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Old Dec 06, 2012, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by warbirdzfan View Post
I am new to this forum but have just purchased several of the CS-10 units to experiment with using different motor & lipo combinations. I admit I bought these purely for the addictive sound. So far using 2 different 5s setups on both a Turnigy 2350kv outrunner & a NTM prop drive 2200kv have shown around 950- 1050 watts on the power analyser but have given slack performance in the 2 jets I have used them in (Durafly Vampire & Lander Panther)
I have also tried the recommended Turnigy 2855 2800kv motor & another 2750kv motor that came stock with the Vampire on 4s with similar slack performance. I haven't yet tried the higher kv motors on 5s for fear of burning out the motors.
The 2350kv Turnigy burnt out after 3 flights on 5s in spite of its lacklustre performance. As soon as I went back to a 5 blade impellor on 5s the performance jumped back to where it should be.
My conclusion so far is that the 10 blade impellors are far less efficient than their lesser bladed cousins.
If you are looking for a good motor for 5s, try the Tacon 2550kv inrunner. I have found this motor to be outstanding on 5s. My pz Habu is topping out at 116.9 mph @ 85amps, 1500watts. Worth the $40 usd when it's in stock imo.

http://www.hobbypartz.com/96m821-2860-2550kv.html

Parkzone Habu- Change Sun 70MM 10 blade fan unit/ Tacon LBP2860 2550kv motor/ 5s pack. (3 min 32 sec)
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 08:45 PM
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Australia, VIC, Melbourne
Joined Nov 2006
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Tacon - Leopard
In this table:
http://www.leopardhobby.com/product/...ionID=01020204

That would be one of the best 5S motors to use in a CS10/12 - for high power. (as outlined above).
For 'average' power, use the L2855-2300kv

I keep meaning to get one.....
Oh, and that is a GREAT value price too!
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Old Dec 07, 2012, 12:32 AM
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Australia, QLD, Woody Point
Joined Aug 2011
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Thanks for the "heads up" on motor selection Skyryder. You too Peter. It has been a big help. I had already come to the conclusion that something in the 2500kv range was about right for the CS-10 on 5s. The Tacon 2550kv is out of stock on the site you have posted but they may be available elsewhere. In the mean time I do have a Turnigy L2855 2300kv motor on order from Hobbyking so I will be keen to give that setup a try. I have decided to stick with the Vampire to test the CS unit as it has the most generous exhaust pipe diameter at 63mm compared to the more restricted one on the Panther which is only 54mm. The Panther is plenty fast enough with its current setup which is an NTM Prop Drive 3000kv motor spinning a 5 blade Eflite impellor on 5s. (Noisy but fast) I also have a Habu which could be a good candidate for the Tacon motor setup like Skyryder has on his.
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Old Dec 07, 2012, 12:49 AM
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My Vampire is 1.5Kg (1.6Kg with larger battery) and it flies very nicely on the L2855-2300kv CS10. You wouldn't even really want high power in it anyway. I won't be changing that one ever!
Most people have Vampire's at 1.2Kg to 1.3Kg area, so they could go a bit faster than mine - or run a bit lower power (eg 2100kv) setup instead..

The Habu... for sure a plane aimed for speed!
I have a Lander CS10 Alloy 6S (has a 2960-2200kv) fan for that (A Meteor - Habu clone... $72 all up ( I paid $66 tho). So that is a far more viable option... more power, and cheaper... than 5S in that case. I haven't put it in yet, but it will be good! 2.2Kg peak thrust and 1.9/2.0 ongoing. (bench). Less Amps.... cheaper, lighter ESC etc, and less 'over-spec stress' on the motor. (both the Tacon and Lander are very much the same motor specs).

So whilst that Tacon is a great motor, and ideal for high power 5S - and I want to get one to test - the 6S path is cheaper, more efficient, and equal, or higher power by a bit.
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Old Dec 07, 2012, 07:29 PM
chuck
santa barbara, CA
Joined May 2009
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guys , i have been doing some bench tests and am surprised at how much the lip changes the load. in most of the airframes i would use the fan in the lip wont be used. i know that every intake is different but can u give me some kind of a guess what i will see in the plane? if the load (watts ) are as low in the plane as w/o the lip i will need to go up in kv , so i am just trying to get an idea.

tia , chuck.
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Old Dec 07, 2012, 08:10 PM
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United States, MO, Warrensburg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SKYRYDER1000 View Post
If you are looking for a good motor for 5s, try the Tacon 2550kv inrunner. I have found this motor to be outstanding on 5s. My pz Habu is topping out at 116.9 mph @ 85amps, 1500watts. Worth the $40 usd when it's in stock imo.

http://www.hobbypartz.com/96m821-2860-2550kv.html
Your jet flies great on that motor, thanks for providing the data. Seems like you had a stiff headwind that day too.
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Old Dec 07, 2012, 10:52 PM
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Australia, QLD, Woody Point
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Originally Posted by PeterVRC View Post
My Vampire is 1.5Kg (1.6Kg with larger battery) and it flies very nicely on the L2855-2300kv CS10. You wouldn't even really want high power in it anyway. I won't be changing that one ever!
Most people have Vampire's at 1.2Kg to 1.3Kg area, so they could go a bit faster than mine - or run a bit lower power (eg 2100kv) setup instead..

The Habu... for sure a plane aimed for speed!
I have a Lander CS10 Alloy 6S (has a 2960-2200kv) fan for that (A Meteor - Habu clone... $72 all up ( I paid $66 tho). So that is a far more viable option... more power, and cheaper... than 5S in that case. I haven't put it in yet, but it will be good! 2.2Kg peak thrust and 1.9/2.0 ongoing. (bench). Less Amps.... cheaper, lighter ESC etc, and less 'over-spec stress' on the motor. (both the Tacon and Lander are very much the same motor specs).

So whilst that Tacon is a great motor, and ideal for high power 5S - and I want to get one to test - the 6S path is cheaper, more efficient, and equal, or higher power by a bit.
Peter, Just for interest I tried installing a 2200kv NTM Prop Drive motor to my CS-10 & installed it in my Vampire to try on 5s. (I'm still waiting for the delivery of my L2855 2300kv motor) I removed some of the cheater hole restrictions to try to improve airflow. This time to try to be more quantitative in my test I used a digital scale to measure thrust installed in the plane. I only got 900 grams (31.6 oz) of thrust. That's not even 1:1 as the plane weighs in at 1300 grams. Would the L2855 2300kv motor do much better? Part of the problem could be my 5s batteries. I only have 3000mah 20c Zippys to test with at this stage.
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Old Dec 07, 2012, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by chas650r View Post
guys , i have been doing some bench tests and am surprised at how much the lip changes the load. in most of the airframes i would use the fan in the lip wont be used. i know that every intake is different but can u give me some kind of a guess what i will see in the plane? if the load (watts ) are as low in the plane as w/o the lip i will need to go up in kv , so i am just trying to get an idea.

tia , chuck.

Could you please give more details about how the lip changes the load?
better ???
or worse???
more ???
or less???

thanks
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Old Dec 07, 2012, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chas650r View Post
guys , i have been doing some bench tests and am surprised at how much the lip changes the load. in most of the airframes i would use the fan in the lip wont be used. i know that every intake is different but can u give me some kind of a guess what i will see in the plane? if the load (watts ) are as low in the plane as w/o the lip i will need to go up in kv , so i am just trying to get an idea.

tia , chuck.
I am no expert and have done no empirical tests on this subject on my own, nor even research on the net.

Okay, with that out of the way, let me give you my view. Any experts who disagree can use my post for fodder as to why I'm wrong, if they see it differently.

it seems fundamental to me that between lip versus no-lip configurations, the better model of how your own fan is likely to act once mounted in the airframe is WITH THE LIP in all your static testing, if you cannot rig it to use the airframe itself (the better test bed).

Why? Because the nonlaminar, disturbed air from the airplane installation should all be up around the actual inlet area(s), and the fan itself should be getting relatively steady, laminar flow, being located in a tunnel, and smoothly mated to the walls of that tunnel. Of course, your own air inlets may not approximate an idealized lip perfectly, but that feature difference just is-what-it-is -- that's still your best comparison.

Contrast that to the case of the 'unlipped' duct with fan, running in free air. This configuration does not approximate ANY model, including the one in your own airframe, nor the 'reference' ducted fan with an idealized lip!

So I am confused as to why people keep using an un-lipped, motor, fan, and barrel as if it is some reference method.

It's horrible. No one is going to run it that way in use. If you run it that way on the bench, there will be always unfocused, chaotic air ripping around the sharp edges, and whatever local disturbances (flanges, test gear, ceiling fan, etc) that are around will influence it more heavily than with a properly directed flow (lip or ducting).

I hope this admittedly un-parametric exercise convinces you that the best way to test would be in the airframe, next best would be in ductwork simulating the airframe, then next best would be using a model of the actual ductwork, and so on, til we get to the idealized lip.... and it ends there.

Hopefully you seem my point and that the 'raw' fan with no inlet ducting at all is the least accurate model, but I suppose people will continue to do it and report numbers from it, because it's easiest to do.
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Old Dec 07, 2012, 11:27 PM
chuck
santa barbara, CA
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on the bench in open air the lip increased current close to 20% at lower power levels, 450 watts. the fan must cavitate w/o the lip or duct.?

chuck.
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Old Dec 07, 2012, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by chas650r View Post
on the bench in open air the lip increased current close to 20% at lower power levels, 450 watts. the fan must cavitate w/o the lip or duct.?

chuck.
I would surmise just the opposite - -that the increased power consumption is due to the higher amount of good work it is doing -- 'work' being more efficient generation of output (more thrust) at lower RPM, with the lip.

A cavitating prop makes RPM go UP in a powerboat, for instance, because it unloads the prop, and the boat slows (or at least does not go faster with the cavitation versus non-cavitation state)

(But unless we have thrust measurements taken concurrent with your wattage, it remains my theory and not proven, no matter how certain I am of that explanation...)
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Old Dec 07, 2012, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chas650r View Post
guys , i have been doing some bench tests and am surprised at how much the lip changes the load. in most of the airframes i would use the fan in the lip wont be used. i know that every intake is different but can u give me some kind of a guess what i will see in the plane? if the load (watts ) are as low in the plane as w/o the lip i will need to go up in kv , so i am just trying to get an idea.

tia , chuck.
Chuck,

In the airframe, the amps will go up.

Testing on the bench should be done with the lip because this approximates how the fan will perform in the airframe.

Your kv decicions should be made with either the fan in the airframe or on the bench with the lip on.
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Old Dec 07, 2012, 11:41 PM
chuck
santa barbara, CA
Joined May 2009
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noob , u beat me to it by seconds thanks for your take, it all makes sense. some of the air entering the fan in free air must be coming directly 90* to the flow and disrupting the rest? where as w/ the lip it's dirrected around the edge better.

chuck
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Old Dec 07, 2012, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by chas650r View Post
noob , u beat me to it by seconds thanks for your take, it all makes sense. some of the air entering the fan in free air must be coming directly 90* to the flow and disrupting the rest? where as w/ the lip it's dirrected around the edge better.

chuck
That's my own mental scheme of what's up, yup!
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Old Dec 07, 2012, 11:45 PM
chuck
santa barbara, CA
Joined May 2009
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Originally Posted by tracknoob View Post
I would surmise just the opposite - -that the increased power consumption is due to the higher amount of good work it is doing -- 'work' being more efficient generation of output (more thrust) at lower RPM, with the lip.

A cavitating prop makes RPM go UP in a powerboat, for instance, because it unloads the prop, and the boat slows (or at least does not go faster with the cavitation versus non-cavitation state)

(But unless we have thrust measurements taken concurrent with your wattage, it remains my theory and not proven, no matter how certain I am of that explanation...)
well ya the rpm would go up here also and the current down as the blades are not able to get all the air they want? maybe stalled is a better word.

chuck
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