HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Mar 20, 2012, 04:13 AM
Registered User
davereap's Avatar
Ashford. Kent. England
Joined Feb 2005
6,898 Posts
The Blue wonder should do the job fine..on 3 cells there is about 12-14oz thrust, so it would pull mine up just as well.... most times it will fly/cruise on half power ok.
.its looking good...

Danford1's idea to take a simple circle and "W" it has worked fine.. so its purely a matter of deciding what shape you like best.. both the heart and the pure circle are great..
Danford1 can name it as it was his brainwave... at the moment I have been calling it the "circle W"..sound like a ranch..lol

Maiden...no problems... the COG at 25% is too far forward, but I havnt found the spot quite yet.. I expect it to be 28-30 much like the other W's
My predictions on its flight were pretty good. Its faster than the bigger heart shape in its cruise.. the roll rate was very high, it faster rolls than the heart, but remember it is a narrower model with less area.. the elevons performed much better than expected..
Slowing down high alpha is fine, not as slow as with the heart, the rudder is very effective and stability in the harrier and at hover is slightly better than with the heart..
Variations, comparisons to the heart shape, in cruise speed and roll rate are likely down to difference in wing loading because of the area difference.. I should have used a 27" circle to get the areas the same.. to better compare the two...
When Ive located the correct COG I am thinking I might be able to remove the UC and swap for a smaller motor/esc ..then move the battery fully forward to maintain the COG..this might get the weight down, and the wing loading..

circleW maiden.AVI (8 min 47 sec)
davereap is offline Find More Posts by davereap
Last edited by davereap; Mar 20, 2012 at 06:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Mar 20, 2012, 07:18 AM
Registered User
davereap's Avatar
Ashford. Kent. England
Joined Feb 2005
6,898 Posts
By replacing the motor/esc combo for a blue wonder , and by removing the UC I have lowered the wing loading to 3.5ozsqft the AUW is 11oz with a 500 battery..
The COG is now at 28% which is 6.75" back on a 24" dia..

flown again.. the 500 has to go right at the front of the model..and the COG Ive used here is just a fraction in front of the 28%... all you do is go inverted and keep adjusting the battery until it flies level hands off both upright and inverted..
The model will fly with the COG back a lot further but when inverted you get the nose climbing badly..
These W's all seem to be insensitive to COG and fly ok nose or tail heavy..

The lower wing loading is letting me fly much slower harriers and hover are good and stable in a breeze.. its no problem at all..
The only downside is no UC now and I do like touch and goes...

Conclusion.. this is fine and another keeper, just like the heart shape.. but I should have built it in 3mm using a 27" circle, then with the first power setup and UC it would have had the nice low wing loading as well...
.
the video freezes at 2.01 skip to 2.26 and it runs again
circleW 2nd flight.AVI (7 min 45 sec)
davereap is offline Find More Posts by davereap
Last edited by davereap; Mar 20, 2012 at 09:02 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 20, 2012, 08:49 AM
Innovator
danford1's Avatar
United States, MI, White Lake
Joined May 2011
356 Posts
Congrats Dave. You beat me.
I'll be flying mine in an hour and 10 minutes from now.
I was going to name it the W-O-1. Versions after it can be the W-O-1.1, W-O-1.2 etc.
The O can stand for a circle, or an Oval as it is more oval shaped when built up.
I'll try to get a video of my maiden. I'll be indoors flying around in circles...
I stole the landing gear off my 80% Scorpio which is stiffer and has wheels. I'm more confident it will ROG easily now.
My wing loading is 3.66oz/sq ft.
Cheerz.
Danford1
danford1 is offline Find More Posts by danford1
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 20, 2012, 09:12 AM
Registered User
davereap's Avatar
Ashford. Kent. England
Joined Feb 2005
6,898 Posts
yours will go fine..
I just measured my elevons deflection at 11/4" each way on down rates at 75%
The elevator ive been running at an up rate of 1 3/4"
Both are more than I need.. I also use 50% expo on aileron and elevator..
The rudder has as much deflection as I can get with no expo..
davereap is offline Find More Posts by davereap
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 20, 2012, 10:14 AM
Registered User
timatworksg's Avatar
Singapore, Singapore
Joined Oct 2011
505 Posts
Congrats on the maiden Dave! Flies really sweet!

Dan! Wonderful brainchild! I like the combination of the two! Nice build on yours....awaiting video! And yes, you should name her! I like the idea of the 'O' standing for the shape. It is unique! I like large rudders! LOL!

Thanks for the idea Dan! Started my mind thinking of a micro W-O using my UMX bits, 3mm depron/EPP & Kfm2....hmmm time to start sketching!
timatworksg is offline Find More Posts by timatworksg
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 20, 2012, 06:34 PM
Innovator
danford1's Avatar
United States, MI, White Lake
Joined May 2011
356 Posts
I too am thinking of another one. I would want to expand the outer panel shape so it more reassembles a circle when put together. Right now, it isn't a circle like the Nut Ball (which I really like flying by the way...). It is more oval shaped when viewed from above or below. I envisioned a round W shape, not an oval W shape.
I flew mine today indoors. It went well. It is just very hard to try to trim a plane when you are constantly flying in circles. I never have time to let go of the stick to trim ailerons and elevator. I tend to fly around and deal with the plane. Mine doesn't fly as slow as my 21" Nut Ball. They both have virtually the same wing loading of about 4 ounces (I was wrong before when I said 3.66). My Nut Ball has 4.04 and the W-O has 4.03.
It rolls very fast on high rates, was real touchy on high rates, so I flew on low rates. It still rolled fast. I tried a couple loops but it didn't loop. It went into a prop hang, 1/2 torque roll type funny looking maneuver. I either need more power or CG adjustment or both. I didn't try inverted yet. I just couldn't do much experimenting indoors.
Overall I'm happy but wished it flew slower. I know I need to play with the CG and get more stick time outside to better evaluate it.
So far so good though :-)
Hmmm, perhaps once dialed in I can call it WOW...
Danford1
PS Here is video of the maiden flight.
First flight of W-0-1, Dan's newest creation... (5 min 11 sec)
danford1 is offline Find More Posts by danford1
Last edited by danford1; Jul 16, 2012 at 02:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 21, 2012, 12:01 AM
Registered User
timatworksg's Avatar
Singapore, Singapore
Joined Oct 2011
505 Posts
Congrats Dan on a successful maiden of your creation!

I like the prop hang 1/2 loop , does make for some different and interesting flying especially indoors! Whats the AUW compared to your nutball?
Maybe a little more rearward COG for a more High-Angle of attack to drag things slower a little? Or add Airbrakes like F3P type planes?..

Those rolls are snappy! Wonder if the AUW currently makes the plane need to go a little faster compared to a lighter model, to pull it along. Let is know the feedback if you do get it to fly slower...I'm curious. I have a small hall downstairs near my home and planning the micro version, I make forgo the KF airfoils or just go Kf2.

Wish we had useable indoor venues here in Singapore. It's mostly open fields and halls which belong to community centers for sports. I should try to start something perhaps!

Anyhow, my 'W-wing' is painted and now needs the electronics and then a maiden. In between 4 builds...hehe, sidetracked as you build one, another inspiration comes along. But if there are no interruptions from Royalty (aka: 2 princesses and a Queen) I should be good to go tomorrow morning!

Till then, WOW!!
timatworksg is offline Find More Posts by timatworksg
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 21, 2012, 03:45 AM
Registered User
davereap's Avatar
Ashford. Kent. England
Joined Feb 2005
6,898 Posts
Dan .. you are forgetting the Nutball is also oval when viewed from above because it has the dihedral on each tip..
however theres nothing to lose by juggling the panel sizes or enlarging the tip sections to get the span up to the same size as the diameter.. Increasing the wing area will lower the wing loading, so thats all to the good
your 4ozsqft is ideal for outdoor flying.. slightly more weight is far better in any breeze

I would sugest getting the COG back to 28% ,or further if you like its not a problem going too far back..rather than the nutballs 25... and at 4oz sqft take it outside .. I could slow mine up no problem , just like my nutball..
A larger area will tend to lower the wing loading.. if you can reduce the loading by even 1/2ozsqft the speed will get even lower..
For indoors I was thinking 3mm ..no steps just a folded single layer, perhaps with bracing might be a lot better, keeping the weight right down..smaller motor etc..indoor flying wants wing loadings down between 2-3oz
davereap is offline Find More Posts by davereap
Last edited by davereap; Mar 21, 2012 at 05:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 21, 2012, 05:37 AM
Registered User
timatworksg's Avatar
Singapore, Singapore
Joined Oct 2011
505 Posts
My W-wing build

Anyway sorry to interject and draw the subject away from Dan's design.
Just posting an update on my W-wing build which is awaiting maiden. As you can see I couldn't help myself resist the temptation to add the little profile fuse
That coupled with the recent watching of Baa Baa Black Sheep season episodes, I guess it was too hard to not do it.

So here's my take on Dave's W-wing. AUW sans lipo is approx 250g-260g. 5mm Compressed Foam (our derivative of Depron here) and direct Kfm4 lamination. WS of 24" and depending on the Lipo I wish to use it would probably end up with a flight weight of approx 300g-310g depending. Gonna fly her outdoors with a 3s 450mah or 610mah depending. Gear on her is a Hextronic 24g 1300kv - 10A ESC - x3 9g servos - GWS 9050 prop. LE is sanded round for a more airfoiled shape including the tips of the 'W'. Left the Elevons white as is the underside for easier reference in against the trees and buildings where I fly.

It rained this evening so maiden is tomorrow morning. If all goes well I'll be printing out the insignias and other decor that make it look as F4U as possible.
Considered an EPP shaped into a cowl, maybe...hmmm. But for now, I just wanna maiden her. Lets see how it goes!

For now here she is sans stickers. Till then, more pics and vid will follow.
timatworksg is offline Find More Posts by timatworksg
Last edited by timatworksg; Mar 21, 2012 at 05:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 21, 2012, 05:51 AM
Registered User
davereap's Avatar
Ashford. Kent. England
Joined Feb 2005
6,898 Posts
It looks fine...
what area is it.. wing loading..fuz length
I size them by the length of the fuz rather than the span, so providing you stuck to the fuz to panel width ratio and kept the angles the same, I can work the numbers in sketchup to find its area etc..
It must be smaller than my 21" long version as I get a measured span of 28"... from sketchup a 24" span would be about 18 long

Can we have a top view to better judge the shape you are using..with the elevons at 90 degrees did you pull the curve from the hinge line or did you start your curve further forward?
At a quick glance it looks more like my kite version.. my kite was fine but I made it too large and overweight...33" span and about 16oz.
It flies ok but is too docile.. I am presently making a smaller 19" long version to take away on holiday..The kites are designed to fold up like FF foam.. you lash on the various cross braces when you get there, fixing with CA..then cut them off to refold when going home..
..
davereap is offline Find More Posts by davereap
Last edited by davereap; Mar 21, 2012 at 06:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 21, 2012, 07:52 AM
Registered User
timatworksg's Avatar
Singapore, Singapore
Joined Oct 2011
505 Posts
Hi Dave,

I didn't calculate the wing loading. But when I cut out the main shape I did stick with the ratio of 2:1 per panel as well as the angles for the hinge line. The Elevons are pretty much like your kite where the outer curve is in line with the curve on the side of the wing, so it flows as one curve. But the teardrop nearer the rudder is more pronounced. I'll grab a top shot so we can get a clearer picture.

Just did a quick measurement and yes it's my mistake to say WS:24". I was keeping in mind the width of the initial cut which was 24" and didn't take into consideration of the whole 'W' shape which shortens it
Too many straight wing builds...this 'W' wing is something new and worth trying out compared to the poly and Di- hedrals of previous builds.
I did stick with the same angles of the 'W'. What I ended up with is a WS:22" and length of 16" (this is minus the rudder and elevons which add about another 4" thereabouts to the full length.

Pretty much followed the same build methods for mounting the motor and rudder slotted through. It is a nice size for me, kinda like the Mini Heart size.

So.....would that work?
But pretty much awaiting the maiden tomorrow morn to finally confirm everything. Lemme know what you think and Thanks for the input and help!

Oh yeah...last thing! I am kinda getting interested in the kites...lol! Do you have any links/advice/plans for building the framework? Was looking at the prices of those on sale and building one with the available material is way cheaper! I like the folding ones...so any advice is greatly appreciated! Thanks again!
timatworksg is offline Find More Posts by timatworksg
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 21, 2012, 10:24 AM
Innovator
danford1's Avatar
United States, MI, White Lake
Joined May 2011
356 Posts
Nut Ball is heavier, but bigger.

My Nut Ball has a 21" fuse length :-) and has an AUW of 9.7 ounces.
My WOW has a 20" fuse length and an AUW of 8.8 ounces.

What I need to check/compare is the down and side thrust from model to model.
here are some pictures comparing my planes. I tried stacking them to show the differences, they are hard to distinguish in the picture.
I also added in my two Scorpios for comparison.

Here is some interesting news. The Nut Ball loops great but won't roll.
The WOW rolls but doesn't loop.
Keep in mind, I was indoors and couldn't do much experimenting with CG and multiple attempts. I can't wait for a calm day so I can go experiment outside.

Danford1
danford1 is offline Find More Posts by danford1
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 21, 2012, 06:48 PM
Got Foam?
mjcmyers's Avatar
United States, TN, Greeneville
Joined Sep 2011
280 Posts
Size recommendation?

Hey guys I just picked up a big motor that needs a new home and was wondering what size W wing you would recommend for the following motor?

Motor
C2836/12

KV(rpm/v)
750

Power(W)
240

Wire Winds
12

ESC(A)
20

Prop
11x8.5/11x10/12x6
mjcmyers is offline Find More Posts by mjcmyers
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 22, 2012, 01:39 AM
Registered User
davereap's Avatar
Ashford. Kent. England
Joined Feb 2005
6,898 Posts
Go back to page 1 post1.. The first W had a fuz at 26" long ..I flew it at 150W and it was ok.. your 240 W would liven it up a treat...
You should get a fairly low wing loading with lots of power available.. thats a good mix, and will go well..

W-O1 looping ..get the COG back to 28% and take it ouside to fly.. at your 4ozsqft it will go fine..
I gave mine a good lot of flying, and took it out yesterday in breezy conditions, it will fly nose up at zero speed, and handles the wind great..hovers and harriers are super
Looping ..it is not the tightest looping model ive flown, so perhaps an increase in the surface movement is needed or larger elevons...as its so insensitive to its COG moving that COG back doesnt help much with the loops..
It does seem to have plenty of elevator and will easily bring the nose up to harrier and hover, so why the larger loops?
I suspect it could be that the forces required to loop the model are flexing the elevons so reducing their effect.. I will have to try looping after loosing speed and see if that improves things.. if so then stiffer elevons should help
It could also be down to the models high stability, after all it flies upright or inverted pretty much hands off.. which is not a normal setup..
Normally if its nice and 'self' stable upright a model will drop its nose when you invert it.. the more its trimmed stable the more drop you tend to get...

side thrust and down thrust... on these W shapes there is neither side nor down thrust.. simply glue the motor mount tube or stick up in the center of the W and make sure its straight..
Nutballs are specified at 5 down and 3 right normally..

RC Kites..... http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=987191
my W kites are at the end of this thread....and there are plenty of others and lots of info on here..
These kites are made more for night flying, as their structure allows for the led lighting to be seen through the cloths used..
For daytime flying foam models are far cheaper..
However the W shape allows itself to be folded flat, so it is a good way to get a model into a suitcase for flying abroad..
Mine will go to Turkey this year... They are ideal for some late flying in the dark when it cools down a bit after we have finished our day relaxing in the sun..
davereap is offline Find More Posts by davereap
Last edited by davereap; Mar 22, 2012 at 02:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 22, 2012, 01:48 AM
Registered User
timatworksg's Avatar
Singapore, Singapore
Joined Oct 2011
505 Posts
W-wing Build Maiden!

Took her out on a blistering afternoon with a little crosswind blowing. Maiden went well, which means no crashes...

Had a GWS9050 powered by a 3s 610mah Rhino Lipo and just did some trims and flight checks. Overall she performed sweet and very docile. The slow and relaxed manner in which she flies is a great welcome for me in a small field. Great for a park flyer on a lazy day when all you wanna do is fly and not 3D! The 'W' shaped wings make for stability and she handled the winds pretty well! Into it, she would float like a kite and I could drop throttle and just up elevator to float her into it. Turn her around and she would track with a little speed downwind!
Loops were lopsided if you look at the video....but more due to the lack of a little more mechanical trim/adjustment and more power going into the loop. I did find her a little slow in power pumping, but that could be due to the wind factor coupled with the weight and the 1300kv motor. The motor will fly her great for cruising, but with thrust and her weight, a little slow in pumps. But that doesn't matter really as I intended her to be a slow docile flyer! She cruises at half throttle and a notch or two above to get a little more authority when needed.

Couple of things slugged her down for sure. One is a new type of control horn I put on. These where more taller in height compared to the ones I have been using mostly...and hence gave me sluggish throws and less authority! Yanked them out and put back my tried and trusted horns!! Rudder was slow but also due to the new horn which is gone as I type this! Hence you see the slow rolls on the vid!

She could do with a higher Kv motor and can definately handle more power. But I am pleased with the set up and the 1300kv, though slower to punch out, gives me great cruising and simple aerobatics for a nice relaxed fly around! I can launch her a little above mid throttle and cut back when in cruise mode.

It's raining pigs and cows now!! So when it stops, hopefully, I'm gonna slap on a 3s 710mah pack and give her a fly. That would help in a little more nose weight which she was lacking in the video. Also the change out of the horns...and I should have more authority. Another video will follow.

For now, here's another pic and the video.
Dave! Here's the top view so you have a better idea of how I cut mine up. 22" WS built and 16" length sans rudder extension. The rudder extends about 4" back. Ignore the little white patch near the Elevon hinge line...happens when you have spray paint on tape and peel off masking tape on that area too fast! arrrgh!
Also pardon the head bobbing in the video. I was taking a look at where my throttle was during flight. Now to wait for the wife to get home with the A4 sticker sheets so I can print out some insignia's for the plane to complete the F4U look...lol! Till then:

W-Wing build Maiden (5 min 10 sec)
timatworksg is offline Find More Posts by timatworksg
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion Rehabbing a Vintage UFO Jetpainter Classic Pattern Flying 70 Nov 25, 2011 05:08 PM
Discussion Is this Dirty Birdy or a UFO? Jetpainter Classic Pattern Flying 6 Sep 05, 2011 12:38 PM
Discussion Bulls? Breeding? -What is That place? guyg Aerial Photography 0 Sep 22, 2010 01:54 AM
Rant Great, now Ben Stein is breeding some more idiots... Accu157 Life, The Universe, and Politics 181 Apr 24, 2008 06:44 PM
Alert Caution: samotage is breeding samotage Slope 59 Aug 23, 2007 08:20 AM