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Old Dec 29, 2012, 06:21 AM
homo ludens modellisticus
Ron van Sommeren's Avatar
The Netherlands, GE, Nijmegen
Joined Feb 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Lucas View Post
... my Holländisch is not that good ...
Ab Bericht #419
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Starting at message #419
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Met vriendelijke groeten Ron
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Last edited by Ron van Sommeren; Dec 29, 2012 at 06:27 AM.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 10:46 AM
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Dekker's Avatar
Delft, Netherlands
Joined Jul 2001
233 Posts
For better understanding, I wrote this post for HeliFreak, but repost it here:

I recently wound two so called LRK/SPS motors as an experiment for someone.
Base is the Scorpion S-4020 stator.
The intention was to give both motors the same number of turns (14) with thickest possible wire, and giving them an n spec on both motors around 1000rpm/V.
Both motors are LRK/SPS wind but with a difference.

Motor 1:
This is a "regular" SPS, with a twist:
The teeth are wound alternately, as is common with this type of wind, but they are terminated DOUBLE DELTA. This means it will turn twice as fast as with normal delta termination.
This also means that 4 wires will exit the motor for each phase. The scheme:



Motor 2:
The wind starts off with a "normal" SPS, for example on the uneven teeth. These are done with 7 turns, using this scheme:



That makes partial motor A. After that the remaining even teeth are given the exact same wind, making partial motor B. So also in this motor there are now 14 wires in each slot.
Then both partial motors are terminated in delta and the wires are going outside SEPARATELY. This is important, since the partial motors are offset by 30 degrees and for this reason they cannot operate on one controller. So this wind MUST be operated with two controllers. That is why I gave the phase wires different colors to keep them apart.

In the end, both motors have 1.4mm wire and have equal fill percentage. Copper surface in each motor is 21,6mm^2.
Left is the first motor (double delta SPS), right motor 2 (the double SPS, parallel terminated):


Here the back side, they are lying the other way around by accident. So left is motor 2 and right is motor 1:
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 01:04 PM
Registered User
Germany, BY, Gräfelfing
Joined Jan 2003
436 Posts
Hi Ron, Dekker,
thank for sharing this wireoption .Will be intresting how it workes .I have done the same in star conection .
@Dekker,
do you have the possibility to drive one motor and have a look with a osziloscope at the other motor .Would be intresting how the back emf will look like .How many influence will induce into the other coils. Over all ,congrats for this great work Dekker.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 02:00 PM
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Delft, Netherlands
Joined Jul 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Lucas View Post
Hi Ron, Dekker,
thank for sharing this wireoption .Will be intresting how it workes .I have done the same in star conection .
@Dekker,
do you have the possibility to drive one motor and have a look with a osziloscope at the other motor .Would be intresting how the back emf will look like .How many influence will induce into the other coils. Over all ,congrats for this great work Dekker.
Hi Christian,
I had the idea recently to get a scope for exactly this kind of measurement: to see what back emf looks like in various winds/wire thickness/stator shapes. But I was afraid it would end up collecting dust.
So no scope.
But maybe you are good at convincing me it is essential equipment
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 04:15 PM
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Belgium, Flemish Region, Oosterzele
Joined Dec 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Lucas View Post
Hi Ron, Dekker,
thank for sharing this wireoption .
My DD 13 wind LRK motor was the smoothest running LRK I ever had. I'm curious how the "Double LRK with 2 controllers" will work. I've been wanting to do that for so long... I'm really happy with Dekker's work, making my "dream" of a 200A LRK direct driving a big prop come one step closer again...
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Old Jan 20, 2013, 02:18 PM
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Belgium, Flemish Region, Oosterzele
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they are here...

My 2 Scorpion 4020 7DD motors have arrived...:

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Old Jan 22, 2013, 05:01 PM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Palm Beach County, Fl.
Joined Aug 2008
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Hello Dekker!
I would like to wind a motor for a friend's EDF what do you think of the double delta for the application? Also do you have a drawing for a double Wye termination? This way I could figure wind calculation for approx Kv with available wire space etc.
Thanks,
Tom
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Old Nov 13, 2013, 07:45 AM
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Skylar's Avatar
South Africa, GP, Pretoria
Joined Jul 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron van Sommeren View Post
Keep an eye on this thread Christo
www.modelbouwforum.nl/.....scorpion-hk3026-hk4225-hk4020-hk4025-hk4035-buitenloper-wikkelen-42.html#post2804304

And Ralph is up to it again, iron-cobalt core
http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=481901

Met vriendelike groete Ron
Dank je wel, Ron

Better late than never. There has been a resurgence of energy (on my part) in this direction, now that I'm busy revamping my motor website. It's a great pity that we've lost most of the info on Ralph's website.

Groete
Christo
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Last edited by Skylar; Nov 13, 2013 at 10:40 AM. Reason: typo
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Old Nov 13, 2013, 07:51 AM
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South Africa, GP, Pretoria
Joined Jul 2003
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DD Winding Scheme

Can anyone supply the winding scheme for 12N14P DD, please?

For one ESC, not the double ESC scheme that Dekker posted above.

Much appreciated in advance..

Christo
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Old Nov 13, 2013, 08:00 AM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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Is a DD the same thing as a Half Parallel dLRK terminated Delta? If so, the attached image shows how the wind can be terminated for either Delta or Wye.

That image is from this thread:

iPower GBM4006-KIT Half Parallel dLRK Rewind - www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1908720

Jack
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Old Nov 13, 2013, 08:23 AM
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Fourdan's Avatar
Antony (France)
Joined Sep 2003
2,994 Posts
Hi
Half parallel LRK is different from half parallel dLRK.
For the same connecting and with the same number of conductors per slot
the Kv could be slightly different (few %)
But they are cousins !
Louis
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Old Nov 13, 2013, 08:44 AM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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I missed the point that it was LRK, I need to read more carefully!

I am curious though, would the attached image be a 2 part LRK motor winding? And could it be terminated so as to run it with one ESC? If so, what would the terminations be?

Jack
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Old Nov 13, 2013, 10:08 AM
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Fourdan's Avatar
Antony (France)
Joined Sep 2003
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Hi Jack

If you consider a double LRK with two separate ESC you are free to wind
AbC teeth 1, 3, 5 partial motor 1 (pitch 60 deg)
AbC teeth 7, 9, 11 partial motor 2 (pitch 60 deg)
Just test the 3 cables in order to rotate the same sense (for every partial motor)
There are also other possible configurations
ABC teeth 1, 5, 9 partial motor 1 (pitch 120 deg)
ABC teeth 3, 7, 11 partial motor 2 (pitch 120 deg)
with the same checking regarding rotation sense (CW or CCW)

All could be star (or delta)
Louis
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Old Nov 13, 2013, 10:09 AM
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South Africa, GP, Pretoria
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Thanks Louis and Jack.

I wish there was a way to use Felix Niesen's calculator to generate the 12N14P "evolution" scheme. See picture.

Christo
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Old Nov 14, 2013, 08:29 AM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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Thanks, Louis. I'll go off and study that a little...

@ Skylar

I think the reason for that is that his calculator always starts the next phase on the next unwound arm where as that Evolution wind skips an arm to start the second phase and comes back to the skipped are for the second quarter of that phase.

I had not heard that called "Evolution" before, it is the wind I call the "dLRK for Delta". What is the evolution thing about?

I actually like that wind best for all winds now. If you are terminating Wye all the starts are on one side away from the Wye bundle and that works better for me for the termination than the alternating ends being joined.

Jack
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