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Old Feb 10, 2012, 11:23 AM
just gotta mess with it!
2Doggs's Avatar
North West Louisiana
Joined Nov 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnstorm100 View Post
I had zero issues with the 2 ZYX I put on my 450s.
Any ideas?
Thanks
Sounds like a really frustrating problem! I would suggest you try using the problem unit on one of your 450's, to see if you get the same thing, and using a controller from the 450 on the 500. Otherwise, it still sounds like some sort of static build-up, despite all the measures you've taken. I can't imagine what kind of fault you could have in the controller that would cause the symptoms you describe.
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Old Feb 10, 2012, 11:34 AM
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barnstorm100's Avatar
United States, CA, Rancho Cordova
Joined Jan 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeHRC View Post
What headspeed are you running ?
The head speed is low but not too low. I'm thinking about 2250 but its the same head speed at 2 mins as it is before 2 mins. Like I said, its really great for the first two mins. I using the 12t pinion, 1500kv at 80%. Its not nodding but more like loss of control in the roll.

I think 2doggs has the obvious next step.
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Old Feb 10, 2012, 01:12 PM
What goes up, must come down..
ZeroPitch's Avatar
United States, CA, Mission Viejo
Joined Sep 2011
565 Posts
Eliminating cyclic wag?

I have three birds with the ZYX gyro, a 250SE, a Blade 400, and a 450 Pro. All three are exhibiting exactly the same symptom. Hopefully someone can give a few pointers to help dial it out.

After a hard maneuver, like a quick flip, roll, or quick stop at the bottom of a pitch pump, the cyclic wags for a moment just like an mCPX. The whole heli shakes for a few seconds. It wouldn't bother me too much, but on the 450 it sounds like it drops the head speed a bit and I have a lot less collective sensitivity during the shake. Don't want to have that happen when I'm throwing the heli at the ground really fast ;-)

Starting with the Soft-3D setting, I've tried dropping overall pitch and roll gain from 35 down to as low as 20. At 35, it shakes often, sometimes even in a hover. At 30, it's a bit better. At 20, I get some porpoising in FFF, which I don't like at all, but anyway it still shakes. So, I'm at 25 right now which is a compromise.

I have ZERO experience with changing the PID values. I've tried reading some of the PID FAQ's and played with some PID sims on the internet (there's a Segway sim that's pretty cool), but for the life of me still don't understand how the three values interact. I ended up with pretty unstable systems most of the time. Makes me pretty damn nervous about changing the settings on my nice, shiny, just rebuilt Pro...

So, how should I go about dialing out this wag? What PID value or values should I tweak? Anyone got an easy to read & understand FAQ which gives symptoms and solutions? Or is this the wrong direction? Should I be messing with gyro deadband or some other setting?
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Last edited by ZeroPitch; Feb 10, 2012 at 01:29 PM.
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Old Feb 10, 2012, 01:43 PM
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Dr.M's Avatar
United States, WA, Issaquah
Joined May 2011
1,523 Posts
cyclic wag/wobble

Cyclic instability or oscillations are a sign of too much overall gain or an imbalance in the PID settings (assuming mechanical setup is good, no vibes, no static). Oscillation after an abrupt cyclic input (such as flicking the cyclic stick) indicates too much I gain or too little D.

First decide on a good starting total gain value - this is one where cyclic wag is only observed after sudden cyclic input, or when the rotor is unloaded. Then reduce I by 5 points and test. Reduce by 5 more if you still got wag. Don't go below 40.

Assuming there are still wobbles, next step is to start adding D gain. Start with 15. Add in increments of 5 until the oscillations stop. Try not to exceed 30.

Make sure you change both roll and pitch settings.

If all this fails, it's time to suspect a mechanical issue - servos too slow or sloppy, binding or slop in the head, ball too far out on servo horn.
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Old Feb 10, 2012, 02:35 PM
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Joined Jun 2009
113 Posts
For sale 1 brand new zyx still in box 1 brand new USB cable 1 used zyx and 1 used USB cable $90 for all i have decided to move to something else these are located in San Diego so shipping will be less then overseas I will only charge actual shipping cost will add pictures tommrow
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Old Feb 10, 2012, 02:38 PM
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Joined Jun 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeHRC View Post
Sorry - disagree. if they are essential how does this work ?



they are purely there to lock the head to the swash rotationally, they have no effect on the pitch at all - they pitch is determined by the swash / rotor grip movement. There are many FBL head that don't use them and lock the head / swash in othe rmanner - e.g. mcp-X + early Protos heads use the swash to rotor link rods
I have this same fbl head and am goingto put it on my 500 Did you use the stock main shaft or is there a different one that has to be used? like shorter or longer? is so do you know the part # for Align?
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Old Feb 10, 2012, 03:05 PM
Team Mulikow 3D
Oxfordshire, UK
Joined Jan 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jginsandiego View Post
I have this same fbl head and am goingto put it on my 500 Did you use the stock main shaft or is there a different one that has to be used? like shorter or longer? is so do you know the part # for Align?
Sorry, not mine, just a picture that I found
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Old Feb 10, 2012, 03:32 PM
Looptastic!
sp00fman's Avatar
Enschede, Netherlands
Joined Nov 2009
2,288 Posts
ZeroPitch, have you seen this vid of the total G settings?
Skip to 6:20
Radix facts episode 3 Total G questions part 2 of 3 (9 min 40 sec)


It does not correspond to the Tarot settings but does give an idea how to watch the behavior of the heli, and then experiment with PID settings to see if it helps your to solve problems.

I have not figured out the settings myself. When weather improves I'll try to make a spreadsheet for myself with a few rows of settings i want to try on the field and write small reports about the effect it gives. Mine flies just fine but I just like to get a general feeling of setting this bugger up.
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Old Feb 10, 2012, 06:23 PM
AMA # 949551
rikybob's Avatar
USA, FL, Orlando
Joined Oct 2009
2,176 Posts
ZYX redux...

Hi all!

Got two ZYX units back in October and at the exact moment of deliver I fell into a deal on two brand new Helis of the 500 class.

I quick sold my units to finance the venture. What a shame!

Some months pass and I slip a ZYX under the wifeypoos radar along with the USB cable!

Along with a 12 bux HK FBL head I am, in fact, in HEAVEN!

What a blast! It's literally exactly like my MCP X only BIGGER!

Man, I need one of these for my Align 500CF in a BAD way!

Happy flyin' and best to all!

Brian
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Old Feb 10, 2012, 08:58 PM
as much as I can
beenflying's Avatar
NZ
Joined Jan 2010
4,911 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by beenflying View Post
Mike, just to clarify this, setting up the monitor screen is really not necessary. The gyro takes the Tx stick center, at switch on, as center of travel, so setting up the monitor screen is optional. Setting up the monitor screen really only guarantees equal travel in both directions and most Tx's are really not that far out that you would notice it.

It has to be this way because the gyro can be setup and flown perfectly well without using the program box or PC link, just by programming it with the Tx. This is also the reason you cannot use trim, because the trimmed position is taken as center stick the next time you power the gyro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeHRC View Post
Mine doesn't work quite like this - it takes note of the input from the Tx, but doesn't take it as centre.

Try this, power up, set full up trim - the FBL unit will give a lot of swash angle and leave it there (as still getting an input). Now power all off, power up Tx an dRx again, and swash levels at centre stick - and then gives some swash angle again, not as much as before - but it certainly isn't taking it as centre stick.

It may be that my test is not valid, but so far as I can work out this says that the FBL unit would see a non-zeroed input from Tx the as a valid input. Unless the standard "RC deadband" is a large value so that it ignores this possibility.

I'm confusing mself now
I've just checked this Mike and the gyro definitely learns the stick center every time you power up the gyro.

What I did was to move the aileron cyclic trim until the aileron cyclic started to move. On my Tx with my deadband this was 7 clicks of trim. I went to 8 clicks and then powered off the gyro and repowered. The cyclic was back to level and stable. I then needed to feed in a further 7 clicks of trim before the cyclic started to move again. I went to 8 clicks more (16) and then powered off the gyro and repowered again. The cyclic was back to level and stable again and took another 7 clicks of trim to get it to move again.

There is obviously an off center limit, which is why your full trim test didn't work.
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Old Feb 11, 2012, 01:30 AM
Team Mulikow 3D
Oxfordshire, UK
Joined Jan 2007
4,118 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by beenflying View Post
I've just checked this Mike and the gyro definitely learns the stick center every time you power up the gyro.

What I did was to move the aileron cyclic trim until the aileron cyclic started to move. On my Tx with my deadband this was 7 clicks of trim. I went to 8 clicks and then powered off the gyro and repowered. The cyclic was back to level and stable. I then needed to feed in a further 7 clicks of trim before the cyclic started to move again. I went to 8 clicks more (16) and then powered off the gyro and repowered again. The cyclic was back to level and stable again and took another 7 clicks of trim to get it to move again.

There is obviously an off center limit, which is why your full trim test didn't work.
OK - thanks for the confirmation BF
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Old Feb 11, 2012, 05:19 AM
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pitchp's Avatar
Australia, VIC, Melbourne
Joined Aug 2010
6,627 Posts
man lol this pilot is crazy with his zyx 450 heli. man he is dangerous lol. @ 2.54 he almost kills the camera man. lol I am really sold with this fbl unit. I can't wait to get mine. Take care out there guys when your flying. Fly responsibly and professionally if you can lol

trex 450 pro v2 by tarot zyx@best3 (4 min 54 sec)



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Last edited by pitchp; Feb 11, 2012 at 05:34 AM.
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Old Feb 11, 2012, 07:36 AM
3d Master in Training
United States, PA, Tunkhannock
Joined Dec 2011
744 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jginsandiego View Post
I have this same fbl head and am goingto put it on my 500 Did you use the stock main shaft or is there a different one that has to be used? like shorter or longer? is so do you know the part # for Align?
Chaos has a head thats identical to that one now. Fits there 550 and 600 models
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Old Feb 11, 2012, 08:10 AM
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Joined Jan 2012
12 Posts
i had similar issues osilating recently after some setup changes

ive managed to dial it out but its not easy to define

but it was after a flick or a pitch drop

i tried first to set centre and ends to monitor settings on program card

then set the centre so that it was a close to even top and bottom as i could then ajusted pitch end points

i think the osilation comes from the elevator and aileron pitches if they are out of wack

it seems quite hard to get an evem - &+ 8 degrees with out the swash centred correctly

i have the gains set at tail 90 / elev 35 / aileron 35

but its taken a few batterys to try to define

i seem to have a mix of soft 3D on head and extreme on tail

but it feels solid

good luck all
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Old Feb 11, 2012, 08:19 AM
Registered User
United States, TX, San Antonio
Joined Apr 2006
274 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by beenflying View Post
When you say pitch and elevator do you mean the pitch and elevator servo. If you don't have pitch (collective) all three servos moving up and down then it's a cable or Rx issue. Try plugging a servo directly into the Rx and see if they do what you expect for that channel (pitch and elevator).

Also make sure your TX is configured for Helicopter 1 servo 90 degree (no mixing). When you look at your monitor screen only one channel should change with each stick axis, except throttle which should move two (pitch and throttle (unless throttle hold is on)).
Thanks everyone. Solved the problem. Had the 1 into3 wire plugged into my receiver plugged into the receiver with the wrong polarity. I inserted all three of my leads into the negative side of the receiver. The manual doesn't specify so you got a 50/50 shot at it. Of course I got the wrong side. All is good now.


One thing I noticed is the unit seems to overrides my spektrum fail safe settings. I tried several times to set the fail safe on the receiver but it won't take. I am guessing the flybarless unit has something to do with it.
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