HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Oct 01, 2012, 08:42 AM
Registered User
Nottinghamshire, UK
Joined Dec 2009
582 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busher View Post
In respect to the nose pitch up in FFF, I have just read on another forum a similar problem, where the ZYX equipped heli would become very pitch sensitive in FFF, however in a different situation, the two could be very well associated but may be a route to an answer.
His problem only occured in FFF but he did not report that the heli did the command itself. He reported that condition made the heli super sensitive to a pitch input i.e a small input made a large change of movement to the heli, So my question is are you by any chance putting small pressure on the elevator stick without realising it? Or have you got a dicky pot on the TX that puts in a slight elevator response around the centre. These are just suggestions by the way as I can tell you are pretty meticulous in your build and test procedures and would not want to upset you in any way.
I'm not upset in the slightest - it's a good point. The helicopter can be most easily pushed over the edge when transitioning from nose-down FFF to level flight. Then the dis-symmetry of lift (dol) causes the heli to nose-up abruptly. So, yes, in this case the slightest touch on the ele is involved to level the helicopter and the sudden nose-up then happens. However, it can also do this all by itself in FFF if a gust of wind is involved giving the same result. The gyro has no answer to this in FW 3.5 whereas earlier versions do (I have test flown the same helicopter back to back with different firmware versions and only v3.5 has the FFF problem).

S
sgbfly is offline Find More Posts by sgbfly
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Oct 01, 2012, 10:28 AM
Registered User
fpainter3's Avatar
USA, KY, Florence
Joined Aug 2007
2,983 Posts
I will just fly slowly until V3.6 or so comes out .
fpainter3 is offline Find More Posts by fpainter3
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 01, 2012, 11:44 AM
Registered User
Joined Apr 2011
211 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgbfly View Post
I'm not upset in the slightest - it's a good point. The helicopter can be most easily pushed over the edge when transitioning from nose-down FFF to level flight. Then the dis-symmetry of lift (dol) causes the heli to nose-up abruptly. So, yes, in this case the slightest touch on the ele is involved to level the helicopter and the sudden nose-up then happens. However, it can also do this all by itself in FFF if a gust of wind is involved giving the same result. The gyro has no answer to this in FW 3.5 whereas earlier versions do (I have test flown the same helicopter back to back with different firmware versions and only v3.5 has the FFF problem).

S
No probs I realised that it was 3.5 based but did not know it was exclusive to 3.5, we will have to hope that tarot come out with an upgrade soon.
Busher is online now Find More Posts by Busher
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 01, 2012, 12:59 PM
Southern Pride
everydayflyer's Avatar
Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
34,363 Posts
FBL and Transmitter Duel Rates

While going back and doing a proper complete setup of the Tarot ZYX-S and my DX7 I made an observation which was news to me.

The servos will move the same amount (full set travel range ) if the Tx is set to 100% or with D/R set as low as 30% . The difference is that with very low D/R settings the servos move in slow motion.

I have read cautions about not using Expo. with some FBL units . Something about causing Expo. on top of Expo. This to me sounds like some FBL units either have Expo. or perhaps the poster was refering the FBL gains to being same as Expo..

Any FBL experts care to clear this up for me.


I do now that with Tx. Ail. and Elev. settings of 100% and 40% Expo. and
D/R 75% and 40% Expo that the D/R settings feel softer. I assumed it was due to reduced Servo throw but now it would seem it ( D/R) slows servo travel down.


Edit:

Went back a ways a found this post by 2Doggs on D/R

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=5253

I agree lowered D/R makes it feel softer but has anyone in fact checked to see if they infact reduce total servo travel or merely slow the servos responce down?




Charles
everydayflyer is online now Find More Posts by everydayflyer
Last edited by everydayflyer; Oct 01, 2012 at 02:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 01, 2012, 03:08 PM
just gotta mess with it!
2Doggs's Avatar
North West Louisiana
Joined Nov 2009
4,559 Posts
Using D/R on your cyclic will definitely soften the feel of the heli. On the bench, you won't see smaller cyclic deflection with reduced D/R - but you may notice the swash move more slowly. The servo limits remain the same in the FBL controller, but with D/R enabled, it is seeing a demand for a lower rate of change. That is in contrast to the way D/R would work with servos hooked up directly to the RX, where you simply see reduced servo travel.

Even if the controller has some built-in expo, you can use expo in your TX to get the feel you prefer around neutral.

It's very easy to check all of this out in reality. For example, you could set up your stunt 1 and 2 modes with exactly the same pitch and throttle curves, but add lower D/R in one mode, and then repeat the exercise setting higher expo in that mode.

You would typically have D/R less than 100% in normal mode, and maybe use more expo in that mode too.
2Doggs is offline Find More Posts by 2Doggs
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Hk500 tt fbl
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 01, 2012, 03:22 PM
Southern Pride
everydayflyer's Avatar
Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
34,363 Posts
Quote:
Quote:
Using D/R on your cyclic will definitely soften the feel of the heli. On the bench, you won't see smaller cyclic deflection with reduced D/R - but you may notice the swash move more slowly. The servo limits remain the same in the FBL controller, but with D/R enabled, it is seeing a demand for a lower rate of change. That is in contrast to the way D/R would work with servos hooked up directly to the RX, where you simply see reduced servo travel
.


Quote:
The servo limits remain the same in the FBL controller
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I knew that is what I was seeing on the bench.

Also knew that responce was much softer with D/R at 75% even though I had the same Expo set for both 100 % and 75%.

Learning the ends and outs of a FBL unit has been an interesting journey and this past week i feel I have learned a great deal but still have only scratched the surface.

Charles
everydayflyer is online now Find More Posts by everydayflyer
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 01, 2012, 03:44 PM
Registered User
Joined Aug 2012
370 Posts
Thanks for all the help! Sgbfly your videos were very helpful.

My heli flew like a champ on my first attempt, un-fortunately was I so shakey and nervous I freaked out and botched a landing. ( wasn't smart to try to land where I was also ). Oh well its all fixed up in about 10minutes just waiting on some new landing skids.

Edit: Oh on dual rates, I turned mine down to 70% for my first 450 flight and hated it. felt really laggy? felt like I had to move the sticks a lot was freaking me out how much I was moving them.

Tarot 450 PRO V2 FBL (4 min 0 sec)
KTMDirtFace is offline Find More Posts by KTMDirtFace
Last edited by KTMDirtFace; Oct 01, 2012 at 03:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 01, 2012, 03:53 PM
Team Mulikow 3D
Oxfordshire, UK
Joined Jan 2007
3,900 Posts
The "expo on expo" comment is based upon dire warnings from Stefan from Beastx, he has said that their FBL unit has expo built into most of the different models (all except Transmitter) and if you add expo in the tranmitter settings you can end up with very strange behaviours when you get "expo on expo" and the movements can be very strange.

This is not the case for the ZYX where Tarot recommend using expo
MikeHRC is online now Find More Posts by MikeHRC
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 01, 2012, 05:22 PM
Registered User
Joined Sep 2012
4 Posts
Can I plug this directly into a orange Satellite from Hobbyking? Thats what the product description says, so i would think ot would work... Thanks!
Sebi97 is offline Find More Posts by Sebi97
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 01, 2012, 07:01 PM
Southern Pride
everydayflyer's Avatar
Haralson County GA. USA
Joined Oct 2004
34,363 Posts
see post here


http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=5239
everydayflyer is online now Find More Posts by everydayflyer
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 01, 2012, 10:42 PM
Registered User
choopi's Avatar
New Brunswick
Joined Feb 2006
1,121 Posts
From 2:40. you can see at 3 occasions the pitch up uncontrolled. FFF into strong wing. Definitely something wrong with v3.5

Tarot ZYX-S ver.3.5 (4 min 26 sec)
choopi is offline Find More Posts by choopi
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 01, 2012, 11:13 PM
Registered User
Joined Aug 2012
370 Posts
Choopie that violent climb up is not from you? its doing it on its own? dang..
KTMDirtFace is offline Find More Posts by KTMDirtFace
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 01, 2012, 11:23 PM
Registered User
Seattle Area
Joined Aug 2007
4,418 Posts
Never really had anything like that happen with two 450 & two 500s all with ZYX, ZYX-S and 3.50. I have seen 450s get twitchy in elevator at very high speeds, say at the top speed of a 450 after a dive with lots of collective, but nothing like the video. It's more of an overcorrection on my part I think.
eagle777 is offline Find More Posts by eagle777
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 02, 2012, 12:35 AM
Never trust laughing dolphins
Joined Feb 2011
2,085 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
While going back and doing a proper complete setup of the Tarot ZYX-S and my DX7 I made an observation which was news to me.

The servos will move the same amount (full set travel range ) if the Tx is set to 100% or with D/R set as low as 30% . The difference is that with very low D/R settings the servos move in slow motion.

I have read cautions about not using Expo. with some FBL units . Something about causing Expo. on top of Expo. This to me sounds like some FBL units either have Expo. or perhaps the poster was refering the FBL gains to being same as Expo..

Any FBL experts care to clear this up for me.


I do now that with Tx. Ail. and Elev. settings of 100% and 40% Expo. and
D/R 75% and 40% Expo that the D/R settings feel softer. I assumed it was due to reduced Servo throw but now it would seem it ( D/R) slows servo travel down.


Edit:

Went back a ways a found this post by 2Doggs on D/R

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=5253

I agree lowered D/R makes it feel softer but has anyone in fact checked to see if they infact reduce total servo travel or merely slow the servos responce down?




Charles
It won't cause servos to slow down for sure, just less max throws when using D/R. The bench testing without spinning the head is not a good test for all of this. Expo might make the initial response a bit slower before movement really kicks in but with fbl we can use as much agility as possible, something best achieved through 100% throws and proper mechanical setup.

The pitching up issue could easily have to do with a jump in pitch creating too much torque to handle. But it still sounds like something that should be fixable. Not sure about v3.5 though, so far I've not felt the need to update. And the FFF issue is not something I'd want (not saying there's no issue).
PHMX is offline Find More Posts by PHMX
Reply With Quote
Old Oct 02, 2012, 02:18 AM
Registered User
Joined Aug 2011
30 Posts
firmware version

just got used zyx-s gyro /w usb cable from club member. I want to know how to find out what firmware being used.

load John's software and tarot 3.0 software but still cannot figure out.
BonBonU is offline Find More Posts by BonBonU
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion New ALZRC 3GYS Flybarless System beenflying Mini Helis 644 Dec 07, 2012 04:44 AM
Found Tarot 450 or like, long flybarless feather shafts TubeBarHeli Aircraft - Electric - Helis (FS/W) 2 Jul 25, 2011 01:13 PM
For Sale New Align 3G Flybarless System V2.1 ptt81 Aircraft - Electric - Helis (FS/W) 1 Jun 06, 2011 04:55 PM
For Sale New 2 cell esc &motor FBL 4g6 spektromized DSM2 spektrum Sat URondo Flybarless system blueindian Aircraft - Electric - Helis (FS/W) 0 May 31, 2011 06:09 PM
Discussion Tarot Flybarless avengedkevinfold Electric Heli Talk 1 May 04, 2011 04:46 AM