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Old Aug 18, 2011, 05:27 AM
VHO
glider misguider
Armidale NSW Australia
Joined Feb 2007
559 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by PLMS View Post
Hi Hutton. That sounds fairly good. Is the voice output something you home brewed ?
PS. You flying FrSky these days ?
Owen Hedger did the voice output using a PIC chip. Been working a treat with a home brew PIC based box (with inbuilt SD card logger), for about 4 months now. Owen made up his own hub for GPS as well.

The great thing about the How High RT is it works through the RS232 port and if you want RSSI and battery voltage you don't need a hub.

This simple setup gives altitude, vario, signal and Rx battery voltage with a D8R2.

What more can a glider guider want? - except perhaps silence so I can use my eyes and skin as the primary input to the data integrator = brain.

I'm not using FrSky, although I have spent about 4-5 months doing comparative tests, including antenna improvement. Settled on Hitec Spectra with Optima 9 Rx's for range critical gliders (there is no substitute for power output). Unfortunately Hitec haven't got their telemetry stuff together to the point of voice output yet. Looking forward to when they do.
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Old Aug 18, 2011, 02:53 PM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
Fly2High's Avatar
United States, NY, Plainview
Joined Aug 2005
8,080 Posts
Posting it here:
Here's an idea. How's about making plane specific hubs.

It would be cool to have a hub designed just for sailplanes where all one would have might be a vario, altimeter, GPS and maybe a battery for inputs. Maybe only a couple of these.

Maybe a simple one for DLGs: GPS, battery and altimeter. (vario is illegal in most contests)

Maybe for heli, it would be some other configuration.

Maybe for gas vs electric planes.

you get the idea. Sometime the one jack of all trades might be too big or not desired.

Maybe make them specifically for support in certain contest formats.

Maybe sell package deals with all the sensors and the hub together for that style of flying or desire.....

just an idea.....

Frank
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Old Aug 19, 2011, 12:27 AM
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ssatoru's Avatar
Chiba, Japan
Joined Jan 2002
1,044 Posts
I agree How High RT is tiny and handy. It does good filtering and send stable data. Setting to feet output is a good idea. I only wish it can send data at higher frequency.

Does the voice output mean audio vario sound? I am interested how smooth it can be from How High RT input.

Thanks.

Satoru
Quote:
Originally Posted by VHO View Post
Owen Hedger did the voice output using a PIC chip. Been working a treat with a home brew PIC based box (with inbuilt SD card logger), for about 4 months now. Owen made up his own hub for GPS as well.

The great thing about the How High RT is it works through the RS232 port and if you want RSSI and battery voltage you don't need a hub.

...
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Old Aug 19, 2011, 04:37 AM
RC Soarer & wheel re-inventer
debianhot's Avatar
Spain, CN, Tacoronte
Joined Jul 2003
399 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssatoru View Post
I agree How High RT is tiny and handy. It does good filtering and send stable data. Setting to feet output is a good idea. I only wish it can send data at higher frequency. ....
As you have noticed because you have allready worked (programmed) with the stream that frskys tx module outputs , there are far more 0xFE records(voltage and link quality) than 0xFD records (user data).

So the only way that you receive height data at a higher frecuency is to plug it to a A1 or A2 input.

As the Analoginc inputs only have 8 bit resolution that makes the height unpractical . Eg: imagine you have a sensor that outputs heigt in 20 cm increments (good as vario allso) , that would give you a maximum hight of 255/5 = 51 meters only .

But if you use it as a vario only (sensor outputs diferences in hight from previous height ) then it would be very usefull (and quick) .

Think the new "Thermal Scout" does that exactly .
So after my initial tests with the frsky hub+height sensor that was a total disapointment I am thinking to give a try with the new "Thermal Scout" .

UPDATE:
Have been looking arrount Winged Shasows site for the new "Thermal Scout" :
1) They claim "16.5cm/sec Lift threshot", I supose thats the minimum resolution and its better than 20cm (per seccond).
2) It is stated that analog output is "aprox. 0.2 to 3.2V. The mid point, 1.6V, represents zero lift." .
The only thing that makes me doupt is the $56.00 USD that will cost me together with a filter cable and shipping ....
UPDATE of UPDATE : Bought it !!
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Old Aug 19, 2011, 04:47 AM
VHO
glider misguider
Armidale NSW Australia
Joined Feb 2007
559 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssatoru View Post

Does the voice output mean audio vario sound? I am interested how smooth it can be from How High RT input.

Thanks.

Satoru
The voice output gives direction of change (Up / Down) and magnitude in ft/ 0.5 sec around a threshold which we can set around min sink (typically -1 ft/sec for Supra). Typically that threshold is min sink +/- 2 ft/0.5sec.

At 1 sec intervals its too much data for the brain to translate properly. Thats why we also read back the altimeter value at preset intervals (whatever you like, but 15 - 20 secs works well).

So its not tone based, but uses real words with real (simple) content.

Its amazing how many times a few ft/sec up can be followed by 10+ ft/down..but the altimeter reading ground truths you to where you really are.
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Old Aug 19, 2011, 09:30 AM
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ssatoru's Avatar
Chiba, Japan
Joined Jan 2002
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Thank you VHO, that is very interesting approach. Yes, I also found periodical absolute altimeter reading is required to find I am really climbing. My 2m does not glide well like Supra and threshold is larger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by debianhot View Post
....

So the only way that you receive height data at a higher frecuency is to plug it to a A1 or A2 input.

....
Hi debianhot, I think How High RT update frequency is limited because it is sending data at every 1/2 second, not because of FrSky design. But I agree your point that separate vario info through A1/A2 is useful.

What was your finding on FrSky altimeter sensor + Hub? It is disappointing because it does not send data less than 1m?

It seems Thermal Scout RT started to ship and I placed order, too. (too bad they do not offer upgrade from original Thermal Scout.!!Edit!! earlier version can be upgraded, good!) Surprise it also output tone (which can be low cost L1D?) which it is useful for me. There is no easy legal way to transmit tone from glider here.

Thanks.

Satoru
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Old Aug 19, 2011, 02:13 PM
RC Soarer & wheel re-inventer
debianhot's Avatar
Spain, CN, Tacoronte
Joined Jul 2003
399 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssatoru View Post
.......

Hi debianhot, I think How High RT update frequency is limited because it is sending data at every 1/2 second, not because of FrSky design. But I agree your point that separate vario info through A1/A2 is useful.

What was your finding on FrSky altimeter sensor + Hub? It is disappointing because it does not send data less than 1m?
......

Satoru
Yes , height is in meters so minimum climb detected can only be 1m .
If close enough my sight is better than that ( cheaper , liter and simpler too ) .

I have allso been analizing the stream that the tx module outputs .
For me it does not conform to what frsky tells in their docs . 0xFE records (voltage and quality) apear to be perfect allways (some weird values not so often) but 0xFD records (userdata) are often malformed and the correct ones have more weird values ) .

Maybe there are 0xFD records lost (should not because I am doing tests with the rx
over my bench at less than 2 meter away from the tx ) , or I am doing something wrong
with my programming ( bugs , bugs , bugs ) or that I have not understood well the frsky docs.
Even so I have allso used a capture program (that outputs the stream in hexadecimal ) and I have observed these 0xFD malformed records ) .
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Old Aug 20, 2011, 09:29 AM
Living in the south of France
paulinfrance's Avatar
Joined Aug 2011
442 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssatoru View Post
Altimeter sensor is Bosch BMP085 according to PLMS's post. It is digital with I2C interface. I am trying the sensor with Arduino, it reads less than 1m but requires processing, at least filtering to get stable reading.
I am curious what FrSky hub processes this sensor input. If it already filters and sends altimeter value in meter, it may not be optimal for variometer use. On the other hand, I am flying How High RT telemetry for a few months as vario. It sends altimeter value in meter at only 2 times per second but it is usable as vario (though calculated audio vario sound is not smooth.)

Satoru
I have been using, thermal scout,

http://wingedshadow.com/thermalscout.html

wired to a glo driver and a 'speaker' to give me a vario on my FPV glider, but it is a bit slow.
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Old Aug 20, 2011, 09:57 AM
Registered User
Poole, England
Joined Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by debianhot View Post
Maybe there are 0xFD records lost (should not because I am doing tests with the rx
over my bench at less than 2 meter away from the tx ) , or I am doing something wrong
with my programming ( bugs , bugs , bugs ) or that I have not understood well the frsky docs.
Even so I have allso used a capture program (that outputs the stream in hexadecimal ) and I have observed these 0xFD malformed records ) .
I haven't noticed any problems, data is safely arriving using er9x. FrSky have mentioned updating both Tx module and Rx to the latest firmware "which can improve the reliability and stability of data feedback after the transmitter’s reset."
I'm using a DJT Tx module, and a D8R-II Rx with a V2 sticker, and think I have recent firmware anyway.

Mike.
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Old Aug 20, 2011, 12:49 PM
RC Soarer & wheel re-inventer
debianhot's Avatar
Spain, CN, Tacoronte
Joined Jul 2003
399 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Blandford View Post
I haven't noticed any problems, data is safely arriving using er9x. FrSky have mentioned updating both Tx module and Rx to the latest firmware "which can improve the reliability and stability of data feedback after the transmitter’s reset."
I'm using a DJT Tx module, and a D8R-II Rx with a V2 sticker, and think I have recent firmware anyway.

Mike.
Yes , did the update to the 2way tx module (hack module) , but as I had just received a brand new D8R-II rx I did not update that .
Lets try the update before even admitting that my sw may have bugs .
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Old Aug 20, 2011, 06:01 PM
Registered User
Poole, England
Joined Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by debianhot View Post
Yes , did the update to the 2way tx module (hack module) , but as I had just received a brand new D8R-II rx I did not update that .
Lets try the update before even admitting that my sw may have bugs .
In what way are your FD records malformed? I assume you are handling the byte stuffing OK.

Mike.
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Old Aug 20, 2011, 06:06 PM
VHO
glider misguider
Armidale NSW Australia
Joined Feb 2007
559 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssatoru View Post
I think How High RT update frequency is limited because it is sending data at every 1/2 second, not because of FrSky design.
Lets put this discussion into user mode.

Electronics. How High reports every 1/2 sec, but gathers data much faster and integrates the numbers into 1/2 sec blocks.

Human interface. Think of your reaction time, then the time for a model glider to react....1/2 sec is actually very short.

Real world. Think of the world in which you are planning to make decisions. Model airspeed = 8 m/s, min sink rate 0.3 m/s, thermal diameter 20+m, = 2-3 secs to traverse...upwards vector in thermal = minimum is 0.3+m/s but in reality you won't easily detect this by eye, more like 0.6-1.2m/s is detectable and useful. Its more useful to know where sink is, that comes in bigger chunks > 1-2m/s, is not uncommon. Main rule is get out as fast as you can.

So what is the problem with the How High RT used as a vario? The electronic specs are far tighter than those a human needs to make a decision..

My problem with How High RT used as a vario is that it adds a third and rather unusual dimension to the senses I use to find thermals (Eyes, skin, and now ears). The constant chatter from the vario when outside the threshold range is actually distracting from the other senses. Its like having a caller who talks too much (and we know what we would like to do to them ).

But knowing How High I really am at 15-20 sec intervals is useful and not distracting.

That's quite a lot for 2c don't you think?....
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Old Aug 20, 2011, 11:37 PM
Crafter of flying plugs
Owen Hedger's Avatar
Armidale, NSW
Joined Feb 2007
1,152 Posts
Satoru,

The voice synthesis we (VHO & Me) are using is based on the PicTalker (http://home.alphalink.com.au/~derekw/pictalker/main.htm). I modified it a bit, using the hardware USART instead of software. Added buffer. Programmed in some relevent words rather than sending all the phenoms over serial for the common words.

Just if you interested.
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Old Aug 21, 2011, 02:01 AM
Registered User
showmaster's Avatar
United States, CA, Los Angeles
Joined Aug 2006
1,776 Posts
Sensor display format?

Living in the USA all life has kept me from being exposed to the metric system. This bring said brings up these questions.
Will the Frsky sensors display feet, mph, oz, or must I translate from metric.
I currently using a WS How High that displays feet above ground on my er9x r437 FW and a DHT and v2 8ch RX.
I use the HH to stay under 400FT due to local airports and FAA rules. I don't need a vario rate of climb, just altitude.
I ask this because I have the long, long waited for Frsky Hub and altitude sensor on back order. If temp, altitude, fuel level, speed will all be in metric not sure I need them. Possibly er9x could be patched to convert from metric for display if that's possable?
With other options available, and time to cancel my hub/sensors due to backorder, I need an answer ASAP.
Any help clarifying my question is a big help saving me buying something I won't be happy with.
Of course learning the metric system is one answer but I fly to relax and have fun, not go back to school.
Thank you.
SW
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Old Aug 22, 2011, 01:52 AM
Registered User
ssatoru's Avatar
Chiba, Japan
Joined Jan 2002
1,044 Posts
Hi VHO, thank you for your detailed thoughts. I agree with that. My problem with How High RT frequency is generating smooth audio vario sound. I am not questioning its usefulness as vario. I can filter it for longer duration but it will incur delay, currently averaging for 1 second only, resulting rather busy frequency change.
Maybe this is code technique issue. There should be better way to generate the sound. (I am emulating old analogue sound anyway.)

It is true vario is useful to confirm other sense. When I was flying full scale, vario was too slow to find small thermal. Kick to the butt was the best instrument. It is always a challenge to know where is the center of the thermal (which side to turn).

I am still learning to find a good way to use vario. With my slow flying (poor glide ratio at speed) model glider, sometimes it can climb better if I stay straight (or meander) in series of thermals, rather than repeating circle/glide fast to up wind for the next on windy day.

Thanks Owen for PICTalker info.

Satoru
Quote:
Originally Posted by VHO View Post
Lets put this discussion into user mode.
....
That's quite a lot for 2c don't you think?....
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