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Old Sep 14, 2011, 12:14 PM
Gone Huckin'
turnerm's Avatar
Charlotte, NC
Joined Jan 2011
9,262 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fliprob17 View Post
*My plane seems to balloon quite a bit when cutting throttle. I've got my CG back at 90mm so I assume that it why. But it makes it tough to land. Should I add some more down thrust to my motor?
1. this is fairly typical of a lightly loaded 3D style airframe. If you are trimmed for level flight, hands off @ 60% throttle, and when you roll it inverted and do the same it ever so slightly noses down or remains level, don't mess with the CG. If it climbs inverted, then yes you are tail heavy. Learning to land this style airframe is the more important factor. Don't chop the throttle, don't flare, fly it to the ground and use the throttle to control it. You may need to ever so slightly keep the nose down until just before you are ready to reach terra firma.


*I couldn't get it to tumble very well. I'd take it way up high, kill throttle and then when it started to stall I'd give full down elevator and full throttle and it would simply do this small loops but it wasn't tumbling. My elevator throw is 45 degrees. Thoughts?
2. you need to have speed to tumble. Fly across horizontally at 3/4 throttle, and throw the sticks in opposite corners. Throttle stick off, full rudder one direction, full up on the elevator stick (down elevator) and matching aileron to rudder input.

*How DO you KE spin officially? When I did mine I tried to start a tumble and then I gave it full left rudder and wham... it was KE spinning tight and FAST! But like I said I couldn't replicate this.
3. you need to control the spin with throttle, that's what gets you into it consistently and controls how fast it spins.

*I'm currently flying a 12x6 prop. Will the 13x4 help with some of these maneuvers?
4. if you are running 4s stick with the 12x6
Thanks Rob. That's what I was thinking on the ballooning issue - I don't think I'm used to flying an airframe like this with an AFT CG. Most of my planes I just use elevator to control speed (on landing approach) and throttle to control decent rate and I usually come in at a nose up attitude. For this plane, you're exactly right - it feels like I have to push the nose to the ground (at least with the CG back at 90mm). On my maiden I had the CG more forward and it landed the way I'm used to. So this will just take practice I guess.

I think I used the wrong terminology on the tumble - what you described to me is what I think of as a snap roll. I was tying to do a waterfall type thing where the plane goes into a tail over nose type tumble. I was under the impression that I could do this will just throttle and elevator only (and maybe some rudder/aileron to keep it straight). But I read somewhere that I may have to modulate the throttle (on to get the nose up and then off during the downward tumble).
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 12:29 PM
customstandoffs
cmala's Avatar
USA, AL, Madison
Joined Dec 2007
8,547 Posts
I don't know about your waterfall tumble but, a KE spin works like this.

Go straight up, cut throttle, as the plane stalls give full left rudder and a little throttle to kick it over, when the plane is pointing down give full left aileron, full left rudder and increase throttle. Let it spin a couple of revs and then go full down elevator and neutral on the ailerons. Keep full left rudder and full throttle. You should be in a KE spin now. If it flops out of it then you need to adjust very slightly with the ailerons to keep it in a KE spin. Too much right aileron and it will flatten out inverted, too much left aileron and it will flatten out upright and tumble out.

When you are ready to come out of it, ease the ailerons over to the right (very slight) and it will turn into an inverted flat spin and you can fly out inverted, hold down elevator and pop up into a hover or just flip it back upright.

On the 48 Edge, it works like this every time for me.
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 12:45 PM
Gone Huckin'
turnerm's Avatar
Charlotte, NC
Joined Jan 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmala View Post
I don't know about your waterfall tumble but, a KE spin works like this.

Go straight up, cut throttle, as the plane stalls give full left rudder and a little throttle to kick it over, when the plane is pointing down give full left aileron, full left rudder and increase throttle. Let it spin a couple of revs and then go full down elevator and neutral on the ailerons. Keep full left rudder and full throttle. You should be in a KE spin now. If it flops out of it then you need to adjust very slightly with the ailerons to keep it in a KE spin. Too much right aileron and it will flatten out inverted, too much left aileron and it will flatten out upright and tumble out.

When you are ready to come out of it, ease the ailerons over to the right (very slight) and it will turn into an inverted flat spin and you can fly out inverted, hold down elevator and pop up into a hover or just flip it back upright.

On the 48 Edge, it works like this every time for me.
Awesome - thanks a lot for the stick movement tutorial. Thinking back on when I got it to KE spin I think it was because I added in some left aileron. Everything else I've been doing is very similar to what you've described.

I'll try it this weekend and let you know how it works.

I do LOVE those tight KE spins. Pretty sweet looking and they sound awesome too!
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 12:50 PM
Righteous 87
Randidly's Avatar
United States, FL, Port St Lucie
Joined Jun 2009
1,655 Posts
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Originally Posted by Fliprob17 View Post
*2. you need to have speed to tumble. Fly across horizontally at 3/4 throttle, and throw the sticks in opposite corners. Throttle stick off, full rudder one direction, full up on the elevator stick (down elevator) and matching aileron to rudder input.
3/4 throttle is wimpy, why do 3/4 when you can use full
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 12:50 PM
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United States, OK, Norman
Joined Mar 2010
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Originally Posted by turnerm View Post
Thanks Rob. That's what I was thinking on the ballooning issue - I don't think I'm used to flying an airframe like this with an AFT CG.

Most of my planes I just use elevator to control speed (on landing approach) and throttle to control decent rate and I usually come in at a nose up attitude. For this plane, you're exactly right - it feels like I have to push the nose to the ground (at least with the CG back at 90mm). On my maiden I had the CG more forward and it landed the way I'm used to. So this will just take practice I guess.
CG location is more of a personal preference issue... So there is no reason to have to have the CG so far back unless that is where you prefer it. Experimentation is fine and all of that... but fly the plane the way you want so you are comfortable with it...

The recommended location is still just forward of neutral like Arron ( theKM ) and many other flies their planes. I've experimented with mine a little and at this time... I'm flying with mine slightly forward, it just feels right to me that way.

Randy
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 12:55 PM
Gone Huckin'
turnerm's Avatar
Charlotte, NC
Joined Jan 2011
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Originally Posted by rdsok View Post
CG location is more of a personal preference issue... So there is no reason to have to have the CG so far back unless that is where you prefer it. Experimentation is fine and all of that... but fly the plane the way you want so you are comfortable with it...

The recommended location is still just forward of neutral like Arron ( theKM ) and many other flies their planes. I've experimented with mine a little and at this time... I'm flying with mine slightly forward, it just feels right to me that way.

Randy
Very good point actually. I think I've had it in my head that I need a very aft CG to pull off some of the maneuevers that I want to do like harrier, hover, Ke spin, blender, flat spin, inverted flat spin etc.

I guess I'll go back a CG around 80-83ish where it feels great to me and see if I can pull of the maneuevers that I want. If so, then great.

Right?
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 12:56 PM
Gone Huckin'
turnerm's Avatar
Charlotte, NC
Joined Jan 2011
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I should clarify - the first time I flew the plane I had the CG around 82/83 and it was super smooth and landing and almost hands off inverted (just a very mild touch of down elevator).
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 01:25 PM
3D Legion: "for we are many"
aerosheldon's Avatar
United States, CO, Highlands Ranch
Joined Sep 2003
2,884 Posts
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Originally Posted by cmala View Post


www.jerrycozort.com

If you get one, make sure you buy the neck strap as well. It is a great strap and the padding is really soft.


I have the universal tray and I even use it when I fly someone else's plane. When I flew Bivens' 104 Slick I used my tray with his transmitter.
That looks nice but $60 plus shipping just to see if I like a tray or not seems expensive… I wonder if it would still work for a thumb flyer (it looks like it would)??
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 01:31 PM
customstandoffs
cmala's Avatar
USA, AL, Madison
Joined Dec 2007
8,547 Posts
Yes it would. You could still wrap your hands around the transmitter since the tray is cutout on the sides.

I was flying with thumbs when I first bought the tray.
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 01:37 PM
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central PA.
Joined Sep 2004
20,189 Posts
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Originally Posted by turnerm View Post
Very good point actually. I think I've had it in my head that I need a very aft CG to pull off some of the maneuevers that I want to do like harrier, hover, Ke spin, blender, flat spin, inverted flat spin etc.

I guess I'll go back a CG around 80-83ish where it feels great to me and see if I can pull of the maneuevers that I want. If so, then great.

Right?
don't short-change yourself with too rearward a CofG just for one or two maneuvers... if you learned to fly a maneuver like that, then it means you'll have yet another learning curve to get over having a more normal CofG not to mention what it does to the trim of the airplane (increases the amount of pitch coupling) and flying other maneuvers. Personally, I just watched videos of people flying who I wanted to replicate their flying style, set it up the way they have it, and then all the rest was up to me. In this case, watching Scott Stoops and AJ, they have their CofG's a little ahead of neutral, so that's usually where you'll see my CofG's....
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 01:41 PM
Gone Huckin'
turnerm's Avatar
Charlotte, NC
Joined Jan 2011
9,262 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by theKM View Post
don't short-change yourself with too rearward a CofG just for one or two maneuvers... if you learned to fly a maneuver like that, then it means you'll have yet another learning curve to get over having a more normal CofG not to mention what it does to the trim of the airplane (increases the amount of pitch coupling) and flying other maneuvers. Personally, I just watched videos of people flying who I wanted to replicate their flying style, set it up the way they have it, and then all the rest was up to me. In this case, watching Scott Stoops and AJ, they have their CofG's a little ahead of neutral, so that's usually where you'll see my CofG's....
When you say a little ahead of neutral I assume you mean to find the CG where it flies straight and level at 60% throttle and hands off (and inverted hands off or very little down elevator) and then move the battery a touch forward to move the CG just a touch forward of that point. Is that correct?

Thanks for all the continued help.
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 01:43 PM
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central PA.
Joined Sep 2004
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Originally Posted by turnerm View Post
When you say a little ahead of neutral I assume you mean to find the CG where it flies straight and level at 60% throttle and hands off (and inverted hands off or very little down elevator) and then move the battery a touch forward to move the CG just a touch forward of that point. Is that correct?

Thanks for all the continued help.
yup. all my planes fall slightly inverted... slight pressure needed to maintain altitude. it helps the planes be steady, then all the rest of the 3D nonsense comes from airframe design and control throws...
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 01:49 PM
Gone Huckin'
turnerm's Avatar
Charlotte, NC
Joined Jan 2011
9,262 Posts
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Originally Posted by theKM View Post
yup. all my planes fall slightly inverted... slight pressure needed to maintain altitude. it helps the planes be steady, then all the rest of the 3D nonsense comes from airframe design and control throws...
Aweseom. That clears up one thing for me - for whatever reason I had it in my head that I needed a very aft CG to pull off all these maneuevers. But I do prefer a more forward CG for flying enjoyment!
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 03:37 PM
On loan to Texas
Ohio AV8TOR's Avatar
United States, TX, Benbrook
Joined Oct 2005
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Originally Posted by aerosheldon View Post
That looks nice but $60 plus shipping just to see if I like a tray or not seems expensive… I wonder if it would still work for a thumb flyer (it looks like it would)??
I agree with the total cost but I am going to try it with just the tray and rig up a strap to try. I have no problem with the $35 for the tray but the $25 for the neckstrap is another story.
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Old Sep 14, 2011, 03:42 PM
I fly, therefore, I crash!!!
SteveT.'s Avatar
San Jose, CA
Joined Jan 2008
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Originally Posted by Ohio AV8TOR View Post
I agree with the total cost but I am going to try it with just the tray and rig up a strap to try. I have no problem with the $35 for the tray but the $25 for the neckstrap is another story.
so use a piece of rope.... Besides, just to try one out, you can make a home made tray pretty much like that using some plywood, and two eye bolts.... it ain't rocket science.... A friend of mine made one just to try it out.....he's still using it a year later....

SteveT
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