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Old Feb 01, 2012, 09:23 PM
You can't take the sky from me
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United States, WA, Richland
Joined May 2009
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@tkoguy

Hey tkoguy

What USB programmer are you using? Just idle curiosity.

TIA
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Old Feb 01, 2012, 09:40 PM
R/C CRASHER
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United States, CA, Corona
Joined Dec 2004
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The one I bought from HK.. usbasp
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Old Feb 01, 2012, 09:57 PM
professional copter-crasher
United States, OH, North Royalton
Joined Jan 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksoggs View Post
sadly... i have my trims all maxed out, and i still come nowhere close to any sort of shake... and the copter is still a tad wobbly... is there a way to increase pot power? sort of like the stick sensitivity thing... but with pots?
sorry... not trims... pots... i am set to 100% on roll pitch and yaw... and it is still wobbly.. as in i need more gyro. it wont hover to save its life... it is like driving a car with bad tie rods, bad alignment and a loose steering wheel. i watch everyone elses videos, and their quad takes off perfectly vertical, and can hover right in place. mine acts like it is drunk. the second it lifts off the ground, it is always tilted this way or that... starts wandering in one direction or another. i am constantly fighting to keep it in one place. as i have read it... these are all signs that i need to turn my pots up... "turn it up till you start to shake or oscillate back and forth..." i am at 100% and i come no-where close to anything like a shake or oscilation.
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Old Feb 01, 2012, 10:34 PM
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United States, IL, Chicago
Joined Jan 2012
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Wow, I see that you guys had some interesting discussions last few days while I was busy and didn't read the thread. I too have lazy #4 problem. In my case I noticed that if I slowly increase throttle motors start spinning one by one until lastly #4 spins up. Has anyone else noticed it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksoggs View Post
if you wanted im sure you could adjust them while it was in flight if you could...
Not exactly. According to 4.7 source code pots are read at two points. First during firmware startup which only happens at power up. Second - when the throttle is close to zero. Firmware then goes through gyro calibration code and part of it is to read gain pots and store them in memory. Once throttle goes above zero, gyro calibration code gets bypassed and pots are not read anymore. Stored values are used for calculations.

So, last few days i was busy working on 4.7 code. I heavily modified it. My version displays data on serial LCD, beeps motors when disarmed, does gyro input smoothing. All this while trying to figure out what's causing uneven output to motors. No solution yet. I think however that it may have something to do with the ratios at which readings are calculated. There is still a number of improvements that I want to make. Reset I term periodically like it should be to avoid buildup. Correct how motor speed is adjusted at the bottom and top speed to avoid shutdown or saturation.

Unfortunately shaky-shaky workaround (it's not really a fix) didn't seem to work for me. Maybe I need to give my quad a more vigorous shake. I suspect that shake workaround does not keep through firmware flashes because whatever it affects is stored in EEPROM which gets erased during a reflash. in fact it might be interesting to not erase EEPROM during reflash. Not sure if that's possible. I haven't looked at avrdude options yet. LazyZero might know the answer. Actually if someone could test that, that might help me in troubleshooting the code. Reflash "fixed" board with same code without erasing EEPROM and see if the problem comes back. Then I would know to closely look at the data that's stored in EEPROM.
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Old Feb 01, 2012, 10:39 PM
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United States, IL, Chicago
Joined Jan 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksoggs View Post
sadly... i have my trims all maxed out, and i still come nowhere close to any sort of shake... and the copter is still a tad wobbly... is there a way to increase pot power? sort of like the stick sensitivity thing... but with pots?
Magnitude of pot adjustment can be changed in the code. You would need a custom version of firmware for that. Basically code reads pot value and then divides it by a certain number. If we reduce that number, value of the pot will be bigger. I can build a custom firmware for you.
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Old Feb 01, 2012, 10:40 PM
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United States, OR, Portland
Joined Dec 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksoggs View Post
sorry... not trims... pots... i am set to 100% on roll pitch and yaw... and it is still wobbly.. as in i need more gyro. it wont hover to save its life... it is like driving a car with bad tie rods, bad alignment and a loose steering wheel. i watch everyone elses videos, and their quad takes off perfectly vertical, and can hover right in place. mine acts like it is drunk. the second it lifts off the ground, it is always tilted this way or that... starts wandering in one direction or another. i am constantly fighting to keep it in one place. as i have read it... these are all signs that i need to turn my pots up... "turn it up till you start to shake or oscillate back and forth..." i am at 100% and i come no-where close to anything like a shake or oscilation.
Try following the instructions in the post I linked earlier. Once again it worked well for me but YMMV. I do know that I have never been able to turn my pots up all the way and have a stable quad. You do understand that the labels pitch roll and yaw on the board DO NOT directly correspond to those actual gyro gains right? Roll pot controls p term gain on pitch and roll. Pitch controls I term gain on pitch and roll. Yaw is p term gain on yaw, I term is fixed. Turning them all the way up is probably not ideal. Any video of your quad flying?
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Old Feb 01, 2012, 11:00 PM
You can't take the sky from me
scott page's Avatar
United States, WA, Richland
Joined May 2009
5,634 Posts
"test flew"

My aircraft doesn't have shaken quad syndrome -- but I did "test fly" it by holding it by makeshift landing gear and yawing, rolling, and pitching it this way and that. I did this a number of times under different conditions.

My quad is friggin strong. I wanted it to pull a load -- wow -- it will. But first

I found out that when I start the motors with the yaw in 0 setting -- I don't need to arm the board to start the motors -- and in fact -- the board won't arm -- but the motors will run with the following observations. All 4 run at nearly identical RPMS-- Motor 3 a tad slower (<100RPM) and motor 4 a tad faster (<100RPM difference). Also There is no apparent effect of pitching it or yawing it on the motor speed. No apparent effect of giving transmitter commands except for throttle. Throttle is exceptional smooth -- and all motors sound "like they should" working in unison. I repeated this several times with identical results.

Then I did the same test as above except after starting up with yaw at zero -- and before I issued a throttle command I turned yaw (and later I did pitch) pots all the way up. NO EFFECT. None.

So -- I did the whole flash flash flash .. and then calibrated by the numbers == powered up -- armed and test flew pitching and yawing .. but motor 4 never did "wake up". I was however surprised that it's incredibly reactive to transmitter input. I mean this thing would like to spin on a dime. Not at all what I'd expect from the noob version of the software -- When I say reactive -- almost violently reactive. I had no expo and I was at 100% rates. No trim.
Also -- when I test flew it .. I would hold by one leg .. and it wanted to fall off to the right and back all the time. I could turn it so it was tipped to the left.. hold until the gryos stopped fighting me -- and then it would just fall off to the right and back.

This was what happened on my only (90 second) flight. I could not maintain level as it wanted to fall to the right and back.

I'm about to give up on solving this puzzle and just install my copter control board and be done with it. I HATE to give up on a puzzle like this.

On this ESC calibration step -- is that calibration happening in the ESC's or in the board? Cause -- I'm pretty sure nothing is happening in the ESC's. The ESC's I have can be programmed for battery type, and such -- but I see no documentation on setting end points -- so I was assuming this was a setting in the kk board -- but ... not too sure.
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Old Feb 01, 2012, 11:25 PM
"It's a Quad" :O
thewz's Avatar
Temecula
Joined Jul 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott page View Post
On this ESC calibration step -- is that calibration happening in the ESC's or in the board? Cause -- I'm pretty sure nothing is happening in the ESC's. The ESC's I have can be programmed for battery type, and such -- but I see no documentation on setting end points -- so I was assuming this was a setting in the kk board -- but ... not too sure.
The ESC's are programmed for the max and min input from the Tx (End Points). Setting the POT on the board just allows the ESC's to see Tx input without the board being armed none of this is programmed into the control board.

Set the POT to 0 and have the TX on and set to high throttle. When you power on the board you should hear all the ESC's beep twice. Once you hear that lower the throttle to 0. At this point mine just sit and beep.........beep..........beep at this point. If you aren't getting this Beep Beep you aren't getting to calibration mode on the ESCs.

Some ESC's don't have adjustible endpoints ....Castle Creations are in the catagory (unfortunatly as I have gobs of them and love them on my planes and helis).
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Old Feb 01, 2012, 11:30 PM
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United States, IL, Chicago
Joined Jan 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott page View Post
I found out that when I start the motors with the yaw in 0 setting -- I don't need to arm the board to start the motors -- and in fact -- the board won't arm -- but the motors will run with the following observations. All 4 run at nearly identical RPMS-- Motor 3 a tad slower (<100RPM) and motor 4 a tad faster (<100RPM difference). Also There is no apparent effect of pitching it or yawing it on the motor speed. No apparent effect of giving transmitter commands except for throttle. Throttle is exceptional smooth -- and all motors sound "like they should" working in unison. I repeated this several times with identical results.
This is expected. As mentioned earlier in this thread by setting yaw pot to zero you told firmware that you want to calibrate ESCs. In this mode firmware just sends whatever throttle it reads from Rx straight to all 4 motors. No math, no adjustments, no reading other channels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott page View Post
Then I did the same test as above except after starting up with yaw at zero -- and before I issued a throttle command I turned yaw (and later I did pitch) pots all the way up. NO EFFECT. None.
This is also expected. Again, you put firmware in throttle calibration mode. Firmware stays in that mode and ignores all input other than throttle until you power off the board and set yaw pot higher than 0.

I won't comment on the rest of your post because I'm not sure whether your ESCs are calibrated or not and what values your pots were set to, so it's hard to tell what was going on.
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Old Feb 01, 2012, 11:36 PM
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United States, IL, Chicago
Joined Jan 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksoggs View Post
sorry... not trims... pots... i am set to 100% on roll pitch and yaw... and it is still wobbly.. as in i need more gyro.
That's what it's supposed to do with all pots set to 100%. It's supposed to overcorrect which causes wobble. once you hit that point you're supposed to trim the pots down until it stops wobbling.
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Old Feb 02, 2012, 12:20 AM
Master of Flash
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Alsdorf/Eifel, Germany
Joined Jun 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arturj View Post
Unfortunately shaky-shaky workaround (it's not really a fix) didn't seem to work for me. Maybe I need to give my quad a more vigorous shake. I suspect that shake workaround does not keep through firmware flashes because whatever it affects is stored in EEPROM which gets erased during a reflash. in fact it might be interesting to not erase EEPROM during reflash. Not sure if that's possible. I haven't looked at avrdude options yet. LazyZero might know the answer. Actually if someone could test that, that might help me in troubleshooting the code. Reflash "fixed" board with same code without erasing EEPROM and see if the problem comes back. Then I would know to closely look at the data that's stored in EEPROM.
I have done some experiments two weeks ago to see what is written to the EEPROM. It was only gyro reverse values in the first three bytes. But I didn't arm or fly the board. But in my understanding of the source code this is the only thing stored in EEPROM.

Christian
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Old Feb 02, 2012, 12:29 AM
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United States, IL, Chicago
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Originally Posted by LazyZero View Post
I have done some experiments two weeks ago to see what is written to the EEPROM. It was only gyro reverse values in the first three bytes. But I didn't arm or fly the board. But in my understanding of the source code this is the only thing stored in EEPROM.

Christian
Pot reversal is also stored in EEPROM but yes, these are the only 4 values. Would be interesting if they do have any relation to the problem.
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Old Feb 02, 2012, 12:32 AM
Master of Flash
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Alsdorf/Eifel, Germany
Joined Jun 2005
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But pot reversal is introduced by you. And not in the original 4.7, right?
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Old Feb 02, 2012, 01:00 AM
You can't take the sky from me
scott page's Avatar
United States, WA, Richland
Joined May 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewz View Post
Some ESC's don't have adjustible endpoints ....Castle Creations are in the catagory (unfortunatly as I have gobs of them and love them on my planes and helis).

I can accept that the ESC's don't have adjustable end points. However --

When you take that one step further -- I can bypass the kkboard by putting the board in ESC calibration mode and the motors all run in perfect sync when the command are passed through the kk board from the Rx. So apparently their end points are set well.

Why then when the KKboard is powered are they so .... wrong. I've used the tachometer on the motors dozens of times now -- and when started by the numbers -- motor 4 is always at the same RPM -- despite what the other motors are at. That fact alone screams -- somethings is wrong here. I'd say that if I ws to guess -- the motor 4 is at the lowest end point and just holds there. When I mean the same end point -- I mean 1400 - 1440 RPM every single time except when the battery got low. The others would vary considerably.
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Old Feb 02, 2012, 01:10 AM
Master of Flash
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Alsdorf/Eifel, Germany
Joined Jun 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott page View Post
When you take that one step further -- I can bypass the kkboard by putting the board in ESC calibration mode and the motors all run in perfect sync when the command are passed through the kk board from the Rx. So apparently their end points are set well.

Why then when the KKboard is powered are they so .... wrong. I've used the tachometer on the motors dozens of times now -- and when started by the numbers -- motor 4 is always at the same RPM -- despite what the other motors are at. That fact alone screams -- somethings is wrong here.
The fact is that there is a signal processing that on the controller.
Interesting line from the sources:
Code:
*** NOTE **** Adding more code between PWMGenStart and PWMGenEnd may result in a base pulse longer than 1ms and a copter in your face
BTW to stop these discussions why it is all fine in calibration mode:
Code:
;---- ESC Throttle range calibration. This outputs collective input to all motor outputs ---
;---- This mode is entered by turning yaw gain pot to zero and turning on the flight controller. ---
        
ca1:    b16cmp GainInYaw,Temp
        brge ma1                        ;enter ESC throttle range calibration?

        ldi Counter,2                   ;yes, flash led 2 times

.......

        b16mov MotorOut1,RxInCollective         ;output collective to all ESC's
        b16mov MotorOut2,RxInCollective
        b16mov MotorOut3,RxInCollective
        b16mov MotorOut4,RxInCollective
Christian
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