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Old Sep 05, 2011, 03:04 PM
MrE
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E-Mirage with VLP and a few other changes

That was a dirty trick throwing out an odd ball abbreviation like that. Hope I can keep your attention long enough to help me come up with some good ideas

VLP is Very Low Power-loading.

Im wanting to build a Mirage with a power system that has a final weight no higher than the original design - maybe even a tad lower. Id love to end up in the low 30 oz range.

The main reason for this is I love soaring and trying to find light lift - BUT - I have 2 bad knees, a bad back and bad right shoulder. That makes hi-starts, winches and discus launching pretty difficult for me.

Getting old sucks!

Most power systems in sailplanes are capable of getting the model up in about the same time as using a hi-start or winch and they are designed to allow multiple climbs.

That means adding a significant amount of weight in motor and packs.

I dont want to add any extra weight if i can avoid it. My goal is to preserve the original thermaling capabilities and flying charactistics of the model as much as possible.

That means some trade-offs.

Im willing to give up steep, rapid climbs and multiple climbs. I dont mind if it takes 2 minutes of gentle circling to get to hi-start altitude and I dont mind recharging between flights although two climb outs with a slight reserve will be my target.

Im going to start out with a +- 70 watt setup (30-35 watts/pound) which should weigh under 3 ounces total. 2S 740 lipo, 27 gm Custom CDRom motor, Phoenix 10 esc.

The thing is - I have no experience in trying to fly a big model like a Mirage on such a low power loading. I think it will work ok, but I'll have to try it and see.

I am hoping someone has already tried it and can give some advice

First flights will be with a simple rubber band prop saver and non-folding prop until I get a feel for what I will need for the final set-up. Then I'll change over to an appropriate folder setup.

Which brings me to my next question - does anyone know of any really light weight folding prop setups? Size will likely be in the 10"-12" range.

Ive only used the Aeronaut Cam setups and was hoping for something less beefy - I dont need all that strength

Some other ideas Im going to try for weight savings else where.

1) Borrowing from DLG's - a pull-spring linkage setup for elevator, rudder.
2)Single spoiler servo mounted in the center of the wing with pull-springs again.

The next several ides I got from Riserflyer - Thanks again!

3)Thin carbon fiber tape on the TE after scalloping to help with strength. Im worried about the covering distorting the TE after scalloping plus hanger rash etc.
4)make up some 'balsa-ply' bulkheads instead of the ply supplied in the kit.
5)Ballast tubes that can be inserted from the front canopy.
6) removable tail surfaces. I may just do a removable elevator if i can think of a light enough way to do it.

Other than the things above, the wings will be stock with no extra strengthening added.

Oh - I may do carbon tube type wing joiners on the outer tips. Have to think about that some more - dont want them toooo strong.

I dont need all the strength for hi-start or winch launches or for contest landings, so I will skimp where I can.

Any advice, tips etc would be welcome
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Old Sep 05, 2011, 04:05 PM
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Hi E

I'am in the same boat with the bad legs etc so i have two E powered planes in the works a 60" & 144" both using a Mirage wing, my concern is that you might be too under powered to get to 500 ft without a thermal because the airspeed is so slow that you use up the batterys before you get there.
I too am concerned about the extra weight of the power system but with these very light floaters sometimes you need a bit of ballast to get them going, my Paragon was stock and it was 45 oz and flew pretty good in all weather with no extra weight ever.
So on my 60" i will have some extra power and just learn to fly it that way and my big one will be the same way as i like the idea of having the reserve power to get out of trouble if need be and save my plane's.
Just my thoughts on E birds after doing a lot of thinking about the same thing you are.

G Don
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Old Sep 05, 2011, 04:39 PM
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Im a little worried about being under powered too. On the other hand, Ive seen many setups that were in the 100 watt/pound range that still climbed like home sick angels!

I started restoring an old 2 meter glider for my grandson to learn on. He would much rather start off with a turbine F-16, but this is what he will get Its almost ready to go. I need to get him over to help with sanding, covering and other details so he feels like its "his".

I will play with it first to see just how low a power loading I can get away with.

Im also going to put the pull-spring controls on it and add a spoiler, so I'll get some practice before the Mirage starts
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Old Sep 05, 2011, 10:31 PM
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Flys great at 40.5 oz

Mr E:

I wouldn't get too concerned about weight. My Mirage weighs 40.5 oz with this power set up:

Speed control: Turnigy Plush 40, 33grams, $23. But since I only draw 21.1 amps max,(249 watts), a Turnigy Plush 30, 25grams, $12 would work fine.
(from Hobby City)

Motor: KDA22-20L with 10-6 Graupner CAM folder. Motor weighs 85gram, $14.
But you might get by with the less powerful KDA22-20M.
Note: I reversed the shaft on this motor for in-front-of-firewall mount and built a balsa shrould around the motor out of a balsa block.

battery: I am using Zippy 2200mha, 3s, 20c, 180gram, $9.
But I could easily use the Zippy 1800mha, 3s,20c, 152gram, $11.
Or, you could buy a high discharge 1200mha 3s battery

Spinner: 30mm dia./3mm shaft # FS30-3.0, $3.50.
Note: be sure and use thread locker on the two nuts holding blades.

Blades: 10-6 Graupner CAM folder. Buy from Esprit or Hobby Lobby.

Like I said, this draws 21.1amps max and climbs out very nicely.

So, I think you would not be unhappy with a weight between 35-40 oz.
Like yourself, I am addicted to light weight RES sailplanes. But this 3 meter Mirage does all I want at 40.5 oz.

By the way, I use two HS-55 servos for spoilers, mini servos.
The only mod is to the center wing. I applied one strip of carbon to bottom of spar(probably not required). I also wrapped the spar in select areas with kevlar thread.
Craig
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Old Sep 05, 2011, 11:28 PM
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Thanks for the feedback Craig. You're probably right about the weight.

Still, Id really like to see if I can get a no-penalty power system to work.

Your power system comes in at about 10 oz. That means your airframe came in close to 30 ounces. That sounds like a very good weight for the Mirage.

Did you do anything to lighten the structure? Light weight linkages or?

Ive been playing with MotoCalc and its predictions look promising. I tried it with the Sig Riser 100 as the model, lowered the weights to what Im expecting and it looks like I can get a 300+ foot/minute rate of climb with around 75-80 watts. That would be good enough for me I think.

I may need to increase the pack size some to get two full climbs with some reserve though.
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Old Sep 06, 2011, 07:03 AM
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Don't know what makes the biggest weight savings. But try to look on your problem this way.

I think most weight of the power system is in batteries (cca 180 gram using craigrrr's setup). When using speed control with BEC, this makes light to no issue.
Then comes motor - cca 85 gram. You can have it a bit lighter, but this will not save too much weight I think.
ESC - not too much effect going with some lighter one.
You can save some weight on servos (one standard servo = 45 grams, one micro servo = 20 grams).

Another point of view is weight distribution. Heavy nose (motor) will make you to add ballast to have CG right.

Sorry - lot of ideas but no advice
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Old Sep 06, 2011, 11:39 AM
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My glider version of the Mirage came out to 36 oz with 4 oz of lead in the nose. So I would think you should be able to stay under 36 oz with motor and battery. Also, if there is any wind I use several ounces of ballast and during TNT last year I had about 10 oz of ballast for 10-15 mph winds.

Alan
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Old Sep 06, 2011, 04:43 PM
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My pure glider Mirage (short kit) came in at 35 oz and I ballast to 39 or 41 oz when the wind gets up to ~10mph. It flies very well in this weight range. I use JR 368s for rudder and elevator (over kill, could use lighter servo), a 5 cell NiMH, about 1.5 oz of nose weight and two hs45s in the wing for spoilers. I also beefed up the center panel with selected hard balsa LE, spruce spar caps, with carbon on top and bottom, as well as shear webbing all the way through the center panel spars and half way out the tip panels, tapering in thickness as one moves out the wing, All stringers on center panel are spruce and the spar caps on the tips are spruce rather than hard balsa. I did the scalloping and used transparent light iron-on on the tips and worked hard to keep the tips light. The center panel is strong as a result and I used heavy transparent monocoat on the center panel to help ward off flutter on hard launches.

All of this tells me, with care, you can build an electric Mirage well below 40 oz, perhaps close to 35. It will fly well and you will enjoy it. Don't be afraid to strengthen the wing! I can push mine pretty hard on a winch and that is much more stressful than your motor climb.

I retained the ply tip joiners, but used 5 ply instead of 3 ply supplied and added a little carbon ribbon along the bottom/sides. You should let them break under duress. Much easier to replace the joiners than rebuilding a shattered wing.
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Old Sep 06, 2011, 11:27 PM
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Thanks for the encouragement guys.

I guess all that remains is to see just how low i can go with the power system and still be practical.

One thing that occurs to me - if I can get the packs located on the cg, then I could use batteries as ballast. Use small packs on no wind days and larger ones when its blowing. I will likely need longer run times in wind so I think I try to make that work.
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Old Sep 11, 2011, 02:49 AM
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I was given an old 2x6 that was in really rough shape. I decided it would be perfect for my grandson as a trainer - and to experiment with to see how low a power loading is practical.

I just got my Mirage kit but its going to take a week or two to build ( ), so the 2x6 will let me get a feel for what will work on the larger model.

It was in rough shape, so I stripped it down and made the following changes and up-grades.
removed the push rods and lead nose weight
re-built the rudder with about 20% larger area
removed excess gobs of epoxy, glue etc
gave the fuse a lite paint job instead of covering
added 2 spoilers in the wing with a single servo mounted in the center of the wing and pull-spring linkages.
added pull-spring linkages for rudder and elevator.

The new power system is a small Custom CDrom motor, Castle ICE lite 50 esc (for logging) and TP ProLite 2S 1320 pack.

The pack and speed controller are larger than I think I will need, but Im using them to start off so I have more flight time and logging.

All up weight is now 27 ounces.

Stock weight is normally 30 ounces and this one was about 33 to start, so Im ahead of the game already even with the added spoilers and larger tail and power system.

Once Im done logging I will switch to a Castle Phoenix 10 and save another ounce or so. If this works as I think it will, I will also be able to fly with even smaller packs for even lower all up weight - I hope.

For starters Im going to try props that will give me 30 watts and 45 watts peak. Thats with 9x5 and 10x5 props and is only pulling around 5- 7 amps peak.

Thats 17 watts per pound and 26 watts per pound. Well below what is normally considered the minimum power to fly.

I will be happy if I can climb to 300-400 feet in one to two minutes and do it at least two times with a little reserve for go arounds or returning up-wind.

We will see how it goes tomorrow on the maiden
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Old Sep 11, 2011, 12:41 PM
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Hey MrE,
I'm ignorant as to how "...pull-spring linkages for rudder and elevator..." work. Do you have a drawing, photo or link I can check out?
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Old Sep 11, 2011, 02:28 PM
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Thats a pretty slick trick the DLG guys use. I dont have any pics taken yet but if you do a search in the DLG section, there are lots of posts.

Basically, you use a single string ( I use spektra fishing line) running from the servo to the horn on the control surface. You have a spring in the control surface at the hinge line that pulls the surface one way while the servo pulls it the other way.

With elevator for example - you have the spring installed so that it constantly pulls the elevator in the UP direction. The horn and string are installed so that the servo pulls the surface DOWN. When the servo relaxes, the surface goes back up. If the string breaks, the elevator goes to full up. Thats better than no control at all though

It works surprisingly well. I was very doubtful when I first read about it. I was worried about the servo being under constant load and would the spring be strong enough to actually move the surface. if it was strong enough - would the servo be strong enough to over come the spring etc.

Then I tried it and was very pleased with the results. It works great! A side benefit is that you get excellent centering even with normal servos!

True, the servos are under constant load but its not that bad. Just adjust your battery consumption allowances to compensate.

I just got back from the maiden and all surfaces - spoilers, elevator and rudder - worked perfectly with the pull-spring setup.

I even did some fast steep dives testing CG and the spring on elevator had no trouble pulling the model out of the dives.

If you were very nose heavy it might be different, but with good cg locations the forces on our sail planes are not that large.

I need to crunch some numbers from the logger and altimeter, but Im very pleased with the results so far just based on eyeballing the climb rates.

I'll post some numerical results shortly.
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Old Sep 11, 2011, 02:30 PM
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By the way - the pull-spring setup would make hooking up and removing the linkages on the tail of your Mirage much easier than what you're doing now. I'll take some closeup shots of how I did it. It turned out much better than I was expecting
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Old Sep 11, 2011, 03:25 PM
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MrE - I have a Mirage that was built just after the kit first came on the market. I'm not sure when that was but the model is probably about 30 years old. The model is standard except for added spoilers - which I have decided are not necessary.

About a year ago I put a light weight 200 watt power plant in the model, and had to put the battery in the nose to get it to balance with no additional weight. In fact the battery, servos and receiver are as far forward as possible. The model has a steady but modest climb and is very enjoyable for nice day thermal flying. As it sits the model weighs 42 ounces and thermals beautifully at that weight.

I suspect that you will not be able to put the battery on the CG of your model unless you add extra nose weight to balance.
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Old Sep 11, 2011, 04:42 PM
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Herks - what are you using for linkages in the tail?

If you're using any type of push rods, then the pull-spring setup will save a bunch of tail weight. Every gram out of the tail is equal to about 5 grams in the nose.

My pull-spring setup is probably well under 1 gram total weight including the springs. So if your push rods weigh say an ounce total, thats equal to about 5 ounces of nose weight. If they weight 2 ounces, then that might equal as much as 10 ounces in the nose.

That should be enough for me to balance the way I want to - I hope

Worst case, I may have to extend the nose a tad to move the motor forward, but I hope not.

Im hoping that the weight savings in the tail will allow me to balance the way I want to.

Im still crunching numbers on the first flights, but it looks like somewhere around roughly 20 watts per pound is giving me over 300 ft per minute climb rate.

Thats better than I had hoped for!

It looks like with an 800 mahr packs I can fly full throttle for about 4 minutes with enough reserve to soar power off for about 1 hour.

That means a total climb on that pack of 1200+ feet. So 2 climbs to 600 feet or 3 climbs to 400 feet etc.

Im going to do some more testing this afternoon - I forgot to plug in the altimeter for the first few flights on the smaller props, so Im missing some data.
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Old Sep 11, 2011, 04:56 PM
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Here are some pics of the pull-spring setup.

well for some reason I cant seem to get pics to up-load.

I'll try again later - off to fly some more now.
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Old Sep 11, 2011, 05:42 PM
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MrE The push rods in this plane were originally balsa. When I did the current setup, I replaced them with 3/16 dia hollow pultruded Carbon fiber shafts. I did that because I damaged the balsa rods when I was removing them. They had worked fine for many years. I used the CF rods as replacements mainly just because I had them on hand.

I have used single string and pull pull setups over the years. Based on my experiences I don't care for either. Both work fine and my preference is more of a prejudice than for any good reason. probably mostly because they drift and are hard to maintain and adjust. If you used non stretching spectra or kevlar strings the single string system should work well for you on this model.

If you are having trouble uploading pictures, either they are not an acceptable format or, the file sizes are larger than what RCGroups allows.
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Old Sep 11, 2011, 07:49 PM
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Yeah, each option has its plus and minus features and i can certainly understand your prejudices - I have plenty of my own

In this case, the weight savings were a major design goal, so Im willing to put up with some trade offs to get there.

The way I have it setup, its easy to adjust the strings. As soon as I can get some pics loaded you can see how I did it. This setup also will lend its self to an easy removable tail structure - which I want to do on the Mirage.

Im going to guess your carbon tube linkages are probably in the 40 gram range for both of them including clevises, etc. Going with a pull-spring setup would let you remove perhaps as much as 150-200 grams or as much as 5 to 7 ounces from the nose area. Thats 5 to 7 ounces off the total weight of the model.

After flying the 2x6 and adjusting the CG, I now have the packs on the CG, so if I need balast I can just use larger packs. The down side trade-off to that is I have to remove the wing to get to them for charging.

I need to re-weigh it with the smaller packs and smaller esc to see how much lighter it is now and then crunch the new numbers with the smaller packs.

Based on how it feels in the air its looking very good to me so far.
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Old Sep 12, 2011, 01:55 AM
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The numbers are very encouraging!

With about 24 watts/pound I am getting about 468 feet/minute climb rate. The very nice part about this is the amp draw in the air is only about 5 amps!

What that means is that with a 4 ounce, 40 watt peak power system, I can climb to around 500 feet 5 or six times (or do 2 or 3 1000 ft climbs!) and still have plenty of reserve soaring time on these small packs.

The pitch speed also looks good for windy day up-wind penetration. Keeping the nose down gets the model moving along at a pretty good clip.

The Mirage is going to weigh a few ounces more than the 2x6 and will likely have more drag from the larger size. On the other hand, it will be more efficient at climbing, so Im thinking I can use the same power system and prop for maybe 50 watts peak and I'll be good to go
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Old Sep 12, 2011, 07:56 AM
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I just think of it as pre ballasted on a plane like a mirage that's what it is, that plane will only fly better with a little weight.I,m going to build one after the Crimson is done.
And yes getting old sucks, at least we can fly, my Electra has in the last year been a excellent teacher, an E mirage would be so cool.The Electra has to be flown up to a certain altitude to get the best results, a Mirage will fly on a mouse fart.I cant weight to order my kit.
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Old Sep 12, 2011, 03:03 PM
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I just picked up an Isthmus Models Mirage short kit from another RCGroups member. The laser cutting is beautiful. I'll be starting it later today or tomorrow.

Im a little surprised at the responses/lack of interest Im getting from most people on this idea of minimizing the power system weight.

Having a heavy power system is like ballast you cant remove. Im thinking of those dead calm or cloudy days when all you have are mouse farts. Wouldnt it be nice to at least have the option to soar at absolute minimum weights?

The Mirage is actually just a stepping stone towards my ultimate goal - a Bubble Dancer. The Bubble Dancer is one which does like to be light. This approach will really shine there.

As far as I can see its mostly positives going light.

Sure, it will take me an extra 45 seconds to get to ALES altitude, but when I get there I'll be a lot lighter.

If I did want to compete in an ALES contest, this power system can easily put out twice the power Im getting now with out being stressed and all I have to do is change the prop. Same weight twice the power. I could easily get at least close to ALES altitudes in 30 seconds and still be several ounces lighter than the competition when I get there.

Plus all the components are cheaper and smaller, which makes it an easier fit into small fuses.

Another plus is lower weight at the nose and tail which will make for better yaw response and better thermal turning.

I really dont see any down side unless you're so impatient that an extra few seconds of climbing is just toooo slow

Well, there is one other downside - if you set it up to have the packs on the CG it makes for more trouble to change/charge packs.

Im going to see if I can work something out on the Mirage. Maybe move a former a bit to allow the packs to slide in from the front or back. They are small enough to make that work I think.
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Old Sep 12, 2011, 03:24 PM
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MrE

This ancient Mirage of mine has had several lifetimes.

In one of it's earlier setups I had a rather heavy high power German motor with a big battery pack. The model weighed about 5 pounds and it flew great. It had a very impressive climb and the glide was very flat. It would even work a thermal well.

Because of the size of the battery pack, I had it installed in a gondola that was attached to the bottom of the fuselage under the CG.

If you want to be able to change and charge multiple packs on your model, you might want to consider something similar - though obviously very much smaller and lighter
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Old Sep 12, 2011, 04:40 PM
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Thats a real testament to the quality of the Mirage. Makes me even happier Im building one
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Old Sep 13, 2011, 08:58 PM
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Hi E

This is my scratch E bird built in 85' that has a 100" mirage wing and open sticks on the rear fuse to make it light, all we had were Astro motors that were on the heavy side & heavy batterys too.
The AUW is 43 oz and with todays power set ups i could take a ton of weight out , being the motor was so heavy i had to build a short nose too so if i put a new motor in it i could make a new longer nose and that would look a lot better.
Thought you would like to see the 4 panel poly wing set up as i have always liked this look over a 3 panel.

G Don
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 12:26 AM
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Thanks for posting those shots! I agree, I like that wing poly set up better.

Im also liking your stick built fuse. I may have to try that myself!
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 12:56 AM
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Hi E

When i joined the glider club in 80' Ed Slobod was a member and so was Blane Rawdon so needless to say it was talent city for glider design and also Dick Odle the R08 guy, the first day at the field there was 5 or 6 Paragons so i got a kit and started in the build.

To me Ed just hit the poly angles right on the money so each of my scratch planes have had the same poly wing angles of 4 and 11 on the tips for each side as it gives the planes a very gracefull look over a flat center wing.

G Don
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Old Sep 16, 2011, 08:08 PM
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Beautiful plane, great to see another old one,that one should probably fly again to.
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Old Sep 16, 2011, 09:53 PM
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Hi Doc

Thanks for the kind words on my E bird, i have a few hicups in my get along and if i can over come them it will sure be flying again most likely with a new power package and a longer nose to balance the CG and have a nice light floater E ship.

With the 60" Woody roadster and this one at 100" and a motorized Paragon at 120" and the big 144" roadster i will have a neat bunch to pick from for any kind of day and weather, that is the game plan so i won't have to worry about pulling back a line with these wobbly old legs and enjoy some flying again after 22 yrs away from all the fun !!

G Don
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Old Sep 16, 2011, 10:42 PM
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Don, Thats a large part of my motivation as well

I have several more flights on the 2x6 with various props including several with some APC folders.

So far it looks like as little as 24 watts/pound will work just fine on light wind days. Up to maybe 5 mph or so.

Once the wind comes up above say 7 mph and/or it gets turbulent then a little more power is necessary.

Yesterday and today it was a little blowy and rough so I propped up to about 32 watts/pound. Thats a much better level when its rough. Even with really bouncy air I was getting in the 500-600 ft/minute climb rate.

At that level, I can still get an easy 4 or 5 climbs on these 640 mahr packs although 3 or 4 would be better to allow for more reserve if you catch a long ride.

I think Im going to try this exact setup on the Mirage for starters. Its the type of model that you really dont want to fly in really rough air anyway.

Im now convinced that light weight power systems with Very Low Power loading is a viable option for e-soaring.
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Old Sep 17, 2011, 03:06 AM
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Hi E

This watts per lb stuff is all new to me and very hard to learn for a old dude like me, so for my E Paragon i sent a note to Nippon Dave who runs Hyperion and he gave me a list of what to use that was all made by the same company i think it might be a bit over powered but since i'am a racer guy from way back i figured a little more is better than not enough.

Maybe after flying it i could start to learn all the correct sizes for what i was building at least i would have a good starting point.
Your motor package sounds like a good fit for my E bird above then i could get rid of the heavy astro flight motor and have me a floater again for the light days here too!!

G Don
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Old Sep 20, 2011, 07:22 AM
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Don your e bird reminds me of the Cebola axe. Very cool I love the open structure.
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Old Sep 20, 2011, 04:38 PM
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Thanks Doc

Back in the day the club guys were building standard fuse's, so at times i have been a ' Wild and Crazy guy ' i thought i would try a different build & look and it turned out pretty light and cool looking kinda like my new Woody Roadster now that also has a different look to it and thats what is so cool about the scratch stuff just let her rip!!

Just cleaning a part of my bench to get back on the Woody, too many projects not enough time and pa'zazz

How is your Crimson coming along, Doc?

G Don
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Old Sep 20, 2011, 05:05 PM
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Well slow, and its not even the plane ,its life in general, but I'm planing a major jam session on it the shop needs to be cleaned and reorganized.I finally finished a job that was supposed to be done in June,luckily the customer is a good guy.I am going to try for an October maiden, only four months late,Johnny is having the same type of problems ,no time .Now I'm going to make time.I'm supposed to be retired, Yea right.I do love my wood planes ,I tried a couple of foamy's they just don't do it for me.This winter should be a good build session though I have to get projects completed so I can build a mirage.After all the scratch building, and foam I'm really looking forward to lazer cut parts , and some ones engineering other than my own.LOL.
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Old Sep 20, 2011, 10:43 PM
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Speaking of Mirages... I started the short kit Saturday. I have the center wing section almost done and one tip panel about 1/2 done. Still need to install the spoilers and sheet the center section and glass it plus some finish sanding. The tip panel need the shears added and the joiner box and end rib done.

The lazer cut parts do build fast!
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Old Sep 21, 2011, 12:17 AM
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Cool we have not seen a good mirage build in some time.I hope you will post pictures, that will generate lots of interest, and motivation for those of us that are going to build one..Can't wait.
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Old Sep 21, 2011, 01:15 AM
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Havent taken any pics so far. Havent wanted to take the time. Plus, I havent done anything non-stock so far.

Well, I am deviating from Marks (Isthmus Models) kits in one detail. Mark beefed up the shear webs for a stronger spar to make the plane stronger for winch launching. Im doing e-power so Im making the shear webs per the original plan. I am changing all the turbulators to spruse though. I just know I would be breaking them all the time if I didnt.

Im getting ready to do something a little different on the spoilers - single servo mounted in the wing in the center section driving two outboard spoilers via strings. I'll use springs like the DLG guys use (see above posts for pics) to keep the spoilers closed.

The spoilers will be 4 bays wide and go from the rear of the spar to the rear top turbulator. Each one is about 1.5" wide by 10.75" long. The single servo will be an HS-81.

My thinking on this is the single servo is about the same weight as 2 HS-55's with a little more total torque. Haveing one in the center saves me the weight of the extensions plus it moves a little more weight to the center.

Ive seen several examples of similar setups where the spoiler servo is mounted in the fuse ahead of the wing. I would rather plug in an extension than mess with the pull strings. Plus I need the area just ahead of the wing open so I can (hopefully) install my battery packs under the wing on the cg.

None of thats really new - just combining ideas from different places with some slight twists
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Old Sep 21, 2011, 01:42 AM
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Hi E & Doc

Just reading you post about using 1/8" spurce turb. spars i have had a few rough landings with my 100" E bird and never broke any of the balsa one's, the neat thing about a Mirage & Paragon is the way they turn on a dime and that is because both Blaine & Ed kept the tips very light in their design's so you might think about the stock balsa spar's at least in the tips.

If you look close you can see that i wrapped the joiner's & boxe's with polyester button thread just to keep them from splitting open with a cartwheel landing that can happen sometimes.

In 80' when i joined the S.F. V. Silent Flyers i lucked out because 3 famous kit builders were in the club, Blaine and his Mirage - Ed Slobod the Paragon and Dick Odle the RO8 and Bill Watson and his Goose so i had a neat group to mentor me into scratch building and designing your own planes just could not have been any better than that!!

G Don
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Old Sep 21, 2011, 02:37 AM
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I was more worried about breaking them while handling/installing/removing than in a crash.

Now you have me worried about tip weight again!

Originally I was thinking about using 1/8x3/16 balsa per a comment by Mark Drella in one of the old build threads. Then I got lazy and decided that was too much work to mod all those ribs.

Hmmmmm. Decisions, decisions....
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Old Sep 21, 2011, 07:16 AM
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Each week at the field Ed would be looking at his plane watching how it would turn etc looking for the sweet spot in his new design and it would take weeks & month's building new wings with a bit of change to get it right, then he could come out with a new kit but only after he was very happy the way the glider performed in all area's.

So light tips do matter a bunch, and when working with the Mirage wing you keep in mind of where your hands & fingers are and your balsa spar's will be fine!!

G Don
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Old Sep 21, 2011, 08:27 AM
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MrE - my ancient Mirage has balsa all the way, and they have not been a problem. They are not as fragile as you might imagine. The rib spacing gives them good support. Just choose the wood - straight grain and firm grade of balsa.
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Old Sep 21, 2011, 01:09 PM
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Ok guys, you talked me into it - balsa it is!
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Old Sep 21, 2011, 02:11 PM
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Alright E back with the program !!

G Don
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Old Sep 21, 2011, 05:00 PM
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Not too long ago, I electrified an ancient Monarch. That was a very popular dlg at one time. I went for something like, as I recall, 60 or 70 watts per pound, but I also used only a 6 inch prop, to minimize drag when folded. It climbed fine, though it wasn't really up to ALES altitude in 30 seconds. Depended a lot on which battery I was using, it turned out. Prop was a 6 inch Graupner, tweaked according to Mark Drela's instructions. Even though I was klutzy about it, it seemed to help some. Came out at 11 oz., which was within an ounce, I think, of what they used to weigh originally as pure hlg's.


I think you may not have to get too crazy about weight savings for the Mirage. At the time it was designed, a regular, standard size radio would have weighed 10 or 12 ounces! Now, that would be more like 2 or 3 ounces plus the flight battery, which used to be 4 ounces. So you've got some slack to play with.

If you're worried about nose weight, stretch the nose a couple of inches. Maybe do that part last after arranging all the equipment. Then the flight battery can be on the c.g.
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Old Sep 22, 2011, 03:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granada don View Post

In 80' when i joined the S.F. V. Silent Flyers i lucked out because 3 famous kit builders were in the club, Blaine and his Mirage - Ed Slobod the Paragon and Dick Odle the RO8....

G Don
Hi Don, impressed at the talent within the SFV Silent Flyers! Seeing the Paragon, Mirage and RO-8 fly, what are your observations as to how each of those light wing loaded gliders performed?
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Old Sep 22, 2011, 10:56 AM
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Hi Cer

Wow that's going back a bit, when i got in the club i saw mostly Paragons as i believe Ed was making more kits of them as i think he was first in about 75' then Blaine & Dick were a couple yrs later and i don't think they built as many kits and the newness had worn off by then.
Each Sunday there were 5 or 6 Paragons and that is what they recommened for a newbie to build for his trainer and fun flyer after you learned, so that is what i did too plus Ed just lived close so i would stop and ask him question's on the building and as i was building he would let me fly he plane to learn a bit then when mine was done i had a little more feel about the learning curve.
So to be honest i did not see a Mirage or RO8 fly too much comparred to all of the Paragons that were being flown each week plus my own for years, for a floater there is not a better plane you just have to learn not to get caught too far down wind other than that it is a great flying ship for light days - quick turning - etc- a great fun flyer for just plain old thermal stuff it is a real credit to Ed's design that guys are still building & flying them after 35 yrs since the kit came out.
I have one i framed up 25 yrs ago that will be a E bird too once i get my new 60" Wood E Roadster done as that is the reason i joined the forum to find out what kind of power package to use with all the new stuff i did not know what to buy, so after a yr of reading i was really confused so i sent Nippon Dave a note and asked him and he sent me a list of all Hyperion stuff now i will have a E hot rod Paragon with power to spare.
Just need to get building after a few projects are done in the shop.

G Don
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Old Sep 22, 2011, 10:57 PM
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Don, I thought that was a Mirage wing on the beauty you posted pics of above? How does it fly?

I was really hoping you would say the Mirage was the best, hands down
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Old Sep 22, 2011, 11:49 PM
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Hi E

I can't really compare because the E bird is quite heavy for a 100" plane, it is the same weight as my Paragon with 20" more wing and i never put ballast in the Paragon.

That is the reason i would like to put a new light power set up in that bird then i could compare the two, with the weight in the E one it moves along pretty well with that curved bottom wing.

Each one you build has the stuff you like and dislike, the con's are the E bird does not slow down enough for my tastes and the flat bottom winged Paragon is not good when down wind and trying to get it back to you.

Other than that both are fine birds.

G Don
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Old Sep 22, 2011, 11:56 PM
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Here's hoping I can give you some good test results on a super light 112" E-Mirage in a few weeks

On the build - Ive been futzing with the spoilers the last day and a half. Didnt like how they were working out so I took the whole mess out - TWICE - and started over.

I like how its working now FINALLY! Now I can get back to work on the other details and get ready to cover the center section. Just need to finish sheeting over the center and glass that part. Then a final sanding and its ready to cover. I'll post a couple of pics of the servo setup later.
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 03:26 PM
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Hi Cer

Wow that's going back a bit, when i got in the club i saw mostly Paragons as i believe Ed was making more kits of them as i think he was first in about 75' then Blaine & Dick were a couple yrs later and i don't think they built as many kits and the newness had worn off by then.
Each Sunday there were 5 or 6 Paragons and that is what they recommened for a newbie to build for his trainer and fun flyer after you learned, so that is what i did too plus Ed just lived close so i would stop and ask him question's on the building and as i was building he would let me fly he plane to learn a bit then when mine was done i had a little more feel about the learning curve.
So to be honest i did not see a Mirage or RO8 fly too much comparred to all of the Paragons that were being flown each week plus my own for years....

G Don
Don, thank you for the info. Sounds like a great club where the newbies learned the basics of flying with club member's gliders. And a floater such as the Paragon would have most of the newcomers hooked for life. With MrE, I had hoped for more observations on the Mirage. Had the Isthmus Models Mirage on my short list since I noticed the build thread on the Isthmus kit but there have been a few Hi-Flight/Dynaflite Mirage kits floating around (pardon the pun) so got ahold of one. Will miss the excellent laser cutting of the Isthmus kit, however.

MrE, will also be looking forward to seeing your E-Mirage.

BTW, Don, how's your fine feathered friend doing?
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Old Sep 23, 2011, 04:03 PM
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I went through a long back and forth process before I finally went with the Mirage. I looked at the Maurader, Paragon, Oly II and III, Sky Birds and several others. Ive been reading old build threads till Im cross eyed!

I finally settled on the Mirage for three main reasons.

1)It has the lowest wing loading of any of the group I looked at by a good bit. Its half the Maurader's weight and a good bit less than the Paragon and even the Oly's. At the same time, its capable of being balasted to almost double its base weight.
2)It also has a reputation for being able to penetrate in windy conditions - which many of the other 'gas bags' wont do well.
3)Isthmus Models kits have a great rep - which I can now attest to as well.

Price for the kit was also a factor. This last is partly due to my getting a deal on a short kit from a fellow RCGrouper, but the Isthmus kits are very reasonable.

If I had it to do over again, I would order the full kit from Isthmus. I spent a LOT more $$ and time buying balsa at the local hobby shops than it would have cost me for the full kit. I had to drive to 3 different ones to get all the stuff - and still didnt find everything at the quality I wanted or the exact sizes.
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 02:02 AM
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Bought a used E-Mirage

I bought a built and used Mirage from a person in Phoenix, AZ. It was complete except for receiver and batt. I bought it because I have a kit ready to go on the board, and wanted to see what I would do different. It was a great buy. It weighs 46.5 oz. and floats better than the Paragon's I have had in the distant past, and they were light weight.

I have purchased some of the power systems I plan to use. I have a Hyperion
2218-12 motor, 35 amp castle Phoenix ESC and a couple of Hitech 65MG servos for elevator and rudder. The motor will pull about 350 watts with an 11-6 AN prop. Should be plenty of power if I want to go to an ALES contest.

I am interested how you set up your spoiler system and would appreciate some photos. I can't agree in having the batt. on the CG. The plane I bought has that and it is a pain. Take the wing off to do anything. I plan to move the servos to the rear of the wing cord and have a cavity large enough to put any 3S pac I want under the new balsa canopy. Any photos of how modified
the motor mount would also be appreciated.
Thermals,
Dee
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 03:26 AM
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Hi Dee,

Sorry, Ive been lazy about taking and posting pics.

I decided to go 4 bays wide on the spoilers and they extend from the rear of the spar cap to the rear turbulator. Thats roughly 1 5/8" wide by 10 3/4" long each.

I made the blades by laminating two pieces of 1/16 balsa together with some scrap .5 oz fiberglass cloth in between using Tightbond. It makes for a somewhat stiffer spoiler blade than just a 1/8" piece at a slight weight penalty.

The pictures should explain everything else pretty well. If not, feel free to ask about any details. This is the same basic setup as I show in post 19 above including the same spring bending technique. The only difference is Im using small pieces of plastic tube to hold the spring ends instead of sticking them into the balsa.

That power system will easily get you to ALES levels if you stay at that total weight. Im hoping top get 'close enough' with a lot less. Closer to 100 watts peak. Im also hoping to be about a pound lighter than you
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 03:38 AM
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Hmmm. Cant get long winded in the picture description area!

The last two shots above show a cross piece I added that sits directly under the turbulator and holds the 90 bent plastic tubing to guide the string.
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 12:01 PM
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MrE -- Thanks for the photos and info, looks like the system should work.

Dee
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Old Sep 24, 2011, 04:14 PM
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Hi Cer

This new little guy is a strange one and would not let me touch him for 6 to 7 wks so i rubbed him through the cage bars then one day he was setting on the door dowel and i rubbed his head & neck and i think he right then figured out this loving stuff was not too bad after all, now he it the most tame one i have had yet and can rub his back - wings - tail. But one thing he is doing the last 2 wks is when riding on my shoulders and not ready to get off he clamps my fingernail between his beak and squezes it and boy does that hurt so i'am not sure how correct this new thing he is doing other than that he is pretty cool talking & singing in my ear while we are walking around the house & shop.
He is just 6 months old so he still has a lot of learning to do so i guess he is a keeper being he is a show bird he is a very pretty guy to look at being all cream colored with lemon pin feathers spotted all over and solid on his legs - tail and head and nice tall crest feathers and yellow cheek patch's.
His mutation is a ' Double Factor Dominate Yellow Cheek Pearled Lutino Cock ' that is sure a handfull for such a little guy, not sure of a name yet as my first guy for 16 yrs was called ' Wingnut ' so maybe be ' Wing Too ' for Wingnut # 2 or ' L.D.' for lemondrop
Have any ideas as i'am open for new names to mull over, thanks

G Don
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Old Sep 25, 2011, 04:59 PM
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Hi Don,
He definitely is a keeper! Talking as well as singing definitely adds to the pleasure of having him. Mine wanted to have her head scratched, bowing its head to let me know, but never was able to 'talk.' A couple of weeks ago my son and I visited the pet shop and there were a couple of cockatiels in the open-air enclosure and one of them was very happy to have his head rubbed. A couple of weeks later, they were gone, sold hopefully to owners that will treat them well.
Do not know how to stop yours from biting hard when you want to get him off your shoulder. Mine would gently nibble my finger.
A name? Thought I might find one from your interest in cars and motorcycles and looked at your DND website again (really impressed with your superdetailed model motorcycles and racecars you have available) for any hints. Well, did come up with a couple motorcycle names: Softail, and Knuckle Chopper.
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Old Sep 25, 2011, 08:51 PM
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Hi Cer

I forgot to answer your post # 47 yes the E bird does use the Mirage wing but with 4 panels as i'am hooked on the Paragon wing look for 30 yrs. as Ed hit the poly angles right on the money.

Maybe i can take softail and turn it in to Yellowtail but still thinking about Wing too also, My first guy was like a little person in feathers he was so sharp as i taught him to whistle when he heard a Harley as i live on a main street and the bikes are out all the time he would just go nuts when we were out front at the gate and see a pack of them riding by.
I had 4 bikes on my table covered up and i would tell him to go wake up his motorcycle so he would put his head under the cover and whistle at the bikes to wake them up , what a crack up he was and loved to get his pic taken setting on the bars if you go to the site and sitemap under bike details go to springer front end and you can see him on the evo chopper just setting there looking cool.
Too bad i can't get one like him again but this guy is more tame as i can pet him anywhere so it is just time i think and i'am not teaching him any of my whistles so he can sing , where wingnut copyed my sounds all the time and i like to hear this bird sing too and i got some trick DVD's and wan't to teach this guy to do some tricks like pushing a scooter - riding a bike etc already thinking about building a 3 wheel chopper trike for him to ride on a pedal it to.

Neat stuff these little guys !!

Thanks for the kind words on my bikes & cars.

G Don
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Old Sep 26, 2011, 03:15 PM
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Hi Don,
Went back to your website and saw the pix. Great looking bird and bike!
Noticed the pix of your sharp looking sailplane also; looks like the Graphite Goose you have mentioned in previous posts.
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Old Sep 26, 2011, 05:17 PM
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Hi Cer

The Graphite Goose was pretty trick in the day but today its all different, the one thing that i had not thought about too much was the 7 lbs and i was used to a 3 lb floater and boy that was a shock because it just takes off and boggies and i had to put some back trim in her to slow her down so there is no lurking around its go to point's a - b - c and if now bumps set her down.
So it is kind of a white knuckler to fly compared to my Paragon and others so i have the 144" Wood E Roadster light floater to build to take over and put the Goose out to pasture one day.

Wingnut sure liked to set on the bikes for show time , man he is surely missed with his very cool ways.

G Don
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Old Oct 02, 2011, 02:17 PM
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Ive been making progress. The wing panels are all finished building and most of the sanding is done. Just some minor touch-ups to do on them and then cover.

The fuse sides are framed up and most of the bulkheads are in and part of the sheeting is done.

I also have the rudder and fin framed up. Going to start the stab and elevator today.

Im expecting to finish it later this week

I'll post a few more pics later showing some of the changes Ive made so far. Nothing too drastic.

Slightly larger rudder and fin.

I took the angle out of the elevator hinge line and will have full span elevators with slightly wider elevator portion but the same over all size.

Modified the former in front of the wing to allow batteries to pass through and Im using short carbon rods for the rubber band hold downs.

Im going to wait until the model is mostly built and covered before I decide on servo and motor placement to check balance.
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Old Oct 02, 2011, 04:50 PM
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Hi E

Sounds pretty neat looking forward to seeing your pics.

G Don
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Old Oct 05, 2011, 04:43 PM
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Hi E

That baby will do a quick inside loop with the amount of flap you have now, looking good.

G Don
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Old Oct 05, 2011, 08:25 PM
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Hey MrE,
Glad you started your Mirage before I started mine. I've already picked up a couple of good ideas from you.

Where did you find an aluminum T-nut?
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Old Oct 06, 2011, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
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Hey MrE,
Glad you started your Mirage before I started mine. I've already picked up a couple of good ideas from you.

Where did you find an aluminum T-nut?
They arent the traditional T-nuts. They are actually the "nut" portion of an aluminum screw post. Here is a link with a picture.

http://www.amazon.com/Pina-Zangaro-S...7957683&sr=1-8

I got them in the hardware section of my local Ace Hardware. Tacoma Screw would have them or most any decent hardware store. Look in the section where they have all the drawers full of odd ball hardware. They are not labeled with the thread size so you need to take a sample of the bolt you want to use to get the correct ones.

The barrel on these just barely fit in the width of the 1/4" balsa ruder stick. Then I had to add the 1/64 ply to get the strength back. I ground the sides of the round "T" off to stay within the width of the balsa stick. A tiny dab of epoxy holds it in place.

Note that some of the "nuts" have screwdriver slots and the threaded part does NOT go all the way through. If you look througn enough bins you will find the ones with the holes all the way through. I prefer those so you dont need to worry about bolt length so much.

Since I dont have to worry about winch loads, Im hoping the single nylon bolt will be enough holding power.
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Old Oct 10, 2011, 03:06 PM
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Granda Don,

Did you ever fly at Jones Field over on Topanga Canyon Blvd.?

I remember Jerry Krainok(sp?) and Dave Peltz flying a Grey Goose there along with a Sailaire. I believe they used them for some TOSS cross country contests in Taft also.

I learned to fly at Jones field in the late 70s. Dick Odle was a regular there also and bailed me out a few times. Joe Wurts was the young "kid" who was there all day long. I never progessed much above "average" and flew RES. Moved to Moorpark in 85 and flew with TOSS for a few years and flew in some SC2 contests. Retired and moved to NorCal in 1992.

Was flying EP gliders up here, but some health issues have made it not as much fun, so I have pretty much sold off everything.

Nice to see some of the old names I recognize from fun times.

MrE the EP Mirage sounds like fun project.
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Old Oct 10, 2011, 04:46 PM
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Boy all of you "mature" flyers are sure making me feel like I can fit right in.
Would be nice to hear some names.

Went out to the middle school today to test fly a recent Epower sailplane conversion. This is a 27 ounce two meter pulling about 70 watts at full power. Can you believe that Virginia Beach had the kids in school today. Just as I got there about 200 of them came out and started running around the field. I flew a little DLG model in the back corner of the field until they finally went back into the school; and then had a great flight with my sailplane. Nice day here today. MrE you will enjoy that mirage. -- Herk
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Old Oct 10, 2011, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by rud-elev View Post
Granda Don,

Did you ever fly at Jones Field over on Topanga Canyon Blvd.?

I remember Jerry Krainok(sp?) and Dave Peltz flying a Grey Goose there along with a Sailaire. I believe they used them for some TOSS cross country contests in Taft also.

I learned to fly at Jones field in the late 70s. Dick Odle was a regular there also and bailed me out a few times. Joe Wurts was the young "kid" who was there all day long. I never progessed much above "average" and flew RES. Moved to Moorpark in 85 and flew with TOSS for a few years and flew in some SC2 contests. Retired and moved to NorCal in 1992.

Was flying EP gliders up here, but some health issues have made it not as much fun, so I have pretty much sold off everything.

Nice to see some of the old names I recognize from fun times.

MrE the EP Mirage sounds like fun project.
Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by HerkS View Post
Boy all of you "mature" flyers are sure making me feel like I can fit right in.
Would be nice to hear some names.

Went out to the middle school today to test fly a recent Epower sailplane conversion. This is a 27 ounce two meter pulling about 70 watts at full power. Can you believe that Virginia Beach had the kids in school today. Just as I got there about 200 of them came out and started running around the field. I flew a little DLG model in the back corner of the field until they finally went back into the school; and then had a great flight with my sailplane. Nice day here today. MrE you will enjoy that mirage. -- Herk
Ah! Its nice to see another flyer with a low power glider setup!

I was just testing the motor/prop Im going to start with.

Its another CustomCDrom double outrunner. This one is a hotter wind than the one in the 2x6. Weight is 32 grams. Im using an APC 10x6 folder. Probably a Castle P-25 esc.

On 2S packs Im getting right at 82 watts full throttle, so I should have roughly 35-40 watts/pound to start off with.

Most of the "building" is done. Ive got sanding to do on the stab, rudder
and fuse plus mounting the servos and the nose block details, hatch hold down and a few dozen other minor details to finish up.

So far balance is looking good for having the packs on the CG without extending the nose, but that will have to wait for final covering to be sure.
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Old Oct 12, 2011, 02:31 PM
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Im getting close-er!

Wing and tail feathers are all done and covered

Whew! I hate covering second only to sanding!

Now to finish up the nose block area. Trying to decide what to do about a cowl. I may wait on that till after the maiden. There is supposed to be a hole in the rainy weather tomorrow so Im shooting to get 'close enough' by then
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Old Oct 12, 2011, 03:50 PM
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I decided to weigh everything to see where Im at.

Left tip = 53.5 gm
Right tip = 55.5 gm
center with servo = 235 gm
Joiners and tape = 17 gm

total = 361 gm or 12.7 oz for the complete wing.

Fuse and all other goodies including motor, battery rx etc = 382 gm

Tail feathers = 80 gm

grand total = 823 gm or 29 ounces

That does NOT include glassing and painting or covering the fuse.

Lets say another 2 ounces at a wild guess so I should end up around 31 ounces all up plus or minus.

Thats more than I was dreaming but still not bad. Im happy enough

Now back to the fuse final details.....
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Old Oct 12, 2011, 05:05 PM
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The all up weight of 31 oz. almost defies the advertised build weight of a pure glider, let alone an e-power. My calculations say wing loading is 4.88 oz./sq.ft.
Do you get about the same number, that is less than feather light. Can't wait for a flight report and photos,photos or a vid.
Thermals,
Dee
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Old Oct 12, 2011, 08:50 PM
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A lot of the weight savings comes from deleting things that are needed to allow the model to withstand a winch launch.

No beefed up spar - its bone stock per the original plan. The only thing I did was wrap the joiner boxes with some spectra fishing line. Not a lot of weight savings there but some.

The biggest single weight savings - other than the power system - is probably the push rods - Im using spectra line for those. So no threaded rods, clevises or push rods. That alone save an easy 2 ounces out of the tail - which eliminates the need for even more nose weight to balance the model. You get more than double or triple savings anytime you can lighten up the tail end.

Also - no tow hook or structural adds for it.

I also removed some cross bracing in the rear fuse and one former up front.

Im using rubber band hold down so no added weight in the wing or fuse for a bolt on system.

Plus carbon rods instead of steal for the hold downs.

I used Tight Bond III for almost all the gluing plus a little epoxy.

I also covered the wing tips and most of the tail feathers with UltraCote lite.

That stuff combined with modern micro servos and rx plus a very light weight power system all adds up.

There isnt a huge weight savings in any one place on the model - other than the power system.

The motor, esc and battery Im starting with come to 6.5 oz including prop and spinner.

If I go with the smaller pack I save an additional .5 oz.
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Old Oct 12, 2011, 08:54 PM
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Mr E it looks great, but that 4cell will take you to the moon.LOL.Please keep posting.
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Old Oct 12, 2011, 08:55 PM
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It occurs to me that if you deduct the power system weight you get a pure glider weight of 25.5 oz - which would be extremely lite for this model based on reports Ive seen.

Thats not completely fair though. I dont think you could build a pure glider version that light.

Even moving the battery pack all the way forward, you would need still likely need some nose weight to offset the loss of the motor up front. Then add back in tow hooks and some extra weight for the spar mods everyone does plus beef up the fuse again.

You would still see the weight savings from the push rod change, so maybe 3 to 4 ounces lighter? Im guessing
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Old Oct 12, 2011, 08:58 PM
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Mr E it looks great, but that 4cell will take you to the moon.LOL.Please keep posting.
LOL Either that or fly for a week on one charge
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Old Oct 13, 2011, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwood75 View Post
The all up weight of 31 oz. almost defies the advertised build weight of a pure glider, let alone an e-power. My calculations say wing loading is 4.88 oz./sq.ft.
Do you get about the same number, that is less than feather light. Can't wait for a flight report and photos,photos or a vid.
Thermals,
Dee
I didnt answer you completely before.

The plans I have show the wing area as 915 sq in and a stock weight of 33 ounces. That gives a wing loading of 5.19 oz/ft bone stock.

So, yes, if I stay at the low end and come in at 31 ounces that gives me 4.88 oz/ft.

Not too shabby at all
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Old Oct 13, 2011, 05:44 PM
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Hey MrE,
If you are willing and able to be at the next SASS meeting (Nov. 8 in Kirkland), a show and tell of your build would be a great presentation. Let me know and I'll set it up.
Loren
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Old Oct 13, 2011, 06:05 PM
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Wow. Thats a very nice compliment! Thank you! Id love to do that

As of now, I have nothing scheduled for that night, so Im free. Let me know what time and where.

I just did my first fully assembly of the entire bird. Dang thats a huge wing when its inside the house!

I got really excited when I first weighed it - I was at 29.3 ounces. Thats with the fuse glassed but not painted.

BUT, then I did a CG check and had to add 1.2 ounces in the nose to balance it at the forward CG point.

So, as it sits now I expect it to end up at 32 ounces once the fuse is painted.

After some flying, I hope to be able to remove some of that nose lead. I may also move the radio gear around to try to get stuff a little more forward and maybe even move the motor forward another 1/2".
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Old Oct 13, 2011, 09:36 PM
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It fly's!!!

WooHoo! It fly's!! pretty darn nice too

I managed to get it 'close enough' to do a test flight. It's not perfect, but Im still really happy.

On the first hand toss, trims felt pretty good, so I just made a nice easy wide circle and brought it back. On the next toss I gave it power and let it climb to about 100 feet. It wanted to pitch up radically with power even though I have a lot of down thrust built in. I programmed in some down elevator mix and that will work for now.

While it was up there I did a couple of shallow, power off dive tests and found it pulls out of even a shallow dive almost instantly. Either my CG is way forward or I have too much decollage. Probably some of both. I'll check the decollage later tonight and see where its at. Should have done that before flying it! Thats probably a major reason for the pitch-up with power.

My CG is about 1/4" behind the rear of the spar now. Im going to try it further back tomorrow.

As expected it wants to dive with spoiler deflection. I dialed in some elevator mix correction but need more.

As far as handling - I love it!

It turns on a dime and is very responsive without feeling at all twitchy.

And of course - it floats forever!

On the third launch I again went up to about 150 feet or so and just flew around the perimeter of the flying field. It was starting to get a little gusty - maybe 5 to 10 mph or so at the peaks then back to 2 or 3. So it was getting tossed around a little bit but not too bad.

After a couple of minutes I realized it wasn't coming down! Then it occurred to me maybe some of those bounces were lift indications, so I started circling when it looked like I should.

I stayed up for a solid 15 minutes going from 50 feet back to 100 then down and back again. Some of that time was spent in some ridge lift over some low trees in maybe 5 mph winds. It was awesome!!!!!!

Today was NOT a good day for lift either. The field was soaking wet and it was cool and there was a solid over cast on top of that.

Despite the items that need correction, I am absolutely pleased with how it flys.

Once I get it trimmed out and dialed in I'll put a Castle Ice esc and my Open Altimeter in and see what the clime rate is and inflight power usage.

The climb rate felt just a tad less than I was getting with the 2x6. It is adequate for days like today but I suspect Im going to want just a bit more oomph.

Here are a couple of cell phone pics of it all together - unpainted fuse and tape on the canopy and all
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Old Oct 13, 2011, 09:51 PM
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By the way - the removable tail feathers is sort of good and bad. I will likely get better at putting them on with practice but I could sure use an extra hand at several points in the assembly. I will probably leave the model assembled unless I really need the space.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 01:26 AM
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Just checked and Ive got about .5 to 1 deg of neg on the stab - depending on where I measure it. Thats not a lot so Im going to move the cg back first and see how that goes.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 11:14 AM
soaring guy
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Great looking plane!!! Sounds like the handling can be tuned without too much work. With the removable stab you can correct incidence problem (if there is one) fairly easily. A little breezy here in Mesa, AZ today so it is time to clean off the bench and start my Mirage build. I wont even try to reach your build weight, my target is 40 oz. Have a beater Mirage I'm flying at 46.5 oz. and it floats and handles great. Thanks for the info, photos and comments.
Thermals,
Dee
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 12:18 PM
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MrE,
Congratulations. Looks good.

Check for a PM from me regarding post #79.

Loren
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 01:16 PM
Herk
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And the all up flying weight came out at ?????
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 04:53 PM
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Hi E

Looking good in those colors, 2 yrs ago i joined the forum and saw all the new gliders and thought what happened to the planes as they do not look right!!

There is nothing like a 70's designed Woody glider and two of the best are a Mirage & Paragon

G Don
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 08:38 PM
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Thanks guys!

My wife saw it and said it looked like an Easter Egg! She wanted to know why I didnt use brown and orange since those are fall colors

Loren - I will e-mail you with some questions about details but Im good to go

Herks - the flying weight for the maiden yesterday with the added nose weight was 31.5 ounces. Thats with the fuse still unpainted and minus a cowling and a few other minor things I plan to add. Im guessing I will add another 1.5 ounces or so.

HOWEVER - I just got back from 2 hours of trimming flights today and it looks like all of that added nose weight - and more - needs to come out!

Take a look at my rudder after my last series of CG flights today. Thats a total of 8 quarters taped to the vertical fin or just over 1.5 ounces I added to get the CG back to where I like it.

Now the model has a nice gentle pull out from a moderate dive starting at a slow gliding speed.

It was really too blustery today to get things dialed in perfectly but I got in the ball park. Winds were from maybe 5 to probably 12 or 15 with a heavy over cast.

Im about to weight it as flown and get a good measurement of where I have it balanced now. Then Im going to download the ICE data and the altimeter data and get some rough numbers on climb rate.

I'll post more once Ive crunched some numbers.

Most of you are flying with your Mirage's with the CG waaaaay to far forward
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 08:41 PM
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By the way, it handled this amount of wind just fine at this weight although it was really too blustery to have much fun. the little lift there was was blowing by too fast. I would want it ballasted up if it was any higher though.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 09:33 PM
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Holly aft CG Batman!!!

Im having trouble believing my measurements but Im coming up with the CG for todays last flights at 4.5" behind the leading edge.

The wing center section total cord is only 9"!!!!

Even with the swept leading edge, thats still waaaaaay back.

The recommended starting point is 3 1/8 back and I started at 3.25" yesterday. I was at 3.5" back this morning and went back from there - 50 cents at a time.

Now Im wondering if I screwed something up.... I had all the parts assembled ( I didnt even take the wing apart after flying) and I had the battery pack in the same place and all 8 quarters were un-touched.

That was measured on my finger tips. Even so - I know my fingers aren't off THAT much. I think I better build a quick balancing jig to re-check that.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 09:40 PM
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Almost forgot - logger data shows I was only getting 49 watts peak in flight and averaging closer to 40 watts. Thats about 20 watts per pound. Much less than static. Part of that is due to these ooold TP packs Im using. They are going on 4 years old now. New packs would hold voltage much better.

Climb rates were a little lower than I was expecting but not bad at all for this low a power level. It looks like I was averaging about 350 ft/min with my best sustained rate at 450 ft/min.

So the Mirage does climb more efficiently than the 2x6.

At least thats not a wildly unexpected result!

I still cant get over that CG position......

Tomorrow Im going to try a larger prop which should pull more power and give better climb rates.

This rate is ok and would be fine on calmer days but Id like a little more for when its this windy - mostly for better penetration into the wind.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 10:23 PM
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Well, my ballancing jig shows I was actually 4 5/8" behind the leading edge with all 8 quarters in place. Just for fun I checked it with no quarters and I was at just a hair more than 3.25" back.

So my fingers were pretty close.

Still, thats is a very difficult number to believe..... even though I just finished flying it!
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 10:28 PM
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To get the cg that far back without all the change hanging off the tail, the main pack needs to go well behind the cg point.

That means I can shorten up the nose and may even need to move the servos back.

For now I think I will just cut off some of my nose block and move the rx further back and mount the packs on the cg and see how close that gets me.

I need to fly this thing on a calm day to verify my tests results too. Tomorrow and Sunday are looking like better days. maybe i can even get out early enough to get some dead calm flying in.

I'll post some logging graphs in a while.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 10:34 PM
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It occurs to me I may be approaching the trimming of this thing the wrong way.

This is my first large TD model in more than 30 years.

Im flying it and trimming it just like my DLG - with a fairly neutral but still positively stable CG.

The model seems to be responding like my DLG too. It turns on a dime, floats very well, is very responsive but not the least bit unstable. Pulls out of a shallow dive slowly but positively on a gentle curve. The stall is gentle and straight ahead. It handles turbulence well and lands easily pretty close to where I want it too.

Where am I off base?
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Old Oct 15, 2011, 03:08 AM
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If anyone is interested in this sort of detail number crunching stuff, here are some logger graphs from the ICE controller and the Open Altimeter.

These show that Im getting about 420 ft/min early in the pack and it drops to about 335 ft/min at the end.

It also shows how tired these packs really are. I just ordered some new Hyperion G3 packs that should give me a good bit more power.

One other thing thats pretty obvious is that the further away the plane fly's, the harder it is to hold the "correct" climb angle to maximize the altitude gain.

On many of the other graphs you can see where Im adjusting the climb angle and how it effects the rate of climb. Too bad I dont have any way to get instant feed back while Im climbing out. That would be very useful!!

There are some guys working on a vario add on for the Open Altimeter. have to see where that goes.
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Old Oct 15, 2011, 07:15 PM
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Just got back from flying with the next size up folder. I like this power level better. It was blustery again today - 7-12 mph so about all I did was hold the nose into the wind or fly ridge lift on the tree line.

Still, this is the EXACT glider Ive been wanting It handles just like my DLG (well, almost) - only bigger

It handles like a sports car, speeds up or slows down on command with a few clicks of trim, turns on a dime, can core the smallest thermal, is easy to land and most of all climbs on mouse farts. I love it!

I'll have new power level and climb rates later.

I dont understand how Im getting away with this but I've triple checked the CG and I'm now 4.5" back from the leading edge or exactly 50% of the center section cord.

This is after last nights work - cutting the motor mount back 1/2" and moving the rx and altimeter to the rear fuse behind the wing and putting the battery pack ON the CG.

There is no pitch instability and the model handles beautifully. Im very surprised but still jazzed
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Old Oct 15, 2011, 08:48 PM
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Hi E

Sounds like a great ship you have there, now you know why i wan't to build a 12 footer with that wing using a little larger cord.

I really like my Paragons but that flat bottom wing just stops in a breeze and i want what you have got there now a little more speed range then you have the best of both worlds.

Enjoy your new featherweight bird!!

G Don
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Old Oct 15, 2011, 09:44 PM
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Thanks Don

You and Riserflyer sound like you have the same goals in mind. He is working on a 140" version of the Mirage over the winter.

I was even day dreaming today along similar but less ambitious lines

I think I will order a wing kit from Isthmus and build the center section with flaps.

I was trying to think of easy ways to add another 6" - 8" to each end of the center section. Im pretty sure I could get away with that much extra span without having to beef up anything. Im sure it would fly fine on this fuse I already got since the rudder and elevator are already over sized a bit.

Im surprised no one has commented on the CG Im flying at. This is the internet. You're not supposed to be nice, polite guys. I was expecting to be told it was flat impossible, Im an idiot and/or Im making it up.

Are all you Mirage guys flying with the CG this far back and you're just not telling???
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Old Oct 15, 2011, 10:17 PM
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G Don: I was only going to 125% of stock size until I read your intent to go 144". Now, I'm going for 144". And FYI: although it looks close, the Mirage airfoil is not flat bottom.

MrE: My cg on stock Mirage is pretty far back although my distance from LE cannot be compared to yours with all the batteries and such. I am also contemplating a center section with flaps and will probably order adequate CF to make it happen. But first, the center section will be spoilers so I can get in the woody/RES competitions. I'll save the flaps to compete with Supras and such.

WOOD IS GOOD
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Old Oct 15, 2011, 11:59 PM
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If you get a chance without going to a lot of trouble, check where your Mirage is balanced. Im really curious about this.

I dont see how the batteries could have any effect on how a model flys with an aft CG - other than weight distribution.

Besides, I bet the lipo Im using doesnt weigh much more than the rx pack you're using now. The pack I have in there is 92 grams - 3.25 ounces. The packs Ive ordered will weigh about 74 grams or 2.6 ounces. Plus - my packs sit on the cg, so have no effect anyway.

Any other Mirage flyers out there know where their model is balanced?
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