have DS420 and RX2702V, they all react to the tiniest rotation.
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Old Jun 03, 2012, 02:06 AM
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Originally Posted by thloh85 View Post
Typically, the drift is minor but annoying. Its not like it drift very much, but its getting about 10 degrees every 10 seconds..
I think most people will have great difficulty in noticing such a small drift. I don't recall anybody else complaining of this problem in this thread. A lot of things can happen in 10 seconds of FFF heli flight and there are a lot of other things to concentrate. I did notice that there may be a slight right drift when flying inverted but honestly, I am not sure whether it is because I overshot when coming out of the corner, or I applied a bit of R rudder subconsciously. But still, I can now fly very precise fast inverted circuits so I am not worried there is any drift or not. In any case, it holds the tail much better than 100 class CPs.

I and many other have had many problems with the tail of the Trex 250 that is not gyro related. The mechanics of the V120D02S is much simpler in comparison. A few weeks ago, the tail of my Trex 250 suddenly went mysteriously in mid flight resulting in a crash that took me over 8 hours to fix. I would also wait until there are further user feed backs on the 130X. For a start, parts cost twice as much and there is also a question on whether linear servos scale up that well on a larger aircraft.
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Old Jun 03, 2012, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by zadaw View Post
I think most people will have great difficulty in noticing such a small drift. I don't recall anybody else complaining of this problem in this thread. A lot of things can happen in 10 seconds of FFF heli flight and there are a lot of other things to concentrate. I did notice that there may be a slight right drift when flying inverted but honestly, I am not sure whether it is because I overshot when coming out of the corner, or I applied a bit of R rudder subconsciously. But still, I can now fly very precise fast inverted circuits so I am not worried there is any drift or not. In any case, it holds the tail much better than 100 class CPs.

I and many other have had many problems with the tail of the Trex 250 that is not gyro related. The mechanics of the V120D02S is much simpler in comparison. A few weeks ago, the tail of my Trex 250 suddenly went mysteriously in mid flight resulting in a crash that took me over 8 hours to fix. I would also wait until there are further user feed backs on the 130X. For a start, parts cost twice as much and there is also a question on whether linear servos scale up that well on a larger aircraft.
Hi zadaw,
I understand what you're saying. But really, I've never had drift on my 250, although the FB 250 causes some odd elev/aile at times, but I believe that's caused by my mechanical setup. On my 250 (a long time ago), the tail held extremely solid in hover, going out of banked turn I usually don't need to worry about getting the tail back into place caused by drifting, especially when I need to stop the heli and get it back to hover.
I agree with you, crashing the 250 will usually kill something, while the 4 crashes I had with the 120 resulted in nothing but a broken skid and canopy.
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Old Jun 03, 2012, 11:28 AM
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I finally got Phoenix and have been practicing for my eventual start in 3D with the D02S and a Mini CP that should be arriving Monday. I've been using the Blade MCPx model with auto-stabilization turned off (passive flybarless) and the motor rating dialed up a notch per an earlier posting. I'm having little trouble with forward/backward flips and rolls in the simulator, which to me is a bad sign when I start doing them for real. Is the MCPx model fairly representative of what to expect with the D02S and Mini? Flips/rolls seem incredibly straightforward with an MCPx in Phoenix.

I'm using the Devo 7.

Walkera indicates in the D02S manual to use 100-50-100 for throttle in idle-up. I've seen lots of folks using 100% throttle across the board. Why would someone want 50% throttle at mid-stick at zero pitch? I'd think that there'd be a higher chance of motor bog as the stick is moved? Isn't it better to have flat 100%? In my sport flying, I use 0-95-100 when the wind is nasty.

I'm using Walkera's recommended pitch curve of -50%, 0%, 50%. Is this suitable?

I've left the pot settings stock (elev/aile gain and extent pots between 10:30 - 11). I've seen postings indicating that these should be good for flips/rolls. My D02S doesn't have any nasty wobble/shaking.

Lastly - here's a weird one. In idle-up at full negative throttle stick (with 100% set across the board), I see the throttle level in the LCD display actually start falling at the fourth negative index marker (85-90% negative travel). At full negative stick, it actually shows 87% throttle. 100% is shown everywhere else. I've made sure that the throttle curve is 100-100-100-100-100. Any ideas?
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Old Jun 03, 2012, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by OrbitalGolem View Post
I finally got Phoenix and have been practicing for my eventual start in 3D with the D02S and a Mini CP that should be arriving Monday. I've been using the Blade MCPx model with auto-stabilization turned off (passive flybarless) and the motor rating dialed up a notch per an earlier posting. I'm having little trouble with forward/backward flips and rolls in the simulator, which to me is a bad sign when I start doing them for real. Is the MCPx model fairly representative of what to expect with the D02S and Mini? Flips/rolls seem incredibly straightforward with an MCPx in Phoenix.

I'm using the Devo 7.

Walkera indicates in the D02S manual to use 100-50-100 for throttle in idle-up. I've seen lots of folks using 100% throttle across the board. Why would someone want 50% throttle at mid-stick at zero pitch? I'd think that there'd be a higher chance of motor bog as the stick is moved? Isn't it better to have flat 100%? In my sport flying, I use 0-95-100 when the wind is nasty.

I'm using Walkera's recommended pitch curve of -50%, 0%, 50%. Is this suitable?

I've left the pot settings stock (elev/aile gain and extent pots between 10:30 - 11). I've seen postings indicating that these should be good for flips/rolls. My D02S doesn't have any nasty wobble/shaking.

Lastly - here's a weird one. In idle-up at full negative throttle stick (with 100% set across the board), I see the throttle level in the LCD display actually start falling at the fourth negative index marker (85-90% negative travel). At full negative stick, it actually shows 87% throttle. 100% is shown everywhere else. I've made sure that the throttle curve is 100-100-100-100-100. Any ideas?
On the simulator i prefer the align 250 3g flybarless. Easier to see, looks and flies similar to the v120 series and very very 3d capable.

As for the settings i am still a newb on the subject.
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Old Jun 03, 2012, 12:47 PM
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United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
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Originally Posted by OrbitalGolem View Post
I finally got Phoenix and have been practicing for my eventual start in 3D with the D02S and a Mini CP that should be arriving Monday. I've been using the Blade MCPx model with auto-stabilization turned off (passive flybarless) and the motor rating dialed up a notch per an earlier posting. I'm having little trouble with forward/backward flips and rolls in the simulator, which to me is a bad sign when I start doing them for real. Is the MCPx model fairly representative of what to expect with the D02S and Mini? Flips/rolls seem incredibly straightforward with an MCPx in Phoenix.

I'm using the Devo 7.

Walkera indicates in the D02S manual to use 100-50-100 for throttle in idle-up. I've seen lots of folks using 100% throttle across the board. Why would someone want 50% throttle at mid-stick at zero pitch? I'd think that there'd be a higher chance of motor bog as the stick is moved? Isn't it better to have flat 100%? In my sport flying, I use 0-95-100 when the wind is nasty.

I'm using Walkera's recommended pitch curve of -50%, 0%, 50%. Is this suitable?

I've left the pot settings stock (elev/aile gain and extent pots between 10:30 - 11). I've seen postings indicating that these should be good for flips/rolls. My D02S doesn't have any nasty wobble/shaking.

Lastly - here's a weird one. In idle-up at full negative throttle stick (with 100% set across the board), I see the throttle level in the LCD display actually start falling at the fourth negative index marker (85-90% negative travel). At full negative stick, it actually shows 87% throttle. 100% is shown everywhere else. I've made sure that the throttle curve is 100-100-100-100-100. Any ideas?
The MCPX flies NOTHING like the v120d02s in phoenix or in real life. Its lighter, smaller and not as powerful. I did all my flight training on the Trex 250 3GX version in phoenix. I believe i fly in phoenix with the gyro switch off (the little orange tab on the bottom is not lit) It flies more like the D02s this way IMO. With the gyro tab lit up the tail gyro is way to strong and will turn the heli towards whatever direction the rotor gets angled. I do not like this type of gyro, i prefer to have my own control over the heading. This gyro method of turning the heading into the main rotor's heading angle makes it harder to fly for me. I prefer gyro settings to be minimal and do the corrections myself, but thats just my opinion. Newer pilots, gyros can be your best friend though. Just another note on Phoenix: I have also used the Trex 250 3G as a manually scaled down model. You can edit the model and scale it down to about 70-80% without issues. This should be close to the actual size of the v120d02S. But i still like the way the stock 250 3g flies better than the scaled down version.

My d02s curves are as follows.

Throttle curves:
Normal: 0 - 35 - 50 - 85- 100
ST 1: 100 - 85 - 80 - 85 - 100
ST 2: 100 - 100 - 100 - 100 - 100

Pitch curves:
Normal: 32 - 45 - 50 - 75 - 100
ST 1: 0 - 25 - 50 - 75 - 100
ST 2: 0 - 25 - 50 - 75 - 100

Though in 3d flight i almost always use ST 2. I also hardly ever fly in "Normal" mode as you can tell by my "normal" flight mode i use a lot of negative pitch also. I prefer to use pitch to adjust altitude, not just throttle in normal mode. To answer your question(i think). The v120d02S would probably prefer to run in 3d at 100% flat throttle if you are prone to stick slamming or are not yet able to tightly control the sticks. By adding to much positive or negative pitch in a maneuver the motor will bog, sometimes even at 100% output. Lots of things play a factor in motor bogging. Current velocity, wind direction and velocity, Throttle attack speed (the speed at which you apply throttle), Pitch attack speed (the speed at which pitch is applied with your throttle) and also the major problem is weather or not the battery has the discharge rating that is required under harder maneuvers. There is also battery capacitance in relation to discharge C rating. You can think of this like a pool of fuel that always gets filled by the battery. Your motor is always using this pool as fuel but as the maneuvers get more aggressive and the motor runs at higher constant throttle for longer periods the pool will get depleted and the motor will bog. This is the reason why after attempting harder moves like tick tocks some people might notice you have to return to a steady hover to allow the motor to pick back up speed or you loose the tail. Once in a steady hover or flight for a second the motor picks back up and stops bogging. This effect is mostly noticed on cheap or older batteries that are reaching the end of the line because the electrolyte inside the battery is breaking down. I recently went though this with my 4f200 and the original stock battery that came with it. It caused a few crashes before i even knew that the battery had 1 bad cell and was loosing power intermittently under some flight conditions.

Okay so enough babbling, hopefully this info helps. Now here's the latest video (available in selectable 720 HD):

V120D02S - 3D Basic Inverted flight (3 min 6 sec)
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Old Jun 03, 2012, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by thloh85 View Post
Hi Don,
I think you're rotating it too fast, my RX picks up big movements like that too. Could you try rotating the tail slowly, about 10 degrees / sec.
Thanks
Ok, looks like your right...for very slow movements the gyro does nothing. So it looks like they have a deadband built-in to prevent wag.

I found long ago that gently squeezing the forks of the tail steering arm will take the slop out of the tail mechanish. Just so there is no play but not tighter. Then set the tail linkage in rate mode for minimum drift. Then do HH and if it drifts give a little trim...don't go over three clicks during a flight as it will think your putting in rudder correction (gyro light will blink if this happens). Then next flight it will remember the new rudder center, repeat trim if necessary but remember the three click rule.

YMMV, Don
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Old Jun 03, 2012, 05:30 PM
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United States, FL, Palm Coast
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Originally Posted by dbennettya View Post

I found long ago that gently squeezing the forks of the tail steering arm will take the slop out of the tail "mechanish."
Damn drunks up in here!

"No occifer, thats just how i say "mechanish". "
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Old Jun 03, 2012, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
The MCPX flies NOTHING like the v120d02s in phoenix or in real life. Its lighter, smaller and not as powerful. I did all my flight training on the Trex 250 3GX version in phoenix. I believe i fly in phoenix with the gyro switch off (the little orange tab on the bottom is not lit) It flies more like the D02s this way IMO. With the gyro tab lit up the tail gyro is way to strong and will turn the heli towards whatever direction the rotor gets angled. I do not like this type of gyro, i prefer to have my own control over the heading. This gyro method of turning the heading into the main rotor's heading angle makes it harder to fly for me. I prefer gyro settings to be minimal and do the corrections myself, but thats just my opinion. Newer pilots, gyros can be your best friend though. Just another note on Phoenix: I have also used the Trex 250 3G as a manually scaled down model. You can edit the model and scale it down to about 70-80% without issues. This should be close to the actual size of the v120d02S. But i still like the way the stock 250 3g flies better than the scaled down version.

My d02s curves are as follows.

Throttle curves:
Normal: 0 - 35 - 50 - 85- 100
ST 1: 100 - 85 - 80 - 85 - 100
ST 2: 100 - 100 - 100 - 100 - 100

Pitch curves:
Normal: 32 - 45 - 50 - 75 - 100
ST 1: 0 - 25 - 50 - 75 - 100
ST 2: 0 - 25 - 50 - 75 - 100

Though in 3d flight i almost always use ST 2. I also hardly ever fly in "Normal" mode as you can tell by my "normal" flight mode i use a lot of negative pitch also. I prefer to use pitch to adjust altitude, not just throttle in normal mode. To answer your question(i think). The v120d02S would probably prefer to run in 3d at 100% flat throttle if you are prone to stick slamming or are not yet able to tightly control the sticks. By adding to much positive or negative pitch in a maneuver the motor will bog, sometimes even at 100% output. Lots of things play a factor in motor bogging. Current velocity, wind direction and velocity, Throttle attack speed (the speed at which you apply throttle), Pitch attack speed (the speed at which pitch is applied with your throttle) and also the major problem is weather or not the battery has the discharge rating that is required under harder maneuvers. There is also battery capacitance in relation to discharge C rating. You can think of this like a pool of fuel that always gets filled by the battery. Your motor is always using this pool as fuel but as the maneuvers get more aggressive and the motor runs at higher constant throttle for longer periods the pool will get depleted and the motor will bog. This is the reason why after attempting harder moves like tick tocks some people might notice you have to return to a steady hover to allow the motor to pick back up speed or you loose the tail. Once in a steady hover or flight for a second the motor picks back up and stops bogging. This effect is mostly noticed on cheap or older batteries that are reaching the end of the line because the electrolyte inside the battery is breaking down. I recently went though this with my 4f200 and the original stock battery that came with it. It caused a few crashes before i even knew that the battery had 1 bad cell and was loosing power intermittently under some flight conditions.

Okay so enough babbling, hopefully this info helps. Now here's the latest video (available in selectable 720 HD):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG18eCDyquU

Thanks for the info! Since the motor likes 100% throttle, when would you use ST1, where in your case the throttle curve drops to 80%? Is that used to prevent the bird from climbing in altitude at mid-stick? It seems like dropping motor speed to 80% or Walkera's recommendation of 50% is problematic and a ticking time bomb for a failed flip/roll?

Should I leave the RX pot settings at stock? Elev/aile gain and extent pots between 10:30 - 11.
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Old Jun 03, 2012, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by OrbitalGolem View Post
Thanks for the info! Since the motor likes 100% throttle, when would you use ST1, where in your case the throttle curve drops to 80%? Is that used to prevent the bird from climbing in altitude at mid-stick? It seems like dropping motor speed to 80% or Walkera's recommendation of 50% is problematic and a ticking time bomb for a failed flip/roll?

Should I leave the RX pot settings at stock? Elev/aile gain and extent pots between 10:30 - 11.
RX gains are a bit of a preference. You should be good with stock gain settings at first.

As for the curves, heres the deal. Like i said there are lots of factors involved! One of which is how well YOU are able to feather the throttle stick when you get into 3D. 70% output at mid stick is sufficient in most cases in 3d. Think about it this way. As the stick reaches mid point you will be in a sustained hover or forward flight of some kind. Not usually doing a move at mid stick other then sustained inverted hover. There is no reason for the throttle to be at 100% unless you are doing harder 3D moves. As the you move the throttle stick UP the pitch also goes UP the problem here is that when pitch is induced into the blade's air stream it's like hitting the breaks. It causes resistance and makes the motor work harder. So you have to also have the throttle increase as the pitch goes up or down.

So a pitch curve of 0 - 25 - 50 - 75 - 100 is called linear. Using a linear pitch curve for 3D:

As the stick is pushed to the bottom limit maximum negative pitch is induced to the blade. My ST-1 setting has the throttle at 100% at this point. As you move the stick UP toward the 25% mark my throttle is at 85. Since there is less resistance on the rotor as the pitch will be reduced, 85% is just as good as 100% at full bottom stick, or close. As you move the stick up to the middle point you should be at 0 degrees pitch and your blades are running flat with nearly no resistance, so you should be able to go as low as 50% throttle if you really wanted to. I choose to keep mine higher though, just my preference. Moving the stick UP again to the 75% point you are again begining to induce positive pitch to the blades so my throttle again RAISES to 85% to keep the head speed up as resistance is added because of the pitch. Moving the stick UP again to 100%, fully up position you are now applying full pitch to the blades again and also full resistance to the rotor. So my throttle once again goes up to 100%. I really do use both settings in ST-1 and ST-2 it just depends on how i'm feeling. In reality it's very windy here and usualy above 20 mph gusts blowing though, so thats my reason for having a 100% flat curve in ST-2. It just keeps the over all head speed up and fights the winds better. The ST-1 curve should be MORE than enough with your helicopter's mechanics set properly in normal to low winds. You have to learn what YOU like and adjust these settings. There is no real right or wrong way... Well i guess there COULD be a wrong way, but lets avoid that happening, lol.
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