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Old Dec 15, 2012, 01:07 PM
manuLRK
Belgium
Joined Sep 2004
1,533 Posts
RC-TIMER 40Amps startup problems

This, same firmware RC-TIMER 40Amps versus HKF30A. Robbe Roxxy 3530/14

Can something be done on the RC-TIMER-40A to prevent this startup problem?

Thanks
manu
PS: this Secraft frame is not mine, i will never get this kind of heavy but nice looking frame.

SK RCTIMER40A (0 min 54 sec)

HKF30A (0 min 37 sec)
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 01:56 PM
Registered User
Joined Apr 2010
28 Posts
hi
i have a problem and maybe someone here can help
i flashed 4 HK F-30A esc with wii esc (using the wii esc flash tool)
3 of them are fine and working Identical to each other but the Fourth is having a Severe timing problems it even have a problem to start and his Current Consumption during starting and working is way high
all the 4 of them is flashed with the same firmware same fuses and same timing
if i flash the problematic esc using kkflashtool with simonk firmware or even with wii esc it works fine but when i flash it again with the wii esc flashtool the problem came back
i can't flash all the 4 of them with the kkflashtool because it works less well then with the
wii esc (i made a thrust current and power tests)
did anyone Have a similar problem and/or know the Source of the problem and how to solve it
Thanks in advance
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 03:52 PM
'FPV'er...not a "LOS'er
Vantasstic's Avatar
Las Vegas, NV
Joined Sep 2003
18,600 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by simonk View Post
I don't have one, sorry. Pictures?
Simon,
Sorry for the bad picture here. I thought the camera did a better job with the snap shot and the ESC is covered in heat shrink again. Here's the blurry picture of the Multistar 10A esc. I'll likely be pulling these back off my quad as it wobbles where my larger flashed RCTimer 10As worked good (but drop the motors with rapid movements...ie comes crashing down). I'll try a get a better picture later...but the Atmel chip on this thing is small.

edit:
Maybe I won't need to worry much about reprogramming my Multistar 10A ESCs. I just did some more PID adjustments and got my little quad running much smoother...about like it was with flashed ESCs. I wouldn't buy them again though. HK says the Multistar line is programmable, but most of them don't seem to have pads to connect too. I'm thinking the HK Atmel d/l adapter might be wirth getting for future reprogramming.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 08:32 PM
Aerhead
MN
Joined Mar 2009
213 Posts
Simon

Norbert is on vacation till the 21st and I'm real rusty flashing ESC. I've only used Ponyprog before. Do you think Ponyprog is OK to use?

Larry

Quote:
Originally Posted by simonk View Post
Hello! Any news? I'll commit it if it works.
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Old Dec 15, 2012, 09:33 PM
Registered User
Joined Oct 2012
115 Posts
hello guys
I want to ask this accessory is Opto or trasistor dual N - P ?
thanks
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 06:19 AM
hacker
Canada, BC, North Vancouver
Joined Dec 2010
936 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by alll View Post
This, same firmware RC-TIMER 40Amps versus HKF30A. Robbe Roxxy 3530/14

Can something be done on the RC-TIMER-40A to prevent this startup problem?
Hi, Manu! I don't think we can improve the starting in software without a significantly different approach. The hardware difference is probably the sense resistors being modified for 6S but still leaving the 33k to each sense pin for impedance matching. This makes the signal too weak during starting. You can probably improve it by shorting across the 33k resistors directly connected to ADC4, ADC5, and AIN1. Alas, they are between the two sandwiched boards, and they're the 3-in-one packs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eladashk View Post
hi
i have a problem and maybe someone here can help
i flashed 4 HK F-30A esc with wii esc (using the wii esc flash tool)
3 of them are fine and working Identical to each other but the Fourth is having a Severe timing problems it even have a problem to start and his Current Consumption during starting and working is way high
all the 4 of them is flashed with the same firmware same fuses and same timing
if i flash the problematic esc using kkflashtool with simonk firmware or even with wii esc it works fine but when i flash it again with the wii esc flashtool the problem came back
Hmm. I would check that the sense area of the board (see first picture here) and see if all of the components match and nothing looks broken. I don't understand why it would be any different with the wii-esc flash tool, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerhead View Post
Simon
Norbert is on vacation till the 21st and I'm real rusty flashing ESC. I've only used Ponyprog before. Do you think Ponyprog is OK to use?
Hi Larry! I don't see why not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by future88 View Post
I want to ask this accessory is Opto or trasistor dual N - P ?
That image is not loading for me.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 08:10 AM
manuLRK
Belgium
Joined Sep 2004
1,533 Posts
Thanks "master".
Quote:
Originally Posted by simonk View Post
Hi, Manu! I don't think we can improve ...
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 09:52 AM
James not bond
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United States, MN, Minneapolis
Joined May 2012
2,074 Posts
@simon..
i saw wii-esc added a so-called complementary pwm mode which would help slowing the prop down faster than it usually is.... I wonder if you have similar thing in....

(just want to try both out and see what is the difference.... i dont see much diff yet tho)
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 01:36 PM
Registered User
Joined Apr 2010
28 Posts
simon
removing the sense solve the timing problem.
Although it is strange that the the 3 other esc's work properly whit the bemf capacitors on board
Should i remove the capacitors from the other 3 esc's so that all of them will be the same??
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 05:06 PM
Registered User
Australia, SA, Renmark West
Joined Sep 2011
399 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by wazzer View Post
To SimonK and Lazy Zero

I just want to say thank you again for all the hard work and innovation you have shared with us.
Its most appreciated

With the help of the very nice HK adapter i have just flashed another set of ESCs in about 2 minutes.

I now have three Multirotors all running on SimonK Firmware

Thanks again

Ben
Well said Ben, I absolutely agree - thank you Simon for your hard work and for sharing your expertise.
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 06:19 PM
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Philippines, NCR, QC
Joined Dec 2011
109 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFernMan View Post
I can confirm that the HobbyKing BlueSeries 12A take bs_nfet.hex

I've flashed these and they're great little ESCs.

I've also recent did some mystery 30a and I needed to flash them with bs.hex.

So yea BlueSeries and Mystery are not always the same. You really need to check the Fets before flashing.
Hi fernman, how does one go about checking the FETs before flashing. I rely solely on firmware hex files for flashing from the Tom Snow file but recently, a lot of generic esc's are coming into the market which makes it difficult to tell which hex file to use.
Appreciate any links or reference with regards to recognizing the Fets.

best,
larry
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Old Dec 16, 2012, 06:25 PM
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larryf8's Avatar
Philippines, NCR, QC
Joined Dec 2011
109 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by saabguyspg View Post
Hi Larry, just to update I can flash firmware to the esc via the esc servo plug now. However I do have to use the rapid esc flash tool which allows me to manually enter my comm number.

Why I have to do this is becuase the LazyZero flash tool does not run properly on my machine for some reason.


I managed to flash the hex including the bootloader with the LazyZero flash tool and my AVR MKII but I could only get the program to run after following this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotat...&v=D6LaWqZi6Fk


After that I wanted to try flashing over the three pin servo plug on the esc just so I would know the bootloader etc was working.

When I run the script ending on _SERIAL.cmd I get a "dos" window showing me what the script is running... that goes for a few pages then stops and asks me to press a key to continue.

I press a key and that is all she wrote... the program does not start.

Knowing that I had a sucessfull flash with the bootloader I then downloaded the rapid esc flashing tool and had no issues flashing firmware over servo plug on the esc.

So even though I would love for the Lazy zero tool to work it just does not on my machine.

Steve
ps I have not tried to flash the wiiesc firmware but I am sure it will work becuase the bootloader is working fine with rapid esc tool
thank you sir. thing is, when i flash with lazyzero flashtool, i flash first with simonks firmware with bootloader enabled. Then without disconnecting anything, i carry on to flash the wii-esc file and everything is peaches. Testing the motors turns out a beautifull start up and full throttle response.
Now the problem with my other esc's, is when i use the bootloader (the 3 servo wire connection) to flash the wii-esc file, the motors won't start. So i go back to the previous style wiring the 6pad to usbasp programmer and flash the esc with simonk + bootloader then immediately flash to wii-esc. No problem.

So my bootloader option doesn't work when i flash directly to wii-esc.

best,
larry
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 12:19 AM
Koo
A semi-advanced FPV newbie
Koo's Avatar
United States, OH, Oxford
Joined Mar 2012
1,147 Posts
I believe that I ruined one of my HK 20 amp escs (F-20A). I was trying to flash four of them and all others turned out well except this one. Instead of making the normal beeps, it does some raising beeps and the motor seems to shake a bit.
Any clue why this happened and if I can still use the ESC for something? Could be one of my planes, not necessarily a quad.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 01:11 AM
Registered User
United States, CA, Anaheim
Joined Dec 2012
57 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by simonk View Post
The only other thing that might cause lack of a calibration beep is if the signal keeps shifting or looks too jittery. This doesn't explain why it would work on some of them, though.
Thanx so much for your response. I can't explain it either. If you look at the flash files I posted, they don't make sense either. Unless both versions of lazy's flash program and avrdude I have are not compatible with the FW that was on the ESCs, which doesn't seem possible. I don't think it's an issue with the tx, rx, or interference. The tx/rx work fine on other aircraft, and the ESCs work fine on this same quad after flashing your latest FW.

Since they work now, I'm not going to think about it anymore.
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Old Dec 17, 2012, 04:03 AM
hacker
Canada, BC, North Vancouver
Joined Dec 2010
936 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jy0933 View Post
@simon..
i saw wii-esc added a so-called complementary pwm mode which would help slowing the prop down faster than it usually is.... I wonder if you have similar thing in....

(just want to try both out and see what is the difference.... i dont see much diff yet tho)
Hello! Rather than letting the PWM'd phase float wherever (usually back up above battery voltage until the current flow stops) during the PWM OFF cycle, the opposite side FET is turned on instead. While the phase would be at or above battery voltage, this avoids the losses that would otherwise occur through the FET body diode (0.6V-1.0V or so) and so actually increases efficiency (aka "active rectification"). Once the current flow stops, it will actually start flowing the other way and create an active braking effect. This all happens at the PWM frequency, and removes the "sloppiness" of the battery voltage and forward diode voltage from the motor's back-EMF ("freewheeling" effect) and ends up causing the throttle response to be more linear. RPM also becomes less dependent on load.

Anyway, it's in the code, but must be enabled (set COMP_PWM to 1 in tgy.asm). I don't have builds by default since it introduces a bit of a bump at high throttle and all boards are slightly different for FET dead-times. The F-20A, F-30A seem OK with ~600ns dead-time, but the F-60A needs a bit more, and the tp_nfet boards more than that. If it's not right, it starts to cause a short that can dump lots of current and heat things up, and the timing required is quite small and so becomes difficult to do dynamically. Basically, the number of board type files would have to grow many times to support everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eladashk View Post
removing the sense solve the timing problem.
Although it is strange that the the 3 other esc's work properly whit the bemf capacitors on board
Should i remove the capacitors from the other 3 esc's so that all of them will be the same??
It is probably that there was (or still is) a difference in those components, either tolerance or something faulty, and removing the capacitors removes or hides the issue. Anyway, with the capacitors gone, the motor timing will be slightly different. I would try to make them all the same.
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