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Old Sep 24, 2011, 12:38 PM
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Radian pro burned motor ?!? And some questions

Hi all,
today I maidened my Radian Pro. Everything went perfectly, the plane is really easy on the stick and I had no problems at all even if I'm almost a newbie (first electric plane ever, and I'm returning to the hobby after a very long pause).
I did four short flights: just some motor to gain altitude then a few circling around and then the landing, to practice a bit. Let's say each flight lasted around 3 minutes. On the fourt flight, something went wrong: during the climb the plane started to make a strange noise, and I lost control for a short while. I stopped the motor and took the radian on ground, managing to land without any trouble.
At first I didn't noticed, but the propeller got loose, and I think the noise I heard was due to the vibrations. I tried to start the motor on the ground, and if I keep it at low rpm it goes ok, but if I try to accelerate, it makes a strange sound (something like a scream) and stops, and it even makes little smoke. Of course I didn't tried twice the experiment, and after having got it apart, I've clearly seen some of the inner spires of the motor are burnished.
What do you think? Is it dead?

The battery I'm using is a Multiplex 2A 3S 12C, the ESC is the default 30A from Parkzone, the receiver is the 6200 from Spektrum. After the 4 flights, I still had 11.1V on the battery: this sounds strange to me, shouldn't it be lower?

In case the motor is gone, what could I replace it with? I'd like to find something cheap, if possible. Should I replace the ESC as well?
I'm using an Turnigy accucel 6 to charge the battery, but unfortunately the connector for the balancer is not compatible with that present on the battery. What can I do? May I charge the battery without connecting the balance cable?

I know, lots of questions and a very long story, but I'm trying to find my way into this new world of electric flight!

Luca
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 01:21 PM
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Sounds like the prop adapter is slipping on the motor shaft. The motor shaft spinning inside the adapter could probably get hot from friction. Remove the prop and adapter and inspect the motor shaft. Check to see if the shaft has a groove worn in it from the adapter set screw. You might also inspect the shaft for discoloration from heat.

If you call up Horizon and tell them this story they might send you a new motor and prop assembly. Mind you, I said 'might'.

......Mike
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 01:31 PM
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Sorry to hear of your Radian's demise. Fortunatly you are backed by some of the best ever customer & product support out there.

Call this number (your hobby shop owner will love you),(877) 504-0233 and tell them your story. I would ask for everything that you feel needs replacing, perhaps the whole plane. If you want to do your own work, I would ask for a new ESC, motor, prop combo at least. Q: did your plane not come woth a Parkzone LiPo charger? You might of charged the 3 cell as a 4 cell. This can happen with the cheaper chargers that can't see the seperate cell voltages, and due to a charger malfuction as well. This specific issue might cause you to loose all of your warrenty-

You're in good hands with Horizon Hobby (Parkzone) they are open now until 7pm CST. Tell your story and let them enjoy when they tell you about what their going to do for you. Be nice, at least at first! I'm sure that they will send you what you require.
here is their support website http://www.horizonhobby.com/Support/


Here's to much, much more happy flying,
Doug



http://www.horizonhobby.com/Support/
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melmoth View Post
The battery I'm using is a Multiplex 2A 3S 12C, the ESC is the default 30A from Parkzone, the receiver is the 6200 from Spektrum. After the 4 flights, I still had 11.1V on the battery: this sounds strange to me, shouldn't it be lower?
I'm surprised it's that low. I run a 1050mah 3S 40C Rhino in mine and I get 5 or 6 climbs to 400 ft or more and still have like 11.6 on the battery after 1/2 hour in the air.

That 2000mah 3S 12C is probably getting weak. And at 12C it's running pretty close to it's limit anyway.

......Mike
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 01:48 PM
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Thank you guys for the help.
Just to clarify: the plane was brand new, the battery was bran new (anf I made a typo, it was not 11.1 volt after the flight, it was 11.56). The prop adapter is not really slipping, I made sure it was tight. I was just loosing the propeller itself! But after I removed the propeller, and made sure the shaft was tightly secured, the motor still made that "scream" when going up with the rpm, and stopped turning. It smells like burned electronics, too!
I'm just wondering what could have happened...
And calling the support might be an issue, since I'm located in Italy...

Luca
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 02:14 PM
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Luca,

That "scream" is the motor loosing the timing with the ESC, it's the switching frequency and often indicates a problem with the motor and/or the ESC. This is why I recommended that you replace the ESC, and for sure the smoked motor.

Why did the combo fail? Could of been the motor or the ESC. One thing for sure is that the motor is smoked. Your battery sounds fine. I would switch out the combo, and request for new parts at least from the factory. Whatever else that broke due to this failure in addition. They want you to be happy and certinally from what you have stated here, you should be "made right". You could email them too.

MS in NY is correct also in always inspecting the fasteners for correct tightness, especially with a new plane, after every flight and then after a few flights, you can only then know when these points of maintenance actually require inspection, but they will in time.

Located in Italia; can you contact a local hobby shop that sells anything that Horizon Hobby makes?

Best,
Doug
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 02:58 PM
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Doug,
I will try for sure to contact the hobby shop where I purchased the Radian, but I know they will tell it's my fault and I have to replace the motor etc.
The email of the support at HH is dead, so it's of no use.

I'm open to suggestion on a replacement motor and esc, I'm pretty sure in the end I will have to pay for them so better be prepared

Luca
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 07:51 PM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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Luca,

You motor sounds like it has some shorted windings, normally the only cure for that would be to replace or rewind the motor.

HH is not considerate enough or smart enough to tell us how much that motor weighs, or how many watts of power it is rated at but we do know it is a 970 Kv motor.

If you weigh your motor I suspect it will be about 100 grams in weight.

Average quality motor will produce about 3 Watts of continuous power for each gram of motor weight. So a 100 gram motor would be a motor that is rated at about 300 Watt motor for it's continuous or efficiency rating.

So if you buy a typical all metal motor of similar weight and Kv rating you will have a better motor and at a much lower cost. The HH plastic motors are simply not a very good motor and not a very good buy either.

Note: I just read in the Radian Pro thread that they did not use the plastic based motor that was used on the Radian in the Pro, it has an all metal motor. So any comments I made about plastic motors are not applicable to the Pro model. Let the record stand corrected!

Here is a mount for sale that shows how the motors are fitted and also lists some candidate motors:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1456977

You don't really need that mount although it is a nicely made item. If your motor uses the standard 25mm x 19mm mounting hole pattern, that is the common pattern that is used on most of the 35xx class motors. If you need a reinforcement you can usually shorten the arms on the supplied "X" type mount and use that in place of the mount that is being sold above.

The 35xx motors mentioned at that link are all about 135 gram motors with 1100 or so Kv ratings. If your motor is lighter you should be able to move the battery back a little to get the CG right. Or you might have to add a little weight behind the wing. It really all comes down to what your stock motor's weight is.

Or you can look for a lighter motor of the right Kv.

I would also abandon the plastic folding propeller that is supplied with the Radian and go with a combination collet type folding prop adapter and spinner assembly and a better set of folding prop blades like the Aeronaut or Graupner CAM blades in 10 x 8 or 11 x 6 size.

I read a recent account from someone that replaced the stock Radian prop with a Aeronaut or Graupner 11 x 6 folding prop and is finding his stock motor produces about 210 Watts with that prop. The stock battery you have is rated for 20C continuous/30C burst so it would support motors drawing up around 20A or so for typical climb durations.

I don't have a Radian or a Radian Pro and am no talking from experience, just making a recommendation.

Jack
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Old Sep 25, 2011, 03:47 AM
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Jackerbes,
your suggestions are very useful: I'm getting a better overall picture.
WRT the motor weight: I cannot move the battery back any further (because of its dimensions), so I will need to find a motor of roughly the same weight of the original.
I get a brushless outrunner of 960kv should go, right? I need to find something on some European dealer, because shipping from outside the European country to Italy is always a shot in the dark... I've found something interesting on Giantcod, but I'm open to any other suggestion.

What I'd like to know is if the motor got burned by the battery, the esc, or the propeller's vibrations... If the problem is in the ESC, I need to replace it as well. Same applies if the problem is the battery. Honestly: 10 minutes of life is really a poor performance.

Luca
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Old Sep 25, 2011, 07:41 AM
Jack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melmoth View Post
Jackerbes,
your suggestions are very useful: I'm getting a better overall picture.
WRT the motor weight: I cannot move the battery back any further (because of its dimensions), so I will need to find a motor of roughly the same weight of the original.
If the motor is, for example, 20 grams heavier sometimes you can add 20 grams of weight to the battery pack with a larger battery or simply by taping weight to your battery pack. The ideal situation for a glider is to have as much mass as possible located directly below and centered on the CG point. If you can do that, then you can add weight for flying in higher winds and remove it when winds are light without changing the CG. The added weight improves the penetration into the higher winds and the stability of the flight..

Quote:
I get a brushless outrunner of 960kv should go, right? I need to find something on some European dealer, because shipping from outside the European country to Italy is always a shot in the dark... I've found something interesting on Giantcod, but I'm open to any other suggestion.
The 960 Kv is about right, it does not have to be exactly that. The prop size, battery voltage, and desired RPM is what really determines the Kv needed. If you look at the attached figure it shows the approximate RPM ranges and power levels for various sizes of their CAM folding props. For the 11 x 6 it looks like you would want to have a max RPM of about 9,500 RPM at 275 Watts.

To estimate your RPM at maximum continuous power use 80% of the no load RPM. A 960 Kv motor on at 12.4V would have a no load RPM of about 11,904 (12.4V x 960 RPM/V) and 80% of that under load would give you a prop RPM of 9.523 (11904 x .80).

Quote:
What I'd like to know is if the motor got burned by the battery, the esc, or the propeller's vibrations... If the problem is in the ESC, I need to replace it as well. Same applies if the problem is the battery. Honestly: 10 minutes of life is really a poor performance.

Luca
You said that the motor smoked and that "..some of the inner spires of the motor are burnished..." so I take that to say that the windings and/or magnets are damaged. If that was an all metal motor it might be worth the effort to repair it and rewind it. But the HH motors are part plastic (Correction - The Radian Pro motor is not part plastic, it is all metal) and I would not waste my time on rebuilding one. I don't rewind motors because it saves me money, I do it because it gives me better motors and I enjoy doing it. I am retired and have the time too. Here is an example of what you can do for yourself if you think you would enjoy doing it:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1457682

Jack
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Old Sep 25, 2011, 01:19 PM
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Here is an example of what you can do for yourself if you think you would enjoy doing it
Jack, congratulations on your work, I always found very interesting working with electric motors (I've been an avid slot-car enthusiast when I was young). Unfortunately I don't have enough experience/know-how to make similar job.
I can say the motor I'm using doesn't seem a plastic motor, though. Maybe you are referring to the inner part.
What I'm concerned of is why the motor died. I need to know if I have to replace the ESC or not, otherwise I will burn another motor...

Luca
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Old Sep 25, 2011, 01:49 PM
Jack
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I just got a dead motor and gave it a try. It is not that technical really but you need to pay some attention to the details. It is a wonderful thing once you get going on it because the motors are better and also you can fine tune the Kv to be a best match to one specific prop.

If you have another motor around, that is the best way to test the ESC. Or maybe you can borrow one?

If the ESC does not arm itself normally (the tones that count the cells and then signal arming) I wouldn't open the throttle until it does. If it does arm itself normally, just open it one or two clicks and shut it immediately. If the test motor runs normally you can run it a little more and check for heating. Brief periods to full throttle are OK.

Motors draw very little current with no prop on them, maybe 1A or 2A or so, so they will not get very warm. So if the known to be good motor gets warm or hot or even smells like it is getting hot (that burning electronics smell) stop immediately so you don't damage the ESC or the motor more.

If the ESC is bad and you give it too much throttle for too long it might not be good for the good motor.

You can also check out the motors with a multimeter and some other common tools, here is a thread that explains how to do that:

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35216

The motor rewinding is not extremely technical and you can get a lot of help on the Electric Motor Design and Construction [URL="http://www.rcgroups.com/electric-motor-design-and-construction-361/"] forum here.

The first generation Radians had a motor that had a plastic base on it, the non-rotating part of the motor. They used to develop cracks and weren't considered particularly good motors by anyone that had used any of the mother all metal motors. And you could buy two or three arguably better motors for the price of the stock motor from HH.

I have not studied the RP closely, maybe it has gone to a better motor? (Note: The Radian Pro does have an all metal motor)

I keep thinking I might buy a Radian...

Jack
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Old Sep 26, 2011, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jackerbes View Post
I keep thinking I might buy a Radian...

Jack
Well, you should, definitely! I found it really rewarding, and pretty easy as well. At least since it lasted

I can confirm the motor is full metal. Unfortunately I don't have the chance to test the esc with another motor, due to the lack ot the latter. But it is making the three beeps (3S) and the confirmation tone, so it could be ok.

I'm trying to figure out which motor should I use as an alternative, but honestly I'm going around making calculations without coming to an end

At the moment it seems this one could fit, if I'm not mistaken...

Luca
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Old Sep 26, 2011, 02:38 PM
Jack
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I have been reading one of the Radian Pro threads, there has been a lot of discussion about motors and problems with motors there. Apparently some RP's were shipped with motors that did not have enough power.

The motor that has the problem is the top motor shown in the images on this post:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=580

It looks like the "bad" motors drew about 13A with the stock prop and the "good" motors drew about 16A to 18A. The symptom of the bad motor is that the plane does not have a very good climb rate whereas with the good motor it will climb pretty well.

A secondary issue seems to be that people that are replacing the stock props with Graupner 11 x 8 or 10 x 6 prop are getting much improved power outputs and climb performance. So some suspect that there are some problems with the stock props too.

But I have only read about 1/3rd of the thread, I don't know how the story is going to finish up on all of this...

But if you compare the climb performance of a Radian Pro to the Radian (both are supposed to have the same power system according to HH) the Radian outperforms the Radian Pro because of it's lighter weight and also because, in many cases, the Radian motors produce more power than the Radian Pro with the same prop.

And also, the Radian Pro may be having some issues with both motors and props. So it is really a mess at this point as far as deciding what the problems are.

Do you have any images of the damage on your motor? And the motor itself? If so, you might want to post those to that thread, explain what happened, and see if there have been any similar instances. If nothing else, it will get your problem into a global discussion that has the HH people dropping and getting involved in the discussion occasionally..

There was one instance there where someone reported a problem with the prop adapter (the hex shaped part that slides over the shaft and is held on by a grub screw) loosening on the motor's shaft. I wonder if something like that happened to you or contributed to what happened to you.

As far as the motor you posted the like to, I think that would be too small. That is called a "2810" motor because that is the dimensions of the stator inside the motor. The outside dimensions are more like 38 x 28 mm and it weighs 86 grams.

With all the discussion of motors over there, I still have not seen where anyone has said how much the stock motor weighs. Maybe you can take yours to the post office or meat market and get it weighed? Just the motor, without the prop or prop mounting hardware?

I think you want a motor that is more like this one:

http://www.giantcod.co.uk/xyh3536-10...-p-405124.html

That motor is named for it's external dimensions, 35mm x 36mm and it weighs 110 grams. It has a larger stator in it than the 2810 and will get you up into the 200 to 250 Watt range for power. The 2810 will not do that, it will be more down around the 175 to 200 Watt range.

All of this is complicated but I think the power system's that everyone likes the best are the ones that are up around 250 Watts and are using 11 x 8 Graupner folding props. It is not about being power crazed, it is about getting the level of performance that everyone seems to prefer.

Jack
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Old May 04, 2014, 01:22 PM
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Burned Radian motor or ESC?

Hi all,

This is in reply to the original message that describes the apparently burned up motor conditions. After reading, I'd like to mention I think I'm experiencing an identical set of symptoms, to a Tee.

I bought my Radian RTF on 4/21/2014, it came with a motor that's described as a "Bad version 12.5A (from http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=580), the topmost pictured motor. All Metal.

Right now, If a little throttle is applied, the motor starts OK, feels good, etc., but, as I increase throttle, to say, past 10%, the motor makes a high pitched whine/squeal and stops completely. The sound can be described as eerie, like a banshee. It sounds ALMOST like it could be a harmonic vibration, but it's not. It sounds like it COULD be the bearings--but it's not.

If it were either a harmonic or bearing condition, the sound would have to stop when the shaft/prop come to a complete stop, right? Mine doesn't. The tone varies though, but when full stopped and still sounding off, I'm guessing it has to be the electronics--either a buzzer/piezo or similar in the motor itself.

The radian had always initially produced three tones at power up, followed by a couple of additional tones within a dozen seconds or so. At the sounding of the first three tones, I would have elevator and rudder control, but not throttle. Not until the second set of tones would I get ability to turn on the throttle. Sometimes, the second set of tones takes longer before they're produced, which in some cases seemed like FOREVER (only an exaggeration). I was getting the impression that some how, the motor/esc had some sort of safety mechanism that didn't allow the motor to activate, if say, maybe, until it was 'safe'. I know, that doesn't make much sense, I mean, how can it know when it's safe? Maybe Motion or Stability?

Anyways, back to the motor. Yes, there were small plumes of smoke coming from the back end, tiny, but noticeable. There was also a distinct smell of burnt electronics or windings. Through the rear vent holes, I can see three coils that are tarnished/blackened. I've disassembled the motor, cleaned up the edges, wiped away 'soot' etc, and blew it out with a compressor. I cleaned it thoroughly, and lightly sanded the outside edges of the 'rotor' (not the housing side that has the magnets). I could see NO marring, or damage otherwise, and the bearing were still smooth as silk, no wobble or play.

With NO prop/spinner, the motor can be taken to full throttle, about 1/2 the time. Even no load, sometimes the eerie tone would come, and the shaft stops. With the prop, it definitely still won't hold RPMs when going above 10%. A slow position, perhaps only the equivalent of a couple 'clicks' of the gimbal, is all it will sustain. While at the sustainable speed, it is smooth and sounds/performs like I'd expect it to. No wobbles, no squeals.

Hmmm, what else-- Ok, so, this is what I think was the point of change---where it previously worked fine, and thereafter does this banshee cry and stops--- I hand launched my 5th or 6th flight, after having had several fun small trim adjustment flights/fine tuning. The first few flights up till this one took place over 3-4 days. (way to cautious, probably, I know), but I'm from the old days where it took a couple of months to build up my balsa Sig Riser and Olympic II kit planes. Getting those trim flights and CG balancing, I've learned, are critical---if the plane can't handle a hand toss in the park and fly superbly, don't expect anything better from a real 'serious' flight, right?

On this 6th launching, which was with about 25% power, I wasn't expecting a bat out of hell launch, just enough to get say, 50 feet up, lay out a few turns and casually land. This was farthest from what happened. At about 20 feet up, perhaps already 50 feet out, elevator control failed--it becomes very apparent, with throttle applied, everyone seems to know that Radians nose UP hard, requiring minor down elevator to track straight. Well, after a couple of porpoising up/downs, from a semi responding elevator, the plane stalled on an upswing, about 35 feet high. WIth the stall, the nose drops nearly straight down, with no airspeed. I give it throttle, hoping to gain enough speed before hitting the ground, but with the elevator not responding, before I know it, I smack nose first into the ground, with likely 30-40% throttle going. The whole nose, from leading edge of the wing, snaps right off, with ESC, canopy (which lost a chunk), battery, strewn about within a few feet of each other. Like a twig, snap. Taking a look at the tail (which is still intact), I see the source of the elevator problems--the little thumbwheel that secures the control rod to the elevator control horn--gone, broke off right at where the threaded portion inserts into the 'collet'. The control rod really had no secure connection, only a brushing by friction ability to effect the elevator. Made sense. Was thinking at that moment, despite a reading that a few folks have reported their stock configuration worked just fine, but the rest of the world already knew these to be problematic, lesson learned.

Anyways, I'm totally down. I went back to the hobby shop, the guy there tells me there's no way (at least he's never witnessed it) that the motor could be making noise if not running. I suggest I'm certain, and he gives me a bit of that "Oh, Ok" look that you know he's thinking I'm totally saying whatever I want to try to get a freebie replacement or something. Humoring me, he continues to insist that I've ruined the bearings and that these motors aren't worth replacing bearings for. Wasn't getting anywhere with him, so politely thanked him as I purchased a set of the Dubro EZ connect for Park planes--that everyone swears by. Really? Ez? Wow, truly, these things were a pain in the neck to install--not as EZ as the stock units, but alas, everyone swears by them, right? I definitely don't see being able to remove the stab as quickly or conveniently as before, but that's not the main issue--they do look beefier and should keep the control surfaces connected better.

Alas, I'm rambling, apologies. But in recap, I'm still unsure of where my system has failed. Clearly, the connectors for the control surfaces, but in regard to the power plant? Is it the ESC or the motor? Or both? Maybe even the battery, according to what I interpret in some of the threads. Totally confused and discouraged and disgusted. Sure, I didn't take 3 months to build this Radian, so I can't be as heart broken as I was as a teen when I rekitted the RIser, the OlyII's and an Oly650. But I am.

I called HH support line yesterday, and listened to hold music for literally 1.5 hours. I finally succumbed to the frequent reminder that I can press 1 to leave a callback number. I notice that it's already past their closing time, so I hit 1. I'm asked for my phone number--I enter it--then click, disconnect. I don't think my call is registered (another analysis perhaps someday, I entered their call Q while they were still open (2:20pm Pacific Daylight), but when I pressed 1 to leave my number it was already past their end of day script and hung up just like happens when you call when they are closed). Limbo land.

I detail all of this, without good organization, someone will hopefully benefit and not feel like they're crazy. Oh, one lost closing thought. The motor supplied, as mentioned above and correlated with the link, appears to be the 12.5A 'Bad Motor'. FWIW, it looks very modern, feels good, and never disappointed when I did successfully run it. Surprised that my brand new radian rtf came with this motor that was described quite a while ago. Production runs shouldn't have this motor anywhere near being included if it's a bad one?

Bob in Santa Clara, CA.
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