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Old Dec 20, 2012, 10:11 AM
G_T
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It might be possible to use the hairspray trick on Samurai, or some other similar methods.

Gerald
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 10:33 AM
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It's not hard to work with necessarily, but where the cuts get narrow, it's very easy to distort the cloth. Hairspray would certainly work as would any transfer method.

Again, once you work with it a bit, no big deal... but textreme is so easy even a caveman could do it.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by tom43004 View Post
Again, once you work with it a bit, no big deal... but textreme is so easy even a caveman could do it.
Huh?
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 11:07 AM
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Wow Tom the FR3AK is looking great! I have only seen GaryO's older model in person and I loved it. Can't wait to see your distributer list it

+1 to Textreme being nice to work with. Not sure how Mr. Wiz got my picture though
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 11:41 AM
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http://shop.r-g.de/Neuheiten/SAMURAI...1k-65-g/m.html

Based on the 70 grams version I guess it has no binder (http://shop.r-g.de/Nach-Hersteller/S...4k-70-g/m.html).

Bas
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 12:11 PM
Time for me to Fly...
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Originally Posted by killercando View Post
Wow Tom the FR3AK is looking great! I have only seen GaryO's older model in person and I loved it. Can't wait to see your distributer list it

+1 to Textreme being nice to work with. Not sure how Mr. Wiz got my picture though:confused:
It was easy....
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tom43004 View Post
Samurai is nice, about the same finished weight as the 64g Textreme. It's a bit harder to work with because it lacks a solid binder, but the weave is tight enough that if you're careful it won't be a problem.
So 9 grams for the binder has to be added to Textreme ST, i.e. 80 + 9 = 89? That is quite a bit more than 65 grams for Samurai, plus more epoxy.

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Old Dec 20, 2012, 01:28 PM
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So 9 grams for the binder has to be added to Textreme ST, i.e. 80 + 9 = 89? That is quite a bit more than 65 grams for Samurai, plus more epoxy.

There is also a 61 grams Samurai spreadtow available
http://shop.r-g.de/Neuheiten/SAMURAI...1k-61-g/m.html
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 01:40 PM
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The Samurai fabric I have experience with is 61g. It's great stuff but not bound. The fibers are sized in the tows well but the tows can freely move against each other because there is no binding. Textreme is somewhat like working with construction paper. Cut it to shape and it stays very much in that shape with minimal fraying at the edges.

80g/sm Textreme is marginally IMHO too heavy for DLG use if you're looking to get wing weights consistently under 130g. I've used it alot in the past but now that there are lighter options available, this is no longer the "prime" material. Textreme in 64g/sm or Samurai at 61g/sm or Vlad at around 40g/sm are all better choices for DLG work. Again, this is my opinion.

The way I understand it, is that they list it as 80g/sm because if you're calculating resin ratio, this is the fiber weight that will absorb resin. The 9g binder is basically hot melt and will not absorb epoxy so it's listed separately.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:02 PM
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Tom, do you find the 40g Vlad "cloth" absorbs more resin on wet out and is it actually as stiff, or is it more stiff (finished product) than 64g Textreme?
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:17 PM
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I think it's a bit more fragile than the 64g Textreme, both in working and in finished product... but by ratio I have not measured resin content. My gut feel is that by cloth volume they're similar.
Wings made with the Vlad carbon are certainly lighter than 64g Textreme wings, but they're also a bit more fragile in my opinion and I'm not sure they're lighter by the proper ratios.

Since I have all of those materials on hand, maybe an experiment is in order I know on the original Fr3aK wings, Vlad carbon took about 10-12g off the wings with no other changes, but keep in mind these were D-box wings. I have not done a full carbon 64g Textreme wing but it sounds like I should. If I were a betting man, I'd guess a D-box Textreme 80 at 130-135g, a Textreme 64 at 125-130g, and a Vlad at 120-125g. Full spread tow should be Textreme 80 at 140-150g, Textreme 64 at 130-140g and Vlad at 120-130g. These are all using large doublers and the 38kg/m^3 foam. Rohacell 31igf and smalling up the doublers will pull all of these weights down about 10g if we want to do an "ultra light" version down the road.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 02:42 PM
Aurora Builder
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I always wondered how such light wings were built with 80g Textreme, reality is they really weren't.

I have done the experiment on my d-box, which is ~1.5 times the size of Tom's:

1) Textreme 80=139g wing
2) Samurai 61=132g wing
3) Vlad 39g=125g wing

The rest of the wings were the same across the board, hollow molded with Rohacell 31IGF.

A full vlad spread tow wing came out at ~135g for me but I'm sure lighter is achievable.

My #1 choice is a Vlad d-box due to the weight, everything else adds weight at no appreciable stiffness. Samurai and Textreme are a bit more durable which is good for some.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 03:13 PM
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I'm not so sure Sam! I did a recent run of bagged ZoneV2s' with 80 Textreme Dbox and 1 ounce kevlar disser with also a carbon plate spar under the Dbox (carbon spar like the Taboo GT) and averaged 125g and prefaced flapperon on spyder foam! So ...
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 08:01 PM
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Kevin,

You can do that on Spyder foam. I can build a Vlad d-box wing down to <110g on 40 psi foam with MGS epoxy. Not entirely possible with hollow molded.

Tom has posted real weights on wings that not only look amazing but are super, super durable. His math and experience completely agrees with mine, 100-110g wings are possible with the lighter foam densities (25-40 psi). Reality is <120g wings at this size (>300 in^2) don't make much sense.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 08:37 PM
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I have a 100gr (before electronics) Polaris wing and it kicks butt in light air, but in reality, I fly it perhaps 10% of the time at a typical contest. I did fly it almost 50% of the time at the last TS but that was when the conditions were very mild (morning and evening, we flew until 8pm!!). For not-so-strong throwers it is a great all-around airplane, but having a heavier wing (and AUW) allows me to throw my plane higher. I like 9.5-10.5oz airplanes. When they get down well below 9oz, it starts to feel like a wiffle ball Powerful throwers will generally agree and I think many people that throw in the <150' range will benefit from lighter airplanes. Its all about getting the right airframe for the right pilot. Sorry for the somewhat-off-topic comments. Carry on

Beautiful work, as always, Tom. It's getting harder and harder to hold on to $700 Keep it up, buddy! Your progress is astounding!
Paul
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